1 hour ago, FinarinPanjoro said:

Bring your GM in on this.

I recently let one of my players spend advantage on his saber to gain a free advantage on Coercion checks when he's holding it. So maybe there's an appropriate skill it could aid (I could see Cool, Leadership, Charm, Coercion, Negotiation, maybe Discipline- though that's pretty potent for a force user). If they feel that's unbalanced it could always give a threat to another skill. It could even be other skills if it's something explained via the Force. So maybe it aids Medicine checks. Or maybe it helps with Fear checks when in hand.

This seems a good way to fit in a flavorful, but not overpowered, ability that is appropriate to your character.

I think I would limit such a thing to interactions with people who, or institutions which, hold Jedi in high esteem. I'd assign conflict for displaying a lightsaber to gain advantage in most other situations.

On the subject of "enhancements to lightsabers granting social benefits..."

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Electrum/Legends

Granted, such detailing was limited to high-ranking Jedi Masters prior to Order 66, and Sidious had both of his lightsabers blinged out this way, because he's him.

What the mechanical perks might be would be up to the player and the GM to hash out.

1 hour ago, TheSapient said:

I think I would limit such a thing to interactions with people who, or places where, Jedi are held in high esteem. I'd assign conflict for displaying a lightsaber to gain advantage in most other situations.

I find it a bit counterintuitive regardless to assign such functionality to items that have very little to do with it in the first place. A Custom Tailored Jacket or Diplomat’s Robes are made specifically to help with certain social skills. It’s their function to do this and they are designed specifically for that purpose, much like armour is designed specifically to make the wearer more resilient in various ways or sealed clothing is designed to allow you to survive longer in vacuum. A lightsaber is not designed for this. I’m sure there are grey areas for some items - vehicles can be made to look menacing or to display excessive wealth for instance - but generally speaking most types of gear affect only whatever function they are built for. The Fancy Paint Job example is not a counter argument either: the benefit has nothing to do with the looks or build of the Signature vehicle, it derives solely from having the Talent and being near whatever vehicle is designated the Signature one - regardless of what it is, what it looks like or how well it functions (or even if it functions at all). If I’m interacting with a Jedi, what difference does it make which lightsaber he’s holding? If I find one impressive, or threatening, or terrifying, I’m pretty sure I feel the same way about every other one as well. Even the Electrum example (“purely cosmetic accessory”, thanks @Donovan Morningfire ) - if I see Mace Windu with his lightsaber, am I going to be in awe because of the lightsaber... or because it’s Mace Windu, renowned Jedi Master and member of the Council? It’s a detail that at most will affect only those who understand what it means, and how it will affect them will be entirely dependent on the individual.

18 hours ago, Daeglan said:

point is that there are things that have social effects. So the game does have a precedence for such things. So yes you are wrong anout such things existimg.

You're missing the point. Those items which have social effects are specifically designed for that purpose as their primary purpose . Any other use is secondary. They're not designed primarily for protection or combat. They're designed with a social/ceremonial function as their primary function. The Armor and weapon crafting rules are designed to produce practical weapons and armor with combat/protection as their sole function.

In terms of mechanics, at most I'd say it provides an advantage to a specific skill check, not unlike the armor option for Keeping the Peace (2A = add 1 advantage to one of Charm, Coercion, Negotiation, or Leadership while the armor is worn), and even then only when the weapon is prominently displayed. And it'd be easy enough to add a drawback that because the lightsaber hilt is so distinctive in appearance that there's a penalty to conceal the object, such as a free advantage on the searcher's Perception check to find and/or identify the item as a lightsaber hilt.

Of course, the custom look doesn't have to be electrum plating/detailing, as I believe the SWTOR MMO has some pretty menacing looking hilt designs favored by the Sith, with various sharp and/or hooked bits that have zero to do with how the lightsaber operates, but simply makes it look more ominous (translating as adding an advantage to Coercion checks when displayed).

5 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

You're missing the point. Those items which have social effects are specifically designed for that purpose as their primary purpose . Any other use is secondary. They're not designed primarily for protection or combat. They're designed with a social/ceremonial function as their primary function. The Armor and weapon crafting rules are designed to produce practical weapons and armor with combat/protection as their sole function.

And i see my point still flew right over your head. As my point was social effects are viable. And when you are making something from scratch there is no reason an effect cant be part of the design.

1 hour ago, Daeglan said:

And i see my point still flew right over your head. As my point was social effects are viable. And when you are making something from scratch there is no reason an effect cant be part of the design.

No one missed your point. Tramp Graphics took what you said and discussed it within context of the game system. Everyone here understands that "social effects are viable". Why should the discussion stop at the declaration of something so trivial and obvious?

Perhaps it would be good to go back to the beginning. You say you want options for spending 2 advantages when crafting a hilt that "fit your character" and are "not boring". Since only you have any insight into what you might think fits those criteria, why don't you share your ideas. Or just talk to your GM.

From my perspective, rolling 2 advantages is not that big of a deal, and any novel modification to a hilt because of those 2 advantages would have to be pretty minor in effect. For example, it could have some text or design engraved on it that would provide an advantage on charm checks when dealing with members of the Church of the Force. But that may be boring to you. Which is why you should be sharing your specific ideas if you want feedback.

Regardless, no one should lose sleep over not getting enough from 2 advantages during a crafting check for a lightsaber hilt. Hilts are made interesting via crystals and other attachments.

2 minutes ago, TheSapient said:

No one missed your point. Tramp Graphics took what you said and discussed it within context of the game system. Everyone here understands that "social effects are viable". Why should the discussion stop at the declaration of something so trivial and obvious?

Perhaps it would be good to go back to the beginning. You say you want options for spending 2 advantages when crafting a hilt that "fit your character" and are "not boring". Since only you have any insight into what you might think fits those criteria, why don't you share your ideas. Or just talk to your GM.

From my perspective, rolling 2 advantages is not that big of a deal, and any novel modification to a hilt because of those 2 advantages would have to be pretty minor in effect. For example, it could have some text or design engraved on it that would provide an advantage on charm checks when dealing with members of the Church of the Force. But that may be boring to you. Which is why you should be sharing your specific ideas if you want feedback.

Regardless, no one should lose sleep over not getting enough from 2 advantages during a crafting check for a lightsaber hilt. Hilts are made interesting via crystals and other attachments.

Actually he did miss the point as he was focusing on those items are specially designed. When my point is social effects are viable. And an item you create is basically specially designed by definition.

And you apparently are missing the point as I was looking for ideas. If i had them i would have said them.

Looking back over this thread, it seems clear there some confusion over the idea of "mechanical effects". While other people are using "mechanical effects" to mean "something that has an effect within the mechanics of the game" (as opposed to descriptive fluff), Daeglan is understanding it as something that is mechanical within the game (as opposed to something social within the game).

To be clear, if an item gives you a boost of some sort on your social checks, that is a "mechanical effect".

1 minute ago, Daeglan said:

Actually he did miss the point as he was focusing on those items are specially designed. When my point is social effects are viable. And an item you create is basically specially designed by definition.

And you apparently are missing the point as I was looking for ideas. If i had them i would have said them.

We'll just have to disagree on whether discussing your point is the same thing as missing it. I certainly disagree with the proposition that if a person asks for ideas, he doesn't have any ideas of his own, and could not generating any through the course of a discussion. And I very much doubt the wisdom of asking people for help and then telling them, one by one, that they have "missed the point".

You say you want options that are not boring to you, and that fit your character. You've been asked for more information, but you've only said what your specs and stats are. That tells us almost nothing at all. What is your character like? What is his background. What does he believe? What does he care about? Is there a planet he considers important? A culture? An activity?

You also say that the things you like cost a "triumph or a bunch of advantage". Why don't you tell us what one of those is, and why it fits your character. From there, we can discuss significantly reduced versions.

6 hours ago, Daeglan said:

Actually he did miss the point as he was focusing on those items are specially designed. When my point is social effects are viable. And an item you create is basically specially designed by definition.

And you apparently are missing the point as I was looking for ideas. If i had them i would have said them.

Viable how? Would you feel the same way if you’d, for instance, built a commlink instead of a lightsaber hilt? What I mean is, I can’t imagine what visual feature a lightsaber hilt would have to bestow a flat bonus on skill checks. It looks extra ornate so everyone assumes the bearer must be dignified? It has a bunch of spiky bits so everyone asumes the bearer must be a really mean bastard? It has an ultrasleek design so the bearer is extra cool?

Social effects on clothing are viable because that’s one of the things clothing is meant to portray: we dress up glamorously for galas, we dress businesslike for professional meetings, we show through our dress choices that we are fans of sports teams or patriots or about to get married or mourning the passing of a loved one. And even then flat bonuses for wearing a certain outfit are a stretch in an RPG like this one. Is Vader’s suit scary? Probably, but that’s really because it’s the suit of Lord Vader and he has a bloody scary reputation. Is Leia’s slave outfit sexy? Yes, but that’s because Leia’s wearing it and not Jabba.

So for me the question is simply, what would a lightsaber hilt look like to let it bestow a social bonus on everyone and anyone bearing it that a ‘regular’ lightsaber wouldn’t?

(semi-related question: what era are you playing in? Are Jedi/lightsabers common?)

@Daeglan at this point, the best advice you can take away from this thread is talk with your GM to see what sort of leeway/wiggleroom they're willing to allow in terms of what you're looking for in terms of options.

They're the ones that have to manage it at the table, so if they're not on board, then any suggestions given here are hogwash. Plus, they know the balance of the group a lot better than a bunch of faceless jokers (myself included) posting on a forum, so the GM will have a better feel for what's "balanced" for their table in terms of homebrew options.

14 hours ago, nameless ronin said:

Because you have a Signature lightsaber? Let me point out that in return for 2 Adv you want to get the benefit of half a Talent, without the downsides?

Wow. I said something exists. I did not say I wanted to make an exact copy. Jeez. How bout instead of assuming I want an exact copy instead take what I am actually saying. Which is that equipment can effect social rules. Which was all I was saying. As in here are possible directions one might go.

Seems like @Donovan Morningfire is the only person who seems to be getting what i am saying.

2 hours ago, Daeglan said:

Wow. I said something exists. I did not say I wanted to make an exact copy. Jeez. How bout instead of assuming I want an exact copy instead take what I am actually saying. Which is that equipment can effect social rules. Which was all I was saying. As in here are possible directions one might go.

Some equipment, sure. Lightsabers? Still waiting for a plausible example. And again, the Talent Fancy Paint Job is not an example of equipment effecting social rules.

Just now, nameless ronin said:

Some equipment, sure. Lightsabers? Still waiting for a plausible example. And again, the Talent Fancy Paint Job is not an example of equipment effecting social rules.

Exactly. @Daeglan , there are only a select few pieces of equipment which give a bonus to social checks by design, and all of them were designed specifically for that purpose, not as an "added feature". That's the key difference between those items and what you're asking for, and that is the point you're missing. A lightsaber is primarily designed with combat in mind. The Formal Council armor, the Staff of Office, and the Ceremonial Blade are all primarily ceremonial items, the function of which is primarily social . That is why they give bonuses to social checks. That is also why granting bonuses to social checks is not an option on any of the weapon or armor crafting tables. The primary purpose for the weapons and armors are practical , not ceremonial .

20 minutes ago, nameless ronin said:

Some equipment, sure. Lightsabers? Still waiting for a plausible example. And again, the Talent Fancy Paint Job is not an example of equipment effecting social rules.

Depends on how you define equipment.

There are weapons in various splats, such as the Staff of Office in Desperate Allies, that provides a bonus to social checks in a specific circumstance.

There are armors in Dangerous Covenants that apply a bonus to Coercion checks just for being worn, but a penalty to most Charm checks, with armor itself potentially being considered a form of equipment. Desperate Allies also has armors that provide a bonus on social checks for certain circumstances, such as dealing with nobility or drawing attention to oneself.

Keeping the Peace's armor-crafting rules have an option to spend 2 advantage from crafting to gain a minor benefit to a specified skill check, with again armor falling into the rather broad category of "equipment."

So what Daeglan is asking for isn't completely without precedent within the official rules. Unfortunately, some folks are just out and out determined to get their knickers in a twist because he's looking for something that isn't explicitly detailed within the existing rules, a fact that he's been pretty clear on almost from the get-go.

@Daeglan , my earlier advice stands; at this point the sensible thing for you to do is to walk away from this thread and just talk it over with your GM, as too many folks seem determined to say "No! You can't do that! It's not da rulez!" as opposed to actually trying to help you out here. I think you've explained yourself pretty well, but these folks don't appear to be interested in listening or actually providing constructive advice.

25 minutes ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

Depends on how you define equipment.

There are weapons in various splats, such as the Staff of Office in Desperate Allies, that provides a bonus to social checks in a specific circumstance.

There are armors in Dangerous Covenants that apply a bonus to Coercion checks just for being worn, but a penalty to most Charm checks, with armor itself potentially being considered a form of equipment. Desperate Allies also has armors that provide a bonus on social checks for certain circumstances, such as dealing with nobility or drawing attention to oneself.

Keeping the Peace's armor-crafting rules have an option to spend 2 advantage from crafting to gain a minor benefit to a specified skill check, with again armor falling into the rather broad category of "equipment."

So what Daeglan is asking for isn't completely without precedent within the official rules. Unfortunately, some folks are just out and out determined to get their knickers in a twist because he's looking for something that isn't explicitly detailed within the existing rules, a fact that he's been pretty clear on almost from the get-go.

@Daeglan , my earlier advice stands; at this point the sensible thing for you to do is to walk away from this thread and just talk it over with your GM, as too many folks seem determined to say "No! You can't do that! It's not da rulez!" as opposed to actually trying to help you out here. I think you've explained yourself pretty well, but these folks don't appear to be interested in listening or actually providing constructive advice.

I noticed. Somannoying. Thanks for actually providing useful advice. I kind of feel now that we have a more complete set of crafting rules we kind of need a version 2 of them

10 minutes ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

Depends on how you define equipment.

There are weapons in various splats, such as the Staff of Office in Desperate Allies, that provides a bonus to social checks in a specific circumstance.

There are armors in Dangerous Covenants that apply a bonus to Coercion checks just for being worn, but a penalty to most Charm checks, with armor itself potentially being considered a form of equipment. Desperate Allies also has armors that provide a bonus on social checks for certain circumstances, such as dealing with nobility or drawing attention to oneself.

Keeping the Peace's armor-crafting rules have an option to spend 2 advantage from crafting to gain a minor benefit to a specified skill check, with again armor falling into the rather broad category of "equipment."

So what Daeglan is asking for isn't completely without precedent within the official rules. Unfortunately, some folks are just out and out determined to get their knickers in a twist because he's looking for something that isn't explicitly detailed within the existing rules, a fact that he's been pretty clear on almost from the get-go.

@Daeglan , my earlier advice stands; at this point the sensible thing for you to do is to walk away from this thread and just talk it over with your GM, as too many folks seem determined to say "No! You can't do that! It's not da rulez!" as opposed to actually trying to help you out here. I think you've explained yourself pretty well, but these folks don't appear to be interested in listening or actually providing constructive advice.

The bonuses given by those weapons are a function of the items themselves, not a quality tacked onto something. They have a separate entry on the tables for good reason. A Staff of Office gives its bonus because it’s a symbol of office, not because it’s a staff with some elaborate decorations on it. It’s like a crown: a crown identifies the wearer as a king not because of how it’s made or what it looks like, but because it’s a crown . If I craft me a wooden staff and get a bunch of Adv on the check, I won’t magically get a Staff of Office - I’m just getting a really nice wooden staff.

I suggested @Daeglan take this up with his GM halfway down the previous page of this topic. If his GM is amenable, great! Their table, their fun, their way. My issue with this isn’t so much that this isn’t in the rules, but rather that I don’t see a plausible way of doing it (which seems like it might explain why it isn’t in the rules, but hey). I’ve gone into why I can see this working for clothing, which I consider armour to be a subset of, in previous posts and I’ve been repeating myself too often already, so I see little point in rehashing it yet again.

Anyway, I think this has been solved now. Daeglan wants to spend 2 advantage to have his lightsaber hilt do something with social checks that is not boring and fits his character (stats 232232). Now he just has to take this to his GM and see if it will be allowed.

Heaven forbid i ask for ideas here. Apparently you get crucified for suggesting existing rules as a template for new ideas.

I got more resistance than actuL help or ideas.

5 hours ago, Daeglan said:

Heaven forbid i ask for ideas here. Apparently you get crucified for suggesting existing rules as a template for new ideas.

I got more resistance than actuL help or ideas.

If this counts as crucifiction our Lord and Saviour JC got a really raw deal.

My take on this is that what you’re suggesting is not in the rules, and that that is because it wouldn’t make a lot of sense. I also think it’s better for the game to make proper distinctions between being good at something (and thus having a lot of options) and being poor at something (and thus having few options). You clearly disagree, as is your right.

9 hours ago, Daeglan said:

Heaven forbid i ask for ideas here. Apparently you get crucified for suggesting existing rules as a template for new ideas.

I got more resistance than actuL help or ideas.

Everyone is trying to help you. The problem is the way you react to anyone who says anything you don't like. You either ignore it entirely, or tell them they are "missing the point". We'd love to help you find some ideas that fit your character, but we can't if you won't tell us anything useful about your character. You say there are options for a hilt you like that cost more than 2 advantages, but won't share what those things are.

I think we all agree there are items in this game that have an affect on the social rules of the game. Asking you how that would work with a lightsaber is not giving you resistance. It is an attempt to help you. You point out that Windu had a special looking lightsaber and suggest that it helped him in social situations. Asking you when that happened is not giving you resistance. I've suggested you could have symbols or something engraved that would give you some sort of advantage with a specific group, like the Church of the Force. You didn't respond.

We'd all like to help. But you have to try too.

There are some criteria, though. Anything you get for 2 advantage has to be balanced against what is already available. It has to be significantly weaker than what you can get for 3. It has to be in line with what you can get for 2. It has to make sense within the universe. A decoration on your hilt won't make you a better pilot for example, or make you generally more charming. That just wouldn't make sense.

16 hours ago, Daeglan said:

Heaven forbid i ask for ideas here. Apparently you get crucified for suggesting existing rules as a template for new ideas.

I got more resistance than actuL help or ideas.

Hey, as long as you accept that it's your own fault for not min-making to "easily" get the 3 Triumphs and 22 Advantages on the crafting check that's needed to break the galaxy! ?

5 hours ago, HappyDaze said:

Hey, as long as you accept that it's your own fault for not min-making to "easily" get the 3 Triumphs and 22 Advantages on the crafting check that's needed to break the galaxy! ?

Wow. I didnt ask for that. I asked for ideas appropriate for 1 or 2 adv.

On 5/17/2018 at 6:38 PM, Tramp Graphics said:

Exactly. @Daeglan , there are only a select few pieces of equipment which give a bonus to social checks by design, and all of them were designed specifically for that purpose, not as an "added feature". That's the key difference between those items and what you're asking for, and that is the point you're missing. A lightsaber is primarily designed with combat in mind. The Formal Council armor, the Staff of Office, and the Ceremonial Blade are all primarily ceremonial items, the function of which is primarily social . That is why they give bonuses to social checks. That is also why granting bonuses to social checks is not an option on any of the weapon or armor crafting tables. The primary purpose for the weapons and armors are practical , not ceremonial .

Recheck the armor crafting rules @Tramp Graphics , in particular look at special embellishment which costs 2 advantage.

@Daeglan I would be willing to give a player a limited port of special embellishment (omitting resilience and stealth), the gist of it is you can spend 2 crafting advantage to provide 1 advantage to all of 1 type of skill check and the skill in question can be chosen from charm, coercion, negotiation, leadership. And I would only let you get that benefit when it is prominently displayed without it being held (which would cover up a good part of the fancy paintjob-ish features). It might not be what you want but it's as close to what I think you're asking for that I might allow at my table as GM.