2 minutes ago, Absol197 said:

Very true, it does add those Boost dice because that's the primary function. But just because that's its primary function doesn't preclude it having a secondary function. If it did, then it wouldn't even have a weapon profile, because it wouldn't be able to be used as a weapon. The Staff of Office is, based on its profile, a sub-par weapon assuredly, but it can be used as one as a secondary function.

This would simply be the opposite. Primary function to be a functional weapon, but it looks nice enough that it provides a sub-par bonus to a single social check in certain situations. Designed to be a weapon and works best as one, but is fancy enough to be a conversation starter and maybe get the character in the door when a simple tube of silver metal might not.

Once again, if you disagree, that's entirely reasonable. At the end of this, whether any one of us believes that option is logical or not doesn't matter. It's a potential option in a thread asking for options. If @Daeglan decides its the one he wants to pursue, then it's between him and his GM. If not, then we need to start trying to come up with other options.

The Staff of Office has a weapon profile because it’s a large, relatively heavy, blunt object, with a weighted end. As such, getting hit with it would logically do damage.

A Ceremonial blade is also a ceremonial object with a primarily social function, but it still has a sharp edge which can cut. The point, however, is that these “weapons” were never intended to be used for combat.

38 minutes ago, Absol197 said:

Well, let's take it back to the origin of the bonus in question, the embellishment on the armor crafting. How is armor crafted with this bonus for 2 Advantage adding a bonus to Charm checks? It has to be the look, because helping you be suave and personable is not a normal function of armor.

When you roll on an armor-crafting check, you goal is to make a functional suit of armor. If your dice roll 1 Success and 3 Advantage, you've succeeded at making a suit of armor that protects you from injury, as you set out to do. Plus, with those 3 Advantage, you can go "above and beyond" your initial goal. Now, you could spend that extra effort to make the armor BETTER at protecting you, spending them on options to increase Soak, or Defense, or maybe add a hard point to make the armor more customizable after the fact. Or, you could choose to direct that effort towards making the new armor you crafted look exceptionally nice. You're forsaking some of the function you could have gotten for form, and that provides a real, if minor, bonus to certain checks when form is relevant.

This is the same thing, more or less. Yes, I agree that having a weapon, especially one as small as a lightsaber, provide a similar bonus is stretching it, but I don't think it's such a stretch that an exception can't be made for a good player who is not going to abuse the system. If the character chooses to spend more money on their lightsaber hilt than they have to (remember, the other potential option for 2 Advantage could easily be to have the cost decreased) to make it look especially nice, they have a functional hilt (their primary goal with the attempt) that looks much nicer than they had anticipated it would.

I think the main difference between us is where we draw the line. You feel that providing such a bonus to something like a lightsaber hilt is stretching it, but can be acceptable. I feel that providing such a bonus to armor is already stretching it as far as I want to allow. For me the craft check is a check to determine whether you manage to build a functional item and how well you manage this. It’s a check using a single skill. That skill refers to the crafter’s technical proficiency. There isn’t really an artistical component to the check, or even an aesthetical one - we are talking about crafting functional items. And although it’s a stretch, the look of an armor can for me be part of the function. I’m thinking about law enforcement uniforms for instance, that have to convey that the wearer has authority and can be trusted by the public. There’s also the “form follows function” design principle that I can see being relevant: getting the overall shape of armour right so it’s comfortable, right for the specific terrain, or in this case gives the wearer the desired interpersonal ‘vibe’ while also providing protection from attacks and/or the environment requires technical skill, because those goals are definitely at odds. I don’t think that still holds true if we try to extend it to something like a lightsaber hilt. It’s a stretch for armour, for me it doesn’t stretch to lightsaber hilts. I’m happy to agree to disagree, but I do think it’s worth explaining why I disagree. I also feel it’s better for the game not to give too good a consolation prize to those making checks with low skill ranks and characteristics and getting relatively poor results because of it, but I certainly admit that’s even more a matter of preference.

34 minutes ago, nameless ronin said:

I think the main difference between us is where we draw the line. You feel that providing such a bonus to something like a lightsaber hilt is stretching it, but can be acceptable. I feel that providing such a bonus to armor is already stretching it as far as I want to allow. For me the craft check is a check to determine whether you manage to build a functional item and how well you manage this. It’s a check using a single skill. That skill refers to the crafter’s technical proficiency. There isn’t really an artistical component to the check, or even an aesthetical one - we are talking about crafting functional items. And although it’s a stretch, the look of an armor can for me be part of the function. I’m thinking about law enforcement uniforms for instance, that have to convey that the wearer has authority and can be trusted by the public. There’s also the “form follows function” design principle that I can see being relevant: getting the overall shape of armour right so it’s comfortable, right for the specific terrain, or in this case gives the wearer the desired interpersonal ‘vibe’ while also providing protection from attacks and/or the environment requires technical skill, because those goals are definitely at odds. I don’t think that still holds true if we try to extend it to something like a lightsaber hilt. It’s a stretch for armour, for me it doesn’t stretch to lightsaber hilts. I’m happy to agree to disagree, but I do think it’s worth explaining why I disagree. I also feel it’s better for the game not to give too good a consolation prize to those making checks with low skill ranks and characteristics and getting relatively poor results because of it, but I certainly admit that’s even more a matter of preference.

Fair enough .

As a final example, I'll use a personal one from my high school days: musical instruments. I play (or, I suppose, played) the saxophone, and I was rather good at it. When I got accepted into the Symphonic Band (the highest band in our high school), my parents got me a new horn. I chose to get one that had a shiny, black nickel plating that looked, in my opinion, AWESOME! It was a nice, well-made horn, but the extra expense that went into the special nickel plating could easily have gone into buying a horn that had a better sound.

Now, I am not an exceptionally charming person in real life, and although I feel I've gotten better at being personable in the past few years, in high school I was really bad at it. However, whenever I got out that particular horn, people would notice it and come up and ask about it. It stood out among all the other instruments in the band, and through no action on my own opened up conversations that would not have happened otherwise, due to my rather introverted nature.

I feel this is comparable - that saxophone was still primarily designed to be a musical instrument, and it was in fact better than my first horn. But an even better horn that functioned better at its primary purpose wouldn't naturally draw the eye and open up the possibility of those social interactions, because it doesn't have that unique feature that makes it stand out. It's a minor embellishment that makes the item unique (or at least more so than it would be otherwise) that has a social effect by virtue of its uniqueness. I'm simply transitioning that personal experience and saying, yeah, I can see a situation where a lightsaber with a unique embellishment could function perfectly fine as a weapon (like it was intended to be), but also open up the door for social interactions when people notice it.

But I'll leave it there. Thank you for explaining your position .

EDIT: Speaking of, out of the three saxophones I've owned, that's the only one I still have. I really need to get it out and play sometime; I'll probably need to get some new reeds... *wanders off to find some reeds*

7 hours ago, nameless ronin said:

Honestly, it doesn’t even matter whether it’s intended for combat as well or not. All that matters is whether it’s meant to have a ceremonial function, because that means it will be built for that purpose. The point of a Staff of Office is that it’s recognized as such. The crafter who made it, made it so whoever sees it identifies it as one. This is not a happy accident resulting from doing an excellent job building a random staff; if you want to get a Staff of Office you need to craft a Staff of Office and get a Success, not build any staff and get a couple of Adv on top of a Success.

Happy accident/random... if you're rolling dice to determine the success of a crafting check then yes it is random/a happy accident if you succeed. That could have been your intention all along and if you failed the skill check you could try again and again until you succeed, but the same can be said if your goal from the outset was to get at least 2 net advantage and 1 net success on an armor/lightsaber crafting check so you could build in a special embellishment. There is no difference there, also specifical embellishment provides a smaller bonus than a staff of office or kamperdine armored tailored jacket (far horizons), so it is *intended* as a secondary function and does not step on the toes as it were of staff of office or the kamperdine armored tailored jacket.

8 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

"cool looking" and built primarily for ceremony are two different things. Conan's sword is "cool looking", but is primarily a functional weapon. A ceremonial blade r Staff of Office are primarily ceremonial , not intended for combat.

I don't think conan's "cool looking" sword would be very functional in real life (I think the funky blade shape would interfere with its use), but it was functional in the fictional world/movie and since he found it in a rather elaborate tomb, it was very likely the signature weapon of a king denoting his status as such. I also think your use of the word primarily is completely irrelevant to an rpg's weapon and armor crafting rules.

8 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Yes, there are. However, those "ceremonial weapons" are primarily, or almost purely, ceremonial, with no real combat value . Any potential combat value is of little concern, and most would find using such "weapons" in combat to be abusive to said item because they're not built for it; they're built to look pretty. That's the key difference here.

Umm not actually true. For example the ceromonial swords used in ceromonies with the queen are REAL swords. Very finely crafted. I would happily use one in combat. Just because they are ceremonial does not mean they are a cheap wall hanger. My Katana would pass the muster to be used in a japanese ceremony. It also is a combat weapon.

Just now, Daeglan said:

Umm not actually true. For example the ceromonial swords used in ceromonies with the queen are REAL swords. Very finely crafted. I would happily use one in combat. Just because they are ceremonial does not mean they are a cheap wall hanger. My Katana would pass the muster to be used in a japanese ceremony. It also is a combat weapon. 

As would my Hsing-I dragon sword (well, not a Japanese ceremony, but a Chinese one, certainly). If I sharpened it, which I don't want to do, because I like to practice with it, and chien techniques require your fingers to get REALLY close to the blade on occasion . Coincidentally, that sword is ALSO black-nickel plated. Apparently I have a thing for black nickel-plated accoutrements...

6 hours ago, Absol197 said:

Fair enough .

As a final example, I'll use a personal one from my high school days: musical instruments. I play (or, I suppose, played) the saxophone, and I was rather good at it. When I got accepted into the Symphonic Band (the highest band in our high school), my parents got me a new horn. I chose to get one that had a shiny, black nickel plating that looked, in my opinion, AWESOME! It was a nice, well-made horn, but the extra expense that went into the special nickel plating could easily have gone into buying a horn that had a better sound.

Now, I am not an exceptionally charming person in real life, and although I feel I've gotten better at being personable in the past few years, in high school I was really bad at it. However, whenever I got out that particular horn, people would notice it and come up and ask about it. It stood out among all the other instruments in the band, and through no action on my own opened up conversations that would not have happened otherwise, due to my rather introverted nature.

I feel this is comparable - that saxophone was still primarily designed to be a musical instrument, and it was in fact better than my first horn. But an even better horn that functioned better at its primary purpose wouldn't naturally draw the eye and open up the possibility of those social interactions, because it doesn't have that unique feature that makes it stand out. It's a minor embellishment that makes the item unique (or at least more so than it would be otherwise) that has a social effect by virtue of its uniqueness. I'm simply transitioning that personal experience and saying, yeah, I can see a situation where a lightsaber with a unique embellishment could function perfectly fine as a weapon (like it was intended to be), but also open up the door for social interactions when people notice it.

But I'll leave it there. Thank you for explaining your position .

EDIT: Speaking of, out of the three saxophones I've owned, that's the only one I still have. I really need to get it out and play sometime; I'll probably need to get some new reeds... *wanders off to find some reeds*

That is an awesome example of the custome paint job talent in action.

2 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

That is an awesome example of the custome paint job talent in action.

Naw, because I had nothing to do with the paint job . I definitely think it's an example of a well-crafted piece of equipment providing a minor social bonus due to snazzy crafting. Note that my natural lack of charm ensured that the conversations sparked by my nifty saxophone rarely lasted long (i.e. I didn't get any Successes), they simply happened because the equipment gave me the spare Advantage .

2 minutes ago, Absol197 said:

Naw, because I had nothing to do with the paint job . I definitely think it's an example of a well-crafted piece of equipment providing a minor social bonus due to snazzy crafting.

Yes. But the effect is similar to the talent. The fancy instrument openned conversational doors.

Just now, Daeglan said:

Yes. But the effect is similar to the talent. The fancy instrument openned conversational doors.

True, I'll give you that .

14 minutes ago, Absol197 said:

As would my Hsing-I dragon sword (well, not a Japanese ceremony, but a Chinese one, certainly). If I sharpened it, which I don't want to do, because I like to practice with it, and chien techniques require your fingers to get REALLY close to the blade on occasion . Coincidentally, that sword is ALSO black-nickel plated. Apparently I have a thing for black nickel-plated accoutrements...

You're not the only one, I was looking at lightsabers from ultrasabers with (optional) nickle plating (e.g. the guardian https://ultrasabers.com/product/the-guardian/ and the consular https://ultrasabers.com/product/consular/ ), it's pretty snazzy, ultimately I decided on an archon v 2.1 https://ultrasabers.com/product/archon-v2-1/ as a form follows function choice, because the archon vs 2.1 was rated highly for spinning and dialing. Note while I made the choice (subject to xhange) I haven't bought it yet, because I'm planning to buy 2 sabers in about 4 years (i.e. for my son's 5th birthday) so we can dial. What I'm planning to get my son, Samuel L., is an electrum wind https://ultrasabers.com/product/electrum-wind/ a.k.a. Mace Windu's a.k.a. Samuel L Jackson's lightsaber because I am totally playing up the Mace Windu connection his entire life.

By the way, I figured that given the topic it would be appropriate to link to lightsaber hints for sale (I have no financial interest in the company and a lot of fanboys say their gilts are plain or slightly too big compared to other company's product but I'm going for something rugged because ultrasabers is supposedly the combat lightsaber specialists)

7 hours ago, Absol197 said:

Fair enough .

As a final example, I'll use a personal one from my high school days: musical instruments. I play (or, I suppose, played) the saxophone, and I was rather good at it. When I got accepted into the Symphonic Band (the highest band in our high school), my parents got me a new horn. I chose to get one that had a shiny, black nickel plating that looked, in my opinion, AWESOME! It was a nice, well-made horn, but the extra expense that went into the special nickel plating could easily have gone into buying a horn that had a better sound.

Now, I am not an exceptionally charming person in real life, and although I feel I've gotten better at being personable in the past few years, in high school I was really bad at it. However, whenever I got out that particular horn, people would notice it and come up and ask about it. It stood out among all the other instruments in the band, and through no action on my own opened up conversations that would not have happened otherwise, due to my rather introverted nature.

I feel this is comparable - that saxophone was still primarily designed to be a musical instrument, and it was in fact better than my first horn. But an even better horn that functioned better at its primary purpose wouldn't naturally draw the eye and open up the possibility of those social interactions, because it doesn't have that unique feature that makes it stand out. It's a minor embellishment that makes the item unique (or at least more so than it would be otherwise) that has a social effect by virtue of its uniqueness. I'm simply transitioning that personal experience and saying, yeah, I can see a situation where a lightsaber with a unique embellishment could function perfectly fine as a weapon (like it was intended to be), but also open up the door for social interactions when people notice it.

But I'll leave it there. Thank you for explaining your position .

EDIT: Speaking of, out of the three saxophones I've owned, that's the only one I still have. I really need to get it out and play sometime; I'll probably need to get some new reeds... *wanders off to find some reeds*

I think it is worth noting, though, that this advantage was applicable only under very specific conditions. The saxophone had to be displayed, and in a group that would care about the embellishment.

It is harder, too, to imagine that such a thing would be as noticeable on something as small as a standard hilt. I think if your hilt had symbols from a certain organization, and you were displaying the hilt to a member, you could get some bonus.

1 minute ago, TheSapient said:

I think it is worth noting, though, that this advantage was applicable only under very specific conditions. The saxophone had to be displayed, and in a group that would care about the embellishment.

It is harder, too, to imagine that such a thing would be as noticeable on something as small as a standard hilt. I think if your hilt had symbols from a certain organization, and you were displaying the hilt to a member, you could get some bonus.

Certainly circumstance plays a part. Clearly, a bonus Advantage to Charm checks will do you no good when you're currently making a Deception check to convince that platoon of Stormtroopers that, no, sir, this is not a lightsaber hanging on my belt, it's a decorative ornament. Yes, sir, I hang random ornamentation from my belt. It makes me feel special. No, not Force-sensitive-special, just... you know what? Screw it. *fwoom!*

49 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

You're not the only one, I was looking at lightsabers from ultrasabers with (optional) nickle plating (e.g. the guardian https://ultrasabers.com/product/the-guardian/ and the consular https://ultrasabers.com/product/consular/ ), it's pretty snazzy, ultimately I decided on an archon v 2.1 https://ultrasabers.com/product/archon-v2-1/ as a form follows function choice, because the archon vs 2.1 was rated highly for spinning and dialing. Note while I made the choice (subject to xhange) I haven't bought it yet, because I'm planning to buy 2 sabers in about 4 years (i.e. for my son's 5th birthday) so we can dial. What I'm planning to get my son, Samuel L., is an electrum wind https://ultrasabers.com/product/electrum-wind/ a.k.a. Mace Windu's a.k.a. Samuel L Jackson's lightsaber because I am totally playing up the Mace Windu connection his entire life.

By the way, I figured that given the topic it would be appropriate to link to lightsaber hints for sale (I have no financial interest in the company and a lot of fanboys say their gilts are plain or slightly too big compared to other company's product but I'm going for something rugged because ultrasabers is supposedly the combat lightsaber specialists)

I've been looking at sabers a lot too. Have you considered Electrum Sabercrafts? I think you get a ton for your money.

Anyway, I think these hobby sabers are instructive. There are a lot I think look really cool. I show them to my wife, and she just shrugs. They all look about the same to her. In universe, a lightsaber is either going to blow someone's mind or now. It is a narrow group that would care about a special embellishment.

3 minutes ago, TheSapient said:

I think it is worth noting, though, that this advantage was applicable only under very specific conditions. The saxophone had to be displayed, and in a group that would care about the embellishment.

It is harder, too, to imagine that such a thing would be as noticeable on something as small as a standard hilt. I think if your hilt had symbols from a certain organization, and you were displaying the hilt to a member, you could get some bonus.

It works for a ceremonial dagger already in the game. They are not really bigger than a lightsaber hilt. So not seeing the problem. I agree to get the benefit you have to wear it prominently. Ie you cant hidenit.

1 minute ago, Absol197 said:

Certainly circumstance plays a part. Clearly, a bonus Advantage to Charm checks will do you no good when you're currently making a Deception check to convince that platoon of Stormtroopers that, no, sir, this is not a lightsaber hanging on my belt, it's a decorative ornament. Yes, sir, I hang random ornamentation from my belt. It makes me feel special. No, not Force-sensitive-special, just... you know what? Screw it. *fwoom!*

Well, those things, of course. But I'd say that your average person isn't going to even know enough about lightsabers to be impressed by an embellishment. A car lover may like that your super car has the Mcguffin package. I'm just going to be impressed that it is a super car.

1 minute ago, TheSapient said:

Well, those things, of course. But I'd say that your average person isn't going to even know enough about lightsabers to be impressed by an embellishment. A car lover may like that your super car has the Mcguffin package. I'm just going to be impressed that it is a super car.

Sure. But the average person is still going t ok be impressed about a super car. Even if they dont know the model. Also dontnforget lightsabers have a bounty on them. A lowly slave on tatooine recognized a lightsaber. The Empire may have destroyed the reputation of the jedi. They did not wipe out all the knowledge about them.

7 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

It works for a ceremonial dagge  r already in the game. They are not really bigger than a lightsaber hilt. So not seeing the problem. I agree to get the benefit you have to wear it prominently. Ie you cant hidenit.

I mean, sure, but look at how narrow that advantage is. It is the PC saying "hey guys, this is a symbolic item for rituals or whatever. Surely you can let me keep it. Look at all the ceremonial designs". It isn't only narrow, it relies on an in-universe context where people know about blades are are meant for ceremonial purposes.

"A character adds BOOST when attempting to convince others to allow him to retain his ceremonial blade."

2 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Sure. But the average person is still going t ok be impressed about a super car. Even if they dont know the model. Also dontnforget lightsabers have a bounty on them. A lowly slave on tatooine recognized a lightsaber. The Empire may have destroyed the reputation of the jedi. They did not wipe out all the knowledge about them.

But we are trying to distinguish between a lightsaber and one with a special embellishment of some sort here. I'm saying that it is a narrow group that would care about the embellishment. The fact that is is a lightsaber is already a huge deal.

I am not asking for a free attack here. You guys act like i am asking for signature ability level power. I am not.

2 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

I am not asking for a free attack here. You guys act like i am asking for signature ability level power. I am not.

AS far as I can tell, you haven't suggested anything. As such, no one at all is commenting on any specific idea from you. I'm not your GM. It doesn't matter if I approve your request or not. I'm just talking about what I think is reasonable for 2 advantage, based on balance with officially listed options and with some sort of in-universe logic.

As I've said before, I'd allow an advantage on some social check when displayed before a certain group. Group examples might include people who worship or highly respect force users or the force itself, academics interested in artifacts, other force users, etc. It could have symbols of, say, the Black Sun, which might help you when dealing with that organization. But I wouldn't allow, say, a boost die or a free advantage on all charm checks. That is just way too good for getting 2 advantages on a crafting roll.

Of course, in my game, you wouldn't want people to see your lightsaber under most circumstances anyway. They are rare and illegal, typically wielded by those criminal Jedi that betrayed the Republic/Empire. You wouldn't set it on the counter when renting a speeder or buying rations.

As far as i can tell i was asking for suggestions of appropriate things to spend 2 adv on. So far what i have gotten from you is the shooting down of pretty much any idea suggested by others. I am not sure why you are here...other than to attempt to rain on other peoples parades. Acting like anything that deviates from raw is verboten. Even if it is based on existing items in the game already at that power level.

Ie i didnt really have ideas hense asking.

So I'll pony up some ideas...

Adding an adv to iniative checks

Adding adv to social checks

Frequent flyer- discount on cost for it to return if thrown

Ancient design - an opponent trying to decern you have a saber must make a knowledge lore check opposed by a pc's skulduggery. Adds a setback to mod the saber.

9 hours ago, TheSapient said:

I've been looking at sabers a lot too. Have you considered Electrum Sabercrafts? I think you get a ton for your money.

Anyway, I think these hobby sabers are instructive. There are a lot I think look really cool. I show them to my wife, and she just shrugs. They all look about the same to her. In universe, a lightsaber is either going to blow someone's mind or now. It is a narrow group that would care about a special embellishment.

The remnant might work for me... but I'm really looking forward a mace windu replica saber for my son.