Fenn is going to be an absolute beast in 2.0. His ability + concord is enough to make me almost want to fly exclusively scum. Setup that lock, and next turn focus + boost. No token stacking in 2.0 means Fenn is gonna put on the hurt. No PTL for boost barrel roll means Fenn can lineup his shots easier, and a guarantee he is highest PS. Its gonna be scary seeing Fenn across the table in 2.0.

8 minutes ago, Commander Kaine said:

The only situation where range 2 matters, is when Fel has focus evade, while Fenn has only focus. (And let's say target lock)

Even in this case, Fel will take 1 less damage, while Fenn has +1 health

On the other hand, I've had Soontir one shotted by Fenn several times.

Yeah, soontir will survive a bit longer, but Fenn will take out more points from the enemy team, and faster.

If one of my ships is getting blown out of the sky before it gets to attack, Fenn already paid for himself usually.

Also, mindlink allows for some crazy ps 9 shenanigans.

And a talon roll can easily throw a wrench in Soontir's plans. When you are throwing 5 dice and a hit, you don't always need mods to destroy 3 hull.

That one less damage can add up, where as that one more HP only helps once.

Your point about Fenn killing faster is more about the pilot ability, not the chassis. Fenn is a sentient missile who can pay for himself in the destruction of enemy ships. But you don't really see the other Fang pilots able to do that with his kind of efficiency, thus the common theme of the chassis isn't where the power lies. This is also indicative of the differing play styles of the Fang and Interceptor. The Fang must kill to live while the Interceptor can simply survive on its tokens ands wits.

Your Mindlink point is out of date and had its own costs. It is also an advantage that doesn't have to do with the chassis itself, but the faction it is in. If you object to Palp being considered an asset for the Interceptor, then so should Mindlink.

Your final line is changing variables at that point, making Fenn Rau is a single action ship with Fearlessness. Fel has duel repositioning as needed, access to multiple focus tokens, the evade action, and even a TL if so desired. That Fenn Rau you described would need to be lucky to both catch a traditional Fel and roll enough hits to get through Fel's tokens. Not impossible, but the success comes from fortune mix matched with player daring/expertise, not some form of inherent superiority of the Fang.

11 hours ago, Cloaker said:

The real question within your posed will be--will generics, upon debut of 2.0 or in the future be so low costed as to be under current 1.0 values? That might well be the most interesting thing to come of all of it.

The whole reason the heavy swarm (5 Cartel Marauders, Striker Squads, etc) were a thing was that you need more than just a one-ship advantage to really counterbalance the power of upgrade-laden aces with unmodified generics.

I'd love heavy swarms to be 6 ships, now, but I don't necessarily expect it. It's more a case of the generics seemingly being more capable (an equivalent of ex-concord dawn being baked in and a lot of ships generically having action-into-reposition or vice-versa) and aces being less so (a lot of ace abilities being bore-sight locked, shield regen being use-limited and autothrusters being a thing of the past).

With Concordia Face-off not being restricted to your own arc, Fenn Rau is going to be a nightmare to engage in a close-quarter duel, because you don't even get any benefit for surrounding him.

1 hour ago, SabineKey said:

Fenn is a sentient missile who can pay for himself in the destruction of enemy ships.

HAHAHAHAHA... OK this is amazing.

If torpedos are reasonably costed, the other Fang with the ability to reduce opponents defense dice pool will also be strong.

I believe new Fang Fighter title works only in primary arc, so with only 4 hull, no shields, no autothrusters Fangs will suffer horribly against turrets. And turrets get addional attack dice in r1.

It will be excellent close combat fighter against arc ships but I expect huge problems against turrets.

3 hours ago, Oldpara said:

I believe new Fang Fighter title works only in primary arc, so with only 4 hull, no shields, no autothrusters Fangs will suffer horribly against turrets. And turrets get addional attack dice in r1.

It will be excellent close combat fighter against arc ships but I expect huge problems against turrets.

Indeed. But that does still leave a manoeuvre-based solution - point yourself at their primary arc.

Plus, they're going to have to deal with the rotate action needed to line up said turret - just because you've got a turret doesn't mean it's currently pointed the right way, especially at range 1 where a single boost or barrel roll can easily move from one arc to the next; if you've got a zealous recruit that's happy to fly into the front of you, then blocking and denying them the ability to rotate is quite feasible.

19 hours ago, Cloaker said:

Valid point. But consider the dial and the initiative. how often will you want to stress a Initiative 1 Fang that will not have blue 1 maneuvers, that will be out of the engagement on the following turn most likely, not able to block or shoot unless the opposing squad happens to be a swarm with other targets, which murders it still usually through multiple attacks? I fly Fangs often, and I can vouch that they the low PS with a pseudo Focus PTL that takes place AFTER a reposition will not be that much of a value, especially against many other ships that have the same options.

I fly them a lot too. The Zealous Recruit is one of my favourite ships in the game. The ability for it to now focus and then boost or barrel roll is a significant bonus combined with the title. If anything I’m expecting it’s relative points value to increase.

Technically you are right that Fenn and the other aces are slightly worse off as they have less flexibility over their actions but that is entirely in line with the changes we’ve seen elsewhere.

Fenn still looks absurdly strong and up there with the likes of Vader.

The other thing to keep in mind about turrets, is that if you look at ion turrets, you need 1 damage to get through, then another hit to put the ion token on. So debilitating effects like ion tokens may not be as easy to put down as before. Also, if memory serves, after being ioned, you are forced to perform a green manoeuver and can perform focus actions, so while turrets can be troublesome, they will definitly have their limitations as well.

On 5/13/2018 at 5:26 PM, Cloaker said:

Arc Dodging far less effective now also with turrets getting range 1 bonuses.

I don’t understand this part. Now that all turrets are mobile arcs surely arc dodging is more effective?

35 minutes ago, mazz0 said:

I don’t understand this part. Now that all turrets are mobile arcs surely arc dodging is more effective?

The original poster was probably thinking in terms of v1.0 upgrade: autothrusters, tlt donut hole, getting closer is better, etc.

It's sometimes easy to forget that in V2.0, when all turrets have arcs, it will be possible to dodge the shot entirely or that an opponent might have to waste an action just to turn the turret in the right direction.

1 hour ago, dotswarlock said:

The original poster was probably thinking in terms of v1.0 upgrade: autothrusters, tlt donut hole, getting closer is better, etc.

It's sometimes easy to forget that in V2.0, when all turrets have arcs, it will be possible to dodge the shot entirely or that an opponent might have to waste an action just to turn the turret in the right direction.

In which case it’s probably unmodified. I’m really looking forward to v2!

more like: Will Fenn Rau (Scum) be weaker in 2.0?

Legitimately, except on initial release + a month or so, never saw that thing EXCEPT for Fenn because he was potentially so bloody broken it was ridiculous. Only "balanced" because hes a glass cannon, but as a result the other pilots didnt exist.

I expected Teroch to be annoying and common when that ship got revealed, but i think i saw him....twice?

2 hours ago, mazz0 said:

I don’t understand this part. Now that all turrets are mobile arcs surely arc dodging is more effective?

Consider this; 3 Fangs Not Named Rau vs 4 Y-Wings, or 3 K-Wings even. Fangs have to close in. Getting caught in the arc of primary or a turret, at range 1 regardless of mobile arc or not, lends another dice vs a 3 agility now. Turreted Rebels can just run the side of the board ala Asajj and Fangs will have to come to them along the edges, into said range 1 bonus focus modified, with maybe a risky tallon roll (no k-turn, they're off the board if not ioned to extinction after that anyway) after that. With only three dice and Concordia Face-Off changing an existing result, anyone but Fenn Rau that runs into 3 or more turret weapons will basically be toast. It just seems that the very thing that kept anyone not named Rau alive for more than a turn or two is gone. The spirit of the face off is now that you aren't, you know, actually facing your opponent anymore and get a 3 die mod vs. facing them, the way it was designed and rolled out initially, gaining an extra defensive advantage for performing the strategy of the tactic.

And this is just running with Fangs who actually are getting some sort of defensive mod. Imagine the poor fool who runs 1-2 agility small base ships. The issue it seems is with turrets getting range one bonuses, it's going to be tough. There are counters--ordnance lists, getting multi use is certainly helpful. It'll be range 3 (since all special weapon turrets are 1-2)or bust though.

Look, I'm probably missing something here, there's alot of unspoiled cards too. I guess it just seems that turret bonuses with high HP ships are still going to be a big problem. And the benefits of the Fang are slightly more off than it was in 2.0, to a degree that hurts all of them not named Rau. We have a Corran Horn effect it seems like. Hopefully Fenn will be costed north of 70.

35 minutes ago, mazz0 said:

In which case it’s probably unmodified. I’m really looking forward to v2!

We can already see that Dengar's turret rotation is a red linked action that's tied to his focus or target locks. At PS6, he'll have nearly perfect intel against any Fang pilot except for maybe Fenn. Same carries through for Han, and I can't recall what the timing is on the free turret rotation from Luke's crew card.

However, those turrets are going to be much more vulnerable to swarms and jousters now, and those jousters are generally weak to arc-dodgers. We'll have to see how things shake out.

9 minutes ago, PhantomFO said:

We can already see that Dengar's turret rotation is a red linked action that's tied to his focus or target locks. At PS6, he'll have nearly perfect intel against any Fang pilot except for maybe Fenn. Same carries through for Han, and I can't recall what the timing is on the free turret rotation from Luke's crew card.

However, those turrets are going to be much more vulnerable to swarms and jousters now, and those jousters are generally weak to arc-dodgers. We'll have to see how things shake out.

Yes, but he only has those linked rotations, he doesn’t have a white one on its own, so he’s always going to be stressed if he rotates his arc, and he won’t be able to do it after a red manoeuvre. It’s all good!?

2 hours ago, Cloaker said:

Consider this; 3 Fangs Not Named Rau vs 4 Y-Wings, or 3 K-Wings even. Fangs have to close in. Getting caught in the arc of primary or a turret, at range 1 regardless of mobile arc or not, lends another dice vs a 3 agility now. Turreted Rebels can just run the side of the board ala Asajj and Fangs will have to come to them along the edges, into said range 1 bonus focus modified, with maybe a risky tallon roll (no k-turn, they're off the board if not ioned to extinction after that anyway) after that. With only three dice and Concordia Face-Off changing an existing result, anyone but Fenn Rau that runs into 3 or more turret weapons will basically be toast. It just seems that the very thing that kept anyone not named Rau alive for more than a turn or two is gone. The spirit of the face off is now that you aren't, you know, actually facing your opponent anymore and get a 3 die mod vs. facing them, the way it was designed and rolled out initially, gaining an extra defensive advantage for performing the strategy of the tactic.

And this is just running with Fangs who actually are getting some sort of defensive mod. Imagine the poor fool who runs 1-2 agility small base ships. The issue it seems is with turrets getting range one bonuses, it's going to be tough. There are counters--ordnance lists, getting multi use is certainly helpful. It'll be range 3 (since all special weapon turrets are 1-2)or bust though.

Look, I'm probably missing something here, there's alot of unspoiled cards too. I guess it just seems that turret bonuses with high HP ships are still going to be a big problem. And the benefits of the Fang are slightly more off than it was in 2.0, to a degree that hurts all of them not named Rau. We have a Corran Horn effect it seems like. Hopefully Fenn will be costed north of 70.

Turrets will be probably changed to accommodate the changes, and adjusted in price.

Plus you know. Double mods are gone, 3 agi ain't so bad. Maybe if you get in range 1 of 3 turrets, all facing you, you will die... But then again maybe you should.

Double mods aren't gone. Just, a lot less common now that you can't just toss on a 3pt EPT.

4 hours ago, Cloaker said:

Consider this; 3 Fangs Not Named Rau vs 4 Y-Wings, or 3 K-Wings even. Fangs have to close in. Getting caught in the arc of primary or a turret, at range 1 regardless of mobile arc or not, lends another dice vs a 3 agility now. Turreted Rebels can just run the side of the board ala Asajj and Fangs will have to come to them along the edges, into said range 1 bonus focus modified, with maybe a risky tallon roll (no k-turn, they're off the board if not ioned to extinction after that anyway) after that. With only three dice and Concordia Face-Off changing an existing result, anyone but Fenn Rau that runs into 3 or more turret weapons will basically be toast. It just seems that the very thing that kept anyone not named Rau alive for more than a turn or two is gone. The spirit of the face off is now that you aren't, you know, actually facing your opponent anymore and get a 3 die mod vs. facing them, the way it was designed and rolled out initially, gaining an extra defensive advantage for performing the strategy of the tactic.

And this is just running with Fangs who actually are getting some sort of defensive mod. Imagine the poor fool who runs 1-2 agility small base ships. The issue it seems is with turrets getting range one bonuses, it's going to be tough. There are counters--ordnance lists, getting multi use is certainly helpful. It'll be range 3 (since all special weapon turrets are 1-2)or bust though.

Look, I'm probably missing something here, there's alot of unspoiled cards too. I guess it just seems that turret bonuses with high HP ships are still going to be a big problem. And the benefits of the Fang are slightly more off than it was in 2.0, to a degree that hurts all of them not named Rau. We have a Corran Horn effect it seems like. Hopefully Fenn will be costed north of 70.

Well yeah, getting caught at range one of a turret that has you in arc is worse now, but getting caught in arc isn’t arc dodging.

And really, if all you're flying is fangs then shame on you.... I'm looking forward to finally being able to have decent support for Boba. I was never really able to decide whether I wanted PTL or the title on his fang wingmates, but now I may not have to.

7 hours ago, PhantomFO said:

We can already see that Dengar's turret rotation is a red linked action that's tied to his focus or target locks. At PS6, he'll have nearly perfect intel against any Fang pilot except for maybe Fenn. Same carries through for Han, and I can't recall what the timing is on the free turret rotation from Luke's crew card.

Luke is start of combat IIRC, making the Falcon pretty much a 360 degrees turret.

8 hours ago, LordBlades said:

Luke is start of combat IIRC, making the Falcon pretty much a 360 degrees turret.

But it costs a slot and a lot of points presumably.

I think we can be fairly certain that Fenn Rau and a couple other aces will be worse off than v1, but the rest of the ships will be better. That's the whole point if v2, though. Bring down the stuff that's too good a bit and bring up the stuff that's too low.

Personally, I am looking forward to flying well with generics and getting shots at aces.

On 5/14/2018 at 1:43 AM, RunnerAZ said:

If torpedos are reasonably costed, the other Fang with the ability to reduce opponents defense dice pool will also be strong.

On 5/14/2018 at 1:53 PM, Cloaker said:

Look, I'm probably missing something here, there's alot of unspoiled cards too. I guess it just seems that turret bonuses with high HP ships are still going to be a big problem. And the benefits of the Fang are slightly more off than it was in 2.0, to a degree that hurts all of them not named Rau. We have a Corran Horn effect it seems like. Hopefully Fenn will be costed north of 70.

I understand that languages evolve, but is there a need to invent a new word to say what you mean? "Priced" already exists, means exactly what you want to say, and is less awkward.

@Yakostovian, I don’t know when it started but ‘costed’ had been the common parlance for years in X-wing. Priced is obviously the ‘correct’ term but whatcha gonna do.