13 hours ago, Daeglan said:

Umm not actually true. For example the ceromonial swords used in ceromonies with the queen are REAL swords. Very finely crafted. I would happily use one in combat. Just because they are ceremonial does not mean they are a cheap wall hanger. My Katana would pass the muster to be used in a japanese ceremony. It also is a combat weapon.

The swords traditionally used in Knighting ceremonies back in the day weren't "special" ceremonial swords. They were the ones the new knights would use in battle. So the look of the sword used in a knighting ceremony is irrelevant, and has no actual bearing on the ceremony itself. Any sword can be used to Knight someone. It doesn't require a "special" one. The ones used now, are, to my knowledge, unsharpened, as is the case with most military swords used for "Dress". As such, regardless of the quality of construction, they are non-functional . The lightsabers used in the Knighting ceremony for Padawans graduating to full Knighthood weren't "Special" lightsabers either. The master knighing the new Jedi used the lightsaber he used in his day-to-day life . A true "ceremonial" blade was a blade designed specifically for certain ceremonial functions , such as sacrifice . A sword used for Knighting is not specially designed for that. It's just a sword.

13 hours ago, Absol197 said:

As would my Hsing-I dragon sword (well, not a Japanese ceremony, but a Chinese one, certainly). If I sharpened it, which I don't want to do, because I like to practice with it, and chien techniques require your fingers to get REALLY close to the blade on occasion . Coincidentally, that sword is ALSO black-nickel plated. Apparently I have a thing for black nickel-plated accoutrements...

Yes, but as it stands, said blade is non-functional because it does lack a sharp edge. And, even then, traditionally, such a sword is primarily intended as a functional weapon , not a ceremonial one,

1 hour ago, Tramp Graphics said:

The swords traditionally used in Knighting ceremonies back in the day weren't "special" ceremonial swords. They were the ones the new knights would use in battle. So the look of the sword used in a knighting ceremony is irrelevant, and has no actual bearing on the ceremony itself. Any sword can be used to Knight someone. It doesn't require a "special" one. The ones used now, are, to my knowledge, unsharpened, as is the case with most military swords used for "Dress". As such, regardless of the quality of construction, they are non-functional . The lightsabers used in the Knighting ceremony for Padawans graduating to full Knighthood weren't "Special" lightsabers either. The master knighing the new Jedi used the lightsaber he used in his day-to-day life . A true "ceremonial" blade was a blade designed specifically for certain ceremonial functions , such as sacrifice . A sword used for Knighting is not specially designed for that. It's just a sword.

Yes, but as it stands, said blade is non-functional because it does lack a sharp edge. And, even then, traditionally, such a sword is primarily intended as a functional weapon , not a ceremonial one,

That's the most irrelevant thing that you've posted in this thread so far. And if you aren't able to discern that it's irrelevant... you might want to PM somebody and ask them before posting, or maybe and this has happened before you may need to explain how your "logical" argument is tangentially related to the discussion. My recommendation is that you should try to bring your contributions to this thread back on topic (rather than taking tangents of of tangent) or bow out of the conversation.

23 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

That's the most irrelevant thing that you've posted in this thread so far. And if you aren't able to discern that it's irrelevant... you might want to PM somebody and ask them before posting, or maybe and this has happened before you may need to explain how your "logical" argument is tangentially related to the discussion. My recommendation is that you should try to bring your contributions to this thread back on topic (rather than taking tangents of of tangent) or bow out of the conversation.

Rereading this it came off a lot harsher than I intended. The point was talking about ceremonial weapons is a slight stretch, talking about real weapons being ceremonial certified for today's traditional ceremonies is on topic, talking about using whatever was on hand for ceremonies well yeah if you can't do better you use whatever's available, but how does that relate to a deliberately "fancy" (stand in word for unique and pop) providing/not providing a social bonus.

If you want an in game official example of a "real"/non-ceremonial lightsaber providing a social benefit the darksaber (dawn of rebellion) provides precedent, and it's actually a pretty sucky lightsaber in terms of combat stats. I'd argue Mace Windu's lightsaber should provide a social bonus, because electrum and the rare purple blade because of those qualities to someone with a passing familiarity with lightsabers and for people without a passing familiarity it would be a "wow that dude has a lightsaber"

25 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

Rereading this it came off a lot harsher than I intended. The point was talking about ceremonial weapons is a slight stretch, talking about real weapons being ceremonial certified for today's traditional ceremonies is on topic, talking about using whatever was on hand for ceremonies well yeah if you can't do better you use whatever's available, but how does that relate to a deliberately "fancy" (stand in word for unique and pop) providing/not providing a social bonus.

If you want an in game official example of a "real"/non-ceremonial lightsaber providing a social benefit the darksaber (dawn of rebellion) provides precedent, and it's actually a pretty sucky lightsaber in terms of combat stats. I'd argue Mace Windu's lightsaber should provide a social bonus, because electrum and the rare purple blade because of those qualities to someone with a passing familiarity with lightsabers and for people without a passing familiarity it would be a "wow that dude has a lightsaber"

The hilts of both Mace Windu’s saber and the Dark Saber, as well as any other “cosmetic embellishments” on lightsaber hilts are already covered in the rules through the Superior Hilt Personalization attachment. Per page 200 of theF&D core rule book, It specifically covers things like rare metals, precious gems, custom grips, and locking switches, among others. In game terms this provides the Superior quality to the weapon. That is your “finely embellished” lightsaber.

15 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

The hilts of both Mace Windu’s saber and the Dark Saber, as well as any other “cosmetic embellishments” on lightsaber hilts are already covered in the rules through the Superior Hilt Personalization attachment. Per page 200 of theF&D core rule book, It specifically covers things like rare metals, precious gems, custom grips, and locking switches, among others. In game terms this provides the Superior quality to the weapon. That is your “finely embellished” lightsaber.

You are conflating fluff for mechanics. That attachment has big mechanical benefits by granting the lightsaber Superior. Almost everything in this game has a fluff entry followed by a mechanical one. In this case the mechanical entry does not as a rule confer a social benefit. A PC would have to convince a GM that the superior weapon could grant the free Advantage on a social check (entirely possible). It’s also reasonable for a GM to allow a PC to construct a hilt that confers a social benefit (for 1 or 2 Advantage during construction) but does not make it more effective at combat (like Superior does).

1 or 2 Advantage in construction could also be spent on making the hilt easier to modify attachments on giving a small bonus (+1 boost) to mod checks on attachments

EDIT: Also the Darksaber does not have Superior and grants specific social benefits when dealing with Mandalorians. (In other words it does not have Superior Hilt Personalization and cannot have it because it has no free HP).

3 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Yes, but as it stands, said blade is non-functional because it does lack a sharp edge. And, even then, traditionally, such a sword is primarily intended as a functional weapon , not a ceremonial one,

Way to demonstrate you dont know anything about the subject. In addition to not being relevant as Elias noted.

Maybe for 2 Advantage:

- Gain 1 success on Discipline checks to recover Strain if the lightsaber was used.

- Gain 1 success in attempts to mod any attachments on the hilt.

5 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Way to demonstrate you dont know anything about the subject. In addition to not being relevant as Elias noted.

I own two fully functional swords. And for several years was heavily involved with medieval recreation. I also religiously watch Forged in Fire , and one of the most important fact in making a functional blade is having a sharp edge and the ability to maintain said edge. Without that edge, it’s just a pretty wall hanging.

38 minutes ago, Jedi Ronin said:

You are conflating fluff for mechanics. That attachment has big mechanical benefits by granting the lightsaber Superior. Almost everything in this game has a fluff entry followed by a mechanical one. In this case the mechanical entry does not as a rule confer a social benefit. A PC would have to convince a GM that the superior weapon could grant the free Advantage on a social check (entirely possible). It’s also reasonable for a GM to allow a PC to construct a hilt that confers a social benefit (for 1 or 2 Advantage during construction) but does not make it more effective at combat (like Superior does).

1 or 2 Advantage in construction could also be spent on making the hilt easier to modify attachments on giving a small bonus (+1 boost) to mod checks on attachments

EDIT: Also the Darksaber does not have Superior and grants specific social benefits when dealing with Mandalorians. (In other words it does not have Superior Hilt Personalization and cannot have it because it has no free HP).

Oh, I agree that Superior Hilts Personalization doesn’t confer a social benefit. My point, though, is that it does specifically cover any such “cosmetic” embellishments.

1 minute ago, Tramp Graphics said:

I own two fully functional swords.

Oh, I agree that Superior Hilts Personalization doesn’t confer a social benefit. My point, though, is that it does specifically cover any such “cosmetic” embellishments.

And how is that relevant to the darksaber which does not have superior hilt personalization and does confer a social benefit?

54 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

The hilts of both Mace Windu’s saber and the Dark Saber, as well as any other “cosmetic embellishments” on lightsaber hilts are already covered in the rules through the Superior Hilt Personalization attachment. Per page 200 of theF&D core rule book, It specifically covers things like rare metals, precious gems, custom grips, and locking switches, among others. In game terms this provides the Superior quality to the weapon. That is your “finely embellished” lightsaber.

6 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

And how is that relevant to the darksaber which does not have superior hilt personalization and does confer a social benefit?

The Dark Saber is a unique and very Ancient Artifact . It wasn’t created with that “benefit”. It gained that benefit centuries later. So it’s not an inherent result of its construction, rather it is something that the Mandalorians bestowed upon it later as it grew into what it is today. Its value and its significance is due to its history not its construction.

8 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

The Dark Saber is a unique and very Ancient Artifact . It wasn’t created with that “benefit”. It gained that benefit centuries later. So it’s not an inherent result of its construction, rather it is something that the Mandalorians bestowed upon it later as it grew into what it is today. Its value and its significance is due to its history not its construction.

So in other words youre now claiming that your previous statement was not relevant and you shouldn't have claimed that the darksaber had superior?

15 hours ago, Daeglan said:

As far as i can tell i was asking for suggestions of appropriate things to spend 2 adv on. So far what i have gotten from you is the shooting down of pretty much any idea suggested by others. I am not sure why you are here...other than to attempt to rain on other peoples parades. Acting like anything that deviates from raw is verboten. Even if it is based on existing items in the game already at that power level.

Ie i didnt really have ideas hense asking.

I've never suggested that everything should be RAW. I've offered several ideas that are not RAW. Other people have offered some other ideas, and I've discussed a subset if those. None of that is a personal insult to you. I've talked about what would work at my table, not yours. I've said that I would want any bonus gained to be balanced with what is in the books and make narrative sense.

The Ceremonial Blade is actually quite similar to the disguised quality you can get for two advantage. But you've said that is boring and does not fit your character. But to be balanced, it is a good guide as to power level and usefulness. I'd totally allow something similar with a reasonable justification. "Looks Broken". PC gets a boost die to convince NPCs the lightsaber is a broken antique when NPCs are trying to take it away.

1 hour ago, EliasWindrider said:

Rereading this it came off a lot harsher than I intended. The point was talking about ceremonial weapons is a slight stretch, talking about real weapons being ceremonial certified for today's traditional ceremonies is on topic, talking about using whatever was on hand for ceremonies well yeah if you can't do better you use whatever's available, but how does that relate to a deliberately "fancy" (stand in word for unique and pop) providing/not providing a social bonus.

If you want an in game official example of a "real"/non-ceremonial lightsaber providing a social benefit the darksaber (dawn of rebellion) provides precedent, and it's actually a pretty sucky lightsaber in terms of combat stats. I'd argue Mace Windu's lightsaber should provide a social bonus, because electrum and the rare purple blade because of those qualities to someone with a passing familiarity with lightsabers and for people without a passing familiarity it would be a "wow that dude has a lightsaber"

“Ceremonial” refers to actual ceremonies the item is used for. Looking fancy doesn’t make something ceremonial; however, a ceremonial item can usually be recognized because it looks fancy. The Darksaber (note: it’s ‘the’ Darksaber, not ‘a’ Darksaber, this is a unique weapon) may not be ceremonial, but it is a badge of office of sorts - it’s not just a weapon, it’s also a symbol. You can’t create a weapon to be a symbol without there being something it’s the symbol of. Getting a few Adv on a crafting check can’t provide symbolic value.

The problem with a weapon getting a social bonus because it looks unusual is that merely looking unusual doesn’t provoke a uniform reaction. Some might be impressed by it, others might think you’re a show-off, others still may not care at all, and there may even be those who think the appearance means something but get confused about what that might be. This is were actual ceremony or symbolism help out: the let others identify the meaning of the item’s appearance, so they’ll tend to react the same way to it or at least recognize it’s specific significance.

On a more positive note, I do think some of the suggestions @TheShard made here could work, since they don’t rely on a visual provoking a specific effect. The benefits might be reaching a bit when it comes to plausibility but they can at least be attributed to a mechanical quality of the hilt, which is in line with being the result of a crafting check working out particularly well.

2 hours ago, EliasWindrider said:

I'd argue Mace Windu's lightsaber should provide a social bonus, because electrum and the rare purple blade because of those qualities to someone with a passing familiarity with lightsabers and for people without a passing familiarity it would be a "wow that dude has a lightsaber"

This is what I've been talking about too. It makes sense both narratively, mechanically and in terms of balance for a lightsaber hilt to confer a social benefit under certain circumstances. With only 2 advantage, I'd say the scope had to be narrow.

2 minutes ago, TheSapient said:

This is what I've been talking about too. It makes sense both narratively, mechanically and in terms of balance for a lightsaber holy to confer a social benefit under certain circumstances. With only 2 advantage, I'd say the scope had to be narrow.

I'd argue that a "wow that dude has a lightsaber" reaction should involve a boost die or two in social interactions (in place of the normally narrowly focused advantage) but I don't think we're that far apart on this.

29 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

So in other words youre now claiming that your previous statement was not relevant and you shouldn't have claimed that the darksaber had superior?

Not at all. I may have been initially mistaken about the Dark Saber having the Superior quality, given that I don’t have Dawn of Rebellion, but that makes no difference regarding Mace Windu’s lightsaber. Mace Windu’s lightsaber simply has an electrum finish, which, per RAW, falls under the purview of the Superior Hilt Personalization attachment. It has no special social significance, it’s just a cosmetic embellishment.

10 minutes ago, TheSapient said:

This is what I've been talking about too. It makes sense both narratively, mechanically and in terms of balance for a lightsaber holy to confer a social benefit under certain circumstances. With only 2 advantage, I'd say the scope had to be narrow.

I disagree. The Elect finish is already covered by the attachment I mentioned above by RAW. It doesn’t grant any special social benefits.

4 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

I'd argue that a "wow that dude has a lightsaber" reaction should involve a boost die or two in social interactions (in place of the normally narrowly focused advantage) but I don't think we're that far apart on this.

Maybe, but that could be with any lightsaber, it’s not something that would need to be particularly special or unique to a specific one through its construction. That’s because lightsabers weee already seen as badges of office for the Jedi.

7 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Not at all. I may have been initially mistaken about the Dark Saber having the Superior quality, given that I don’t have Dawn of Rebellion, but that makes no difference regarding Mace Windu’s lightsaber. Mace Windu’s lightsaber simply has an electrum finish, which, per RAW, falls under the purview of the Superior Hilt Personalization attachment. It has no special social significance, it’s just a cosmetic embellishment.

I disagree. The Elect finish is already covered by the attachment I mentioned above by RAW. It doesn’t grant any special social benefits.

Maybe, but that could be with any lightsaber, it’s not something that would need to be particularly special or unique to a specific one through its construction.

Because of what it means/signifies historically in universe any lightsaber with an electrum finish should impress or instill a sense of wonder in most jedi or in universe jedi fanboys. To any Sith it would mark the wielder as a threat, whether they want to kill that jedi even more than most or whether they want to give him a wide berth would vary on a case by case basis

7 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

I'd argue that a "wow that dude has a lightsaber" reaction should involve a boost die or two in social interactions (in place of the normally narrowly focused advantage) but I don't think we're that far apart on this.

I’m not sure why this would be meaningfully different from “wow that Wookiee can snap a droideka in half with one hand tied behind his back” or “wow that dude has a jetpack and a flamethrower” or even “wow that dude is levitating my speeder with the power of his mind”. Some people will say ‘I have to meet this dude’ and others will say ‘I really don’t want to meet that dude’. You can’t put a consistent reaction on that.

6 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

I'd argue that a "wow that dude has a lightsaber" reaction should involve a boost die or two in social interactions (in place of the normally narrowly focused advantage) but I don't think we're that far apart on this.

Sure, I agree. Pulling out a lightsaber will often change the narrative in ways that translate into mechanical effects. This happened at my table yesterday, as a matter of fact. In a community that loved the Jedi, revealing lightsabers gave 2 boost dice on our social checks.

But that is all independent of any proposed crafting bonus discussed here. Such a bonus should add to whatever the saber is already getting.

2 minutes ago, nameless ronin said:

I’m not sure why this would be meaningfully different from “wow that Wookiee can snap a droideka in half with one hand tied behind his back” or “wow that dude has a jetpack and a flamethrower” or even “wow that dude is levitating my speeder with the power of his mind”. Some people will say ‘I have to meet this dude’ and others will say ‘I really don’t want to meet that dude’. You can’t put a consistent reaction on that.

This would be the "consolation prize" when the narrow focus group social benefit was not in play

12 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

I disagree. The Elect finish is already covered by the attachment I mentioned above by RAW. It doesn’t grant any special social benefits.

I don't agree. The Electrum finish wasn't about rarity of the material not quality if craftsmanship. It was about established symbolism.

Now, I don't think that a PC adding an Electrum finish would get the bonus that someone who EARNED it would get. But the right crowd would appreciate it.

15 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Not at all. I may have been initially mistaken about the Dark Saber having the Superior quality, given that I don’t have Dawn of Rebellion, but that makes no difference regarding Mace Windu’s lightsaber. Mace Windu’s lightsaber simply has an electrum finish, which, per RAW, falls under the purview of the Superior Hilt Personalization attachment. It has no special social significance, it’s just a cosmetic embellishment.

I disagree. The Elect finish is already covered by the attachment I mentioned above by RAW. It doesn’t grant any special social benefits.

Maybe, but that could be with any lightsaber, it’s not something that would need to be particularly special or unique to a specific one through its construction. That’s because lightsabers weee already seen as badges of office for the Jedi.

That isn’t RAW. If a player wants to have a lightsaber that looks cool or elaborate with valuable materials the custom hilt is not a good way to go about it. That’s a narrative fluff “benefit” if the PC/GM want. The custom hilt is all about Superior (RAW). There’s much easier and less expensive ways to make a fancy looking lightsaber. It’s like saying you want leather seats in your car so that’s means you have to buy a Ferrari.

9 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

Because of what it means/signifies historically in universe any lightsaber with an electrum finish should impress or instill a sense of wonder in most jedi or in universe jedi fanboys. To any Sith it would mark the wielder as a threat, whether they want to kill that jedi even more than most or whether they want to give him a wide berth would vary on a case by case basis

Mace’s amethyst lightsaber with the electrum finish was his second one, which he built when he was already a Master. He used many years of experience to craft a superior weapon and the electrum finish was an indication of his being a senior member of the High Council. In rather stark contrast, this would be @Daeglan ‘s characters first lightsaber, as a fledgling Jedi (at least that’s how I understand it). I doubt I’d be impressed if I saw this and knew of electrum’s significance. I’d certainly wonder how and why this person is walking around with such an item though.

9 minutes ago, nameless ronin said:

Mace’s amethyst lightsaber with the electrum finish was his second one, which he built when he was already a Master. He used many years of experience to craft a superior weapon and the electrum finish was an indication of his being a senior member of the High Council. In rather stark contrast, this would be @Daeglan ‘s characters first lightsaber, as a fledgling Jedi (at least that’s how I understand it). I doubt I’d be impressed if I saw this and knew of electrum’s significance. I’d certainly wonder how and why this person is walking around with such an item though.

If you knew what electrum meant and you saw someone with an electrum lightsaber and didn't know anything else about them, what would your first impression of them be?

4 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

If you knew what electrum meant and you saw someone with an electrum lightsaber and didn't know anything else about them, what would your first impression of them be?

I’d just think it looked nice, but wouldn’t place any special significance on it.

20 minutes ago, Jedi Ronin said:

That isn’t RAW. If a player wants to have a lightsaber that looks cool or elaborate with valuable materials the custom hilt is not a good way to go about it. That’s a narrative fluff “benefit” if the PC/GM want. The custom hilt is all about Superior (RAW). There’s much easier and less expensive ways to make a fancy looking lightsaber. It’s like saying you want leather seats in your car so that’s means you have to buy a Ferrari.

The RAW specifically says that rare metals and precious gems adorning a Hilt are covered under the Superior Hilt Personalization, whether it’s ”fluff” or not is besides the point. They only confer the benefits given in the RAW rather than any “social” benefits.

23 minutes ago, TheSapient said:

I don't agree. The Electrum finish wasn't about rarity of the material not quality if craftsmanship. It was about established symbolism.

Now, I don't think that a PC adding an Electrum finish would get the bonus that someone who EARNED it would get. But the right crowd would appreciate it.

Yes it is about the rarity of the metal. Electrum is a very rare and precious metal, up there with gold and platinum. That is why it is so rarely used. That is also why it falls under the Superior Hilt Personalization. It denotes a saber of very high quality construction, which, in turn makes a weapon with superior functionality.

35 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

Because of what it means/signifies historically in universe any lightsaber with an electrum finish should impress or instill a sense of wonder in most jedi or in universe jedi fanboys. To any Sith it would mark the wielder as a threat, whether they want to kill that jedi even more than most or whether they want to give him a wide berth would vary on a case by case basis

I disagree. Yes, it has some minor significance to the Prequel era Jedi, as an “award” of sorts to certain Jedi masters, but other than that, it simply shows that the weapon is of very high quality construction built by a master. Also remember that Palpatine also used electrum in the construction of his lightsaber Hilt, along with Phryyk and other rare metals, not because of any “social” effects, but because of the qualities of the metals themselves.