2 minutes ago, Houston8665 said:

You are also assuming BTL even exists in the same form in 2.0. I have not seen anything about it.

The Y-wing can double tap out of the front arc, they mentioned it the team covenant game. Except tlt is gong so you’ll only get two atks.

2 minutes ago, Cloaker said:

Take a look at the new Y-Wing dial and cross reference with your statement before you prematurely label my opinion.

What does the dial have to do with a red barrel roll, you stated in 2.0 the y-wing can do barrel rolls like the flight assist did against you, I pointed out they were red and would get no mods. Wtf does the dial have to do with that.

2 minutes ago, FlyingAnchors said:

The Y-wing can double tap out of the front arc, they mentioned it the team covenant game. Except tlt is gong so you’ll only get two atks.

They mentioned it but it was not in that game so we have no idea what the downside may be. As far as I can tell most things that allow multiple attacks got reworked in some way

You are missing not only the point, but the pencil writing with it.

What does new Y-Wing dial offer vs. the former? And how does that negate your aforementioned rebuttal about the red barrel roll? Start there, and you'll see how the comparison will be even more advantageous for BTL Ys vs. The FAA versions.

34 minutes ago, Cloaker said:

Obviously that's a ridiculous assumption. And it isn't wind pissing, there is some validity here due to a) the composition of the squads as is known in 2.0 and b) the immutable aspects of the game as we know it to be. They played out in a way that will be similar I think when we run it through in September.

There is 0 validity unless you are playing against 2.0 squads

Everything in 2.0 is less dumb than in 1.0, not even FAA seems to exist anymore and TLTs are confirmed gone

Without proper context, analysis is skewed to the point of being meaningless

Do not attempt to derive the quality of the 2.0 fang in an improper setting. It's like expecting a fish to survive on land

16 minutes ago, Icelom said:

That's is all fine, you just preformed a hugely flawed test, then stated your derived result as fact. Even just having "I think....." In your title would garner less salt.

Haha. Relax, guy.

11 minutes ago, Cloaker said:

You are missing not only the point, but the pencil writing with it.

What does new Y-Wing dial offer vs. the former? And how does that negate your aforementioned rebuttal about the red barrel roll? Start there, and you'll see how the comparison will be even more advantageous for BTL Ys vs. The FAA versions.

I think you are trying to mention the blue one banks....

That still leaves the barrel roll red so no action that turn no mods. Unlike flight assist.

It's always good to make your argument with a vague statement telling the person to figure out what ever the point you are trying to make on their own. First it is confusing, and second it sure does not make me want to discuss anything rationally.

Just now, ficklegreendice said:

There is 0 validity unless you are playing against 2.0 squads

Everything in 2.0 is less dumb than in 1.0, not even FAA seems to exist anymore and TLTs are confirmed gone

Without proper context, analysis is skewed to the point of being meaningless

Do not attempt to derive the quality of the 2.0 fang in an improper setting. It's like expecting a fish to survive on land

You're certainly entitled to that viewpoint and making your assumptions about context and how dumb things are or were. But it's also foolish to assume you've figured out that there isn't the potential to hypothetically recreate situations that will mirror closely enough what is to come with enough understanding of its impact. My ability to discern is every bit as adept as yours to dismiss.

I am sure Fen Rau will be good, but then again I am predicting an Initiative 6 or Bust meta.

5 minutes ago, Icelom said:

I think you are trying to mention the blue one banks....

That still leaves the barrel roll red so no action that turn no mods. Unlike flight assist.

It's always good to make your argument with a vague statement telling the person to figure out what ever the point you are trying to make on their own. First it is confusing, and second it sure does not make me want to discuss anything rationally.

Since your insinuation of blame in my execution of limited arc dodging a ship that will also be able to, surprise, limited arc dodge and reposition, the confusion is understandable on both sides. Fair enough we agree to disagree on my admittedly limited assessment but that does not mean it doesn't have the potential to be true.

9 minutes ago, Cloaker said:

You're certainly entitled to that viewpoint and making your assumptions about context and how dumb things are or were. But it's also foolish to assume you've figured out that there isn't the potential to hypothetically recreate situations that will mirror closely enough what is to come with enough understanding of its impact. My ability to discern is every bit as adept as yours to dismiss.

Dismissing a conclusion on the basis of faulty experimentation or incomplete information is far more valid than attempting to derive a faulty conclusion from said things

This is nothing to do with ability, it's just a simple fact that the test was not well carried out and resulted in a case of "jumping the gun"

39 minutes ago, Cloaker said:

Only a couple, obviously, 2.0 has only been announced for awhile. But BTL Y's are going to be a challenge I think with restrained Evade option / agility ships...

Perhaps, but isn't that the point of a overhaul the size of a second edition?

I understand your concern, but with fudged details and not knowing point costs, I'm not sure a definitive "Fang Fighter will be worse" is called for.

2 minutes ago, Marinealver said:

I am sure Fen Rau will be good, but then again I am predicting an Int 6 or Bust meta.

I was talking about that with a friend. I think you're right. The design won't ever be so conservative that 2 init 6 aces + friend won't be the new hotness. From what it sounds like though, the Force users will reign. Luke and Ezra and buddy season to taste.

I'm still beyond thrilled with everything 2.0. They got it all right, it's just that some ships are going to still struggle. The hope that every pilot will be proportionate valuable might not be realized.

1 minute ago, ficklegreendice said:

Dismissing a conclusion on the basis of faulty experimentation or incomplete information is far more valid than attempting to derive a faulty conclusion from said things

This is nothing to do with ability, it's just a simple fact that the test was not well carried out and resulted in a case of "jumping the gun"

Again, a opinion of assessment as limited to that which it purports to have logical domain over. But you've stated it well, and I respect your contributions on the board enough to not engage in needless point / counter point with you. We'll see what happens, and if I'm proven right you have to send me a signed green dice.

4 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

Perhaps, but isn't that the point of a overhaul the size of a second edition?

I understand your concern, but with fudged details and not knowing point costs, I'm not sure a definitive "Fang Fighter will be worse" is called for.

Agreed. I've had three beers and probably could better craft my post titles better.

Here's solid testing material that might actually help you prove or disprove your thesis:

This is why costs can be adjusted. If init 6 really is everywhere, boom, bump all those pilots up 6 points in cost.

Still everywhere a few months later? Bump their price up again.

Fang generics stink like you are assuming based on incredibly little information? Cut their costs a few months in.

I appreciate your excitement to the point of analyzing things you can’t reasonably expect to analyze correctly, but that’s the beauty of 2.0. Things will be bad, it’s true. But not forever. And we won’t have to wait for a fix pack 2 years later to make that happen.

Even if the fang fighter ship is "worse" in 2.0. The developers could simply change the costs of ships to better match the overall performance. For example, how many fang fighters did you have against the BTL y wings? 4 vs 4? What if the costs of initiative 1 fang fighters was lowered to 40 points or taken to the etreme of 25 points each. How would 4 BTL y wings hold up against 5 or even 8 fang fighters.? At that point cost, I would say the fang fighters got a huge buff.

Until we get a hold of the new x wing app with point costs, any ship comparison will be meaningless.

5 minutes ago, Wedgeismyhero said:

Here's solid testing material that might actually help you prove or disprove your thesis:

This is so cool! Thank you for an inventive way to offer insight to my post.

6 minutes ago, Kdubb said:

This is why costs can be adjusted. If init 6 really is everywhere, boom, bump all those pilots up 6 points in cost.

Still everywhere a few months later? Bump their price up again.

Fang generics stink like you are assuming based on incredibly little information? Cut their costs a few months in.

I appreciate your excitement to the point of analyzing things you can’t reasonably expect to analyze correctly, but that’s the beauty of 2.0. Things will be bad, it’s true. But not forever. And we won’t have to wait for a fix pack 2 years later to make that happen.

This is why they got their hooks into me again so easily for 2.0. A living rulebook gives me confidence to give them my money all over again now.

48 minutes ago, FlyingAnchors said:

The Y-wing can double tap out of the front arc, they mentioned it the team covenant game. Except tlt is gong so you’ll only get two atks.

44 minutes ago, Houston8665 said:

They mentioned it but it was not in that game so we have no idea what the downside may be. As far as I can tell most things that allow multiple attacks got reworked in some way

I’m guessing the double tap they mentioned will be in the form of the veteran turret gunner card, that lets you do a turret attack after a primary. So it might be two at one target, or might be two different targets depending on arc.

6 minutes ago, Isophane said:

Even if the fang fighter ship is "worse" in 2.0. The developers could simply change the costs of ships to better match the overall performance. For example, how many fang fighters did you have against the BTL y wings? 4 vs 4? What if the costs of initiative 1 fang fighters was lowered to 40 points or taken to the etreme of 25 points each. How would 4 BTL y wings hold up against 5 or even 8 fang fighters.? At that point cost, I would say the fang fighters got a huge buff.

Until we get a hold of the new x wing app with point costs, any ship comparison will be meaningless.

The ps1 fang right now is already cheap enough to run 5 (though not titled). Just depends how the points work out with the title being built in

And I agree that a maybe red barrel roll is vastly inferior to FAA. FAA also lets you boost, and doesn’t take your action, so you can still focus. In 2.0, Assuming FAA doesn’t come over in its current form, if you barrel roll you end up stressed, so you’re more limited the next round, and you don’t get to focus or TL so you have unmodified dice, which are significantly less scary

7 minutes ago, Isophane said:

Even if the fang fighter ship is "worse" in 2.0. The developers could simply change the costs of ships to better match the overall performance. For example, how many fang fighters did you have against the BTL y wings? 4 vs 4? What if the costs of initiative 1 fang fighters was lowered to 40 points or taken to the etreme of 25 points each. How would 4 BTL y wings hold up against 5 or even 8 fang fighters.? At that point cost, I would say the fang fighters got a huge buff.

Until we get a hold of the new x wing app with point costs, any ship comparison will be meaningless.

Well, the 3 primary limits the floor. You can run 5 PS1s at 100 now, figure that is the most you can do at 200. Maybe. Can 5 Fangs annihilate 4 Y-wing BTLs? Let's say they are all Init 1. BTLs with 8 attacks vs 5? Dice, I suppose.

The real question within your posed will be--will generics, upon debut of 2.0 or in the future be so low costed as to be under current 1.0 values? That might well be the most interesting thing to come of all of it.

2 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

And I agree that a maybe red barrel roll is vastly inferior to FAA. FAA also lets you boost, and doesn’t take your action, so you can still focus. In 2.0, Assuming FAA doesn’t come over in its current form, if you barrel roll you end up stressed, so you’re more limited the next round, and you don’t get to focus or TL so you have unmodified dice, which are significantly less scary

Well, to a point. FAA has severe limitations which 2.0 Y's do not. And they will clear stress far more easily.

43 minutes ago, Cloaker said:

Well, to a point. FAA has severe limitations which 2.0 Y's do not. And they will clear stress far more easily.

Clearing stress does nothing for the lack of mods after doing a barrel roll. And clearing stress more easily is great, but is still nothing compared to a current FAA yeing having its full dial open every round, AND can barrel roll every round (within Iran limitations). In 2e if you want to br every round you lose a ton of maneuverability and get no mods. That’s a huge difference.