23 minutes ago, Schu81 said:

and  t  hey are probably the main reason why there is such a gre  at f  anbase of Star Wars a  ll over the  w  o  r  l   d.    

The only reason.

19 minutes ago, Schu81 said:

Because you were assuming I must be new to Star Wars, because of a qute you didn't like.

You're right, that's not exactly "hating" somebody. I was exaggerating here.

But I think you have very well understood me, haven't you? So why? Where am I being wrong here?

Lucas was all about selling toys back in 1977, as was until he sold the company to Disney.

Lucas had a political axe to grind in the OT, and really had a fairly overt political agenda with the prequels. To suggest the idea that Disney is now somehow new to creating characters for merchandise and or merchandising the movies, or that they are now inserting political points of view into SW where there wasn’t any before is a bit ignorant of reality.

Just now, Schu81 said:

I agree with you. It's perfectly correct for every individual to have his/her opinion about certain things.

But what is a personal opionion based on? Did you actually enjoy the "your momma jokes" in TLJ? Didn't you actually go to the cinema, wanting to learn more about Reys parents? Didn't you wonder about the character of Snoke before TLJ came out?

I could come up with a lot of plot holes as facts, though, clearly showing that they represent "poor writing".

But the way some people are "discussing" here seems more like they would rather not want to hear anything about that.

The “your mamma joke”: worth a chuckle. It was a quick line that didn’t make or break the movie. Even it’s removal doesn’t move the needle of enjoyment one way or thee other.

learning about Rey’s parents: I did learn about Rey’s parents. They were important because of Rey’s need for them, not who they actually were. I was satisfied with the explanation.

Snoke: Sure. And i’ll get answers later. I actually quite like the idea that his arrogance was his down fall, even with Palp’s example. It also gives Kylo more room to grow.

Now, to be clear, I am not defending TLJ as a perfect movie. It’s got its problems and plot holes. But so does every other Star Wars movie.

And no, i’m not interested in your dissection of the movie as i’ve been through that plenty of times with other people and it just leads to wasted effort on both sides. I’m not trying to change your mind on TLJ. You watched the movie, you formed an opinion. That’s all you and more power to you. But you have been using other arguments (like the merchandising) and comments (how can a TLJ fan call themselves SW fan?) that are frankly bull.

2 minutes ago, Hobojebus said:

But and here s the important thing the vast majority of people dislike the far left pushing progressive values on them.

Every time they do this it fails.

New atheism died a death, videogames like mass effect, marvel comics etc.

It's too extreme and only the fringe thinks it's acceptable, that's why trump was elected, it's why brexit happened.

The left went further left and we refused to follow.

So when you inject it into something the fans will reject it and it dies, every single time.

Amazing. Everything you just said, was wrong.

2 hours ago, Forresto said:

Did you watch the movie?

They were going to jump again.

The first jump was the panicked escape from Daqar and they were going to jump again.

Then the First Order showed up.

So they jumped to a random spot almost a day away from an old base? Jumping actually close to the base as a jump point would make some sense, or jumping to deep space like it originally sounded like they’re did is fine. But where they ended up doesn’t really make sense. Most jumps in Star Wars tend to take place along known and charged routes. I doubt 18 hours away from a planet is a typical jump point

21 minutes ago, Hobojebus said:

But and here s the important thing the vast majority of people dislike the far left pushing progressive values on them.

Every time they do this it fails.

New atheism died a death, videogames like mass effect, marvel comics etc.

It's too extreme and only the fringe thinks it's acceptable, that's why trump was elected, it's why brexit happened.

The left went further left and we refused to follow.

So when you inject it into something the fans will reject it and it dies, every single time.

I...don’t even know what you’re talking about here.

I actually liked the opening, with Poe's stalling for time culminating in a 'yo mama' joke. The problem is that this is an early moment that should be setting the tone of the movie, and it is followed up by a movie that spends most of its run time trying to take itself Very Effing Seriously, while also constantly swinging to the opposite extreme of Silly Fun Space Adventure! Now with Space Horses(tm!) (wink!), and it makes the movie's tone incredibly inconsistent.

It winds up feeling like two completely different movies were smashed together in post-production, and one of them wasn't even a Star Wars movie to begin with. The Star Wars parts were altogether pretty good, despite the entire Canto Bight sequence feeling like it was ripped straight out of the worst parts of the prequels. But then there was the loooong grind of attrition and tragedy that was the entire space chase and mutiny and subsequent ground battle, all of which felt a lot more like an extended episode of Battlestar Galactica than anything from Star Wars. And there were other odd random bits and pieces that didn't fit as well, like the laundry room gag that might as well have come straight out of a Mel Brooks movie. Would have been hilarious in Space Balls! Felt totally out of place in Star Wars, like the movie was satirizing itself.

Also, as I get older, I find that I have much less patience with characters making Obviously Bad Decisions for the sake of Forced Plot Conflict ("let's refuse to tell any of our allies about our plan to escape certain doom!" "let's mutiny because they won't tell us their plan to escape certain doom!") and, well... it's easy to see why I found most of Poe and Holdo's whole story arc tiresome.

I didn't hate TLJ. There was a lot of really good stuff in that movie, particularly some truly incredible visuals (hyperspeed ram! throne room fight! twin sunset!). But I do think that on the whole it was the weakest of the Disney movies so far.

Ok let me dissect this:

1) The fact (objective): TLJ was quite unconventional and handled the plot and some artistic cjoices quite differently from the other star wars stories.

2) the pure opinions: you can like that or dislike that. You can find it well executed or not.

Personally, I hated TLJ with a passion. But there is no accounting for taste. I envy those who could like it.

2 hours ago, Forresto said:

They also state that in the movie. There was a short window of time the Resistance fleet was in fighter range which is why Kylo couldn't stay to finish the job. Do you have any idea how fast those capital ships are moving? Realistically even Kylo should'nt have been able to do what he did.

The movies said nothing about the fleet being in fighter range or not. It said they couldn’t “support” the fighters at that range. They didn’t seem to need much support anyway.

2 hours ago, Forresto said:

The First Order strategy was to either follow the fleet if it hyper space jumped again or otherwise follow them as they slowly ran out of fuel one by one and destroy them.

A ship jumping in front of the Resistance would be uneccesary, and potentially impractical, you do realize space is three dimensional and the Resistance fleet could easily swerve to avoid the new ship

Swerving doesn’t help if you jump into weapons range of them. And if they swerve to avoid a new fleet in front of them, they’re now going basically perpendicular to where they were headed before and give the fleet behind them time to close distance.

2 hours ago, Forresto said:

The First Order is winning anyways and we've never seen a micro jump in Star Wars film, the only canon that matters when viewing a film.

We never saw someone jump out of a hanger or through a planets shields anymore (for better or for worse...)

Not having seen something on film before in no way no means it can’t be done.

1 hour ago, Forresto said:

Oh these forums are going to get ugly when Solo comes out and it won't matter how good or average the film is.

There has been a severe culture shift these past years and it's brought a lot of ugliness out at extremes.

I think that’s disingenuous - people can dislike (or, like me, be ambivalent about) TLJ without being determined haters-for-the-sake-of-it. We can all have actual opinions.

47 minutes ago, Schu81 said:

Did you actually e  njoy the "your momma jokes" in TLJ? Didn't you actually go to th  e cinema, wanting to learn more about Reys parents? Didn't you  wond  er about the character of Snoke before TLJ came out?   

Actually yes I did think Poe’s shenanigans were funny. And it’s a plot point, showing how arrogant he is after the victory of Starkiller has emboldened him.

and yes I wanted to find out about Rey’s family, and I did. They were trash hobos. Or Kylo lied and it is still a plot point for the next movie. Kylo could have been manipulating Rey, the orphan child of drunks, to join him, the descendent of heroes, to share in a greater destiny than just hunting down her parents.

Yeah, Snoke is still mysterious, and we may yet learn more about him. Just like how Palpatine had his backstory expanded from ‘evil guy who shoots lightning’ to ‘mastermind who fooled the entire galaxy’ with an entire trilogy. And we already know quite a bit about old Snoke. He is super strong in the force, he successfully seduced Ben Solo into destroying the new Jedi Order. He successfully bid to be the Supreme Leader of the transformed Imperial Remnant. He trained the Knights of Ren. And he’s been looking for Rey or someone like her, at first thinking Kylo was ‘the one’. He is also a super Pimp wearing that gold outfit. So we know quite a bit, just not every detail.

Details like:

is he human?

how old is he?

was he Sith or Jedi before? Something else?

Related to anyone we know?

where was he during the PT/OT?

and so on.

and really none of that matters in the context of the actual plot or even to his character as the guy who runs the bad guys, keeps Kylo down, and puts off creepy vibes. And, really, I suspect J. J.’s mystery box was full of hot air the whole time.

I see the main problem with TLJ as it whole film was just about telling us how stupid and incompetent everyone and his father is.

and it is a movie on his own, there is no story telling in the middle of a trilogy but just an action movie.

so for all the questions and story TFA comes up, you don't need to watch TLJ to go on with it in episode 9, the intro text will just say that Luke and the Resistance is dead and now the new plot starts

18 minutes ago, mazz0 said:

I think that’s disingenuous - people can dislike (or, like me, be ambivalent about) TLJ without being determined haters-for-the-sake-of-it. We can all have actual opinions.

Then you haven't been paying attention to how nasty it got after the Last Jedi.

For a good two months here and anywhere on the internet if you expressed an enjoyment or love of the film you were verbally berated for it.

Thats why there's a contention towards people who dislike the film because a cohort of them jammed it down all our throats how awful they thought it was and how dumb others were for enjoying it.

There was no room for positive opinions in those days to the haters. So the fans pushed back, hard.

So now we have this narrative that the haters of the film are under attack.

So if you're not the type putting Kathleen Kennedy in a Slave outfit or calling male fans of the films cucks or Soy, don't personalize it like we're going after you, cause we arent. We're going after the haters are spewing vitriol and nastiness at fans for enjoying something.

10 minutes ago, Forresto said:

Then you haven't been paying attention to how nasty it got after the Last Jedi.  

For a good two months here and an  ywhere on the internet if you expressed an enjoyment or love of the film you were verbally berated for it. 

Thats why there's a contention towards people who dislike the film because a cohort of them jammed it down all our throats how awful they thought it was and how dumb others were for enjoying it.

There was no room for positive  opinions in those days to the haters. So the fans pushed back, hard.  

 So now we have this narrative that the haters of the film are under attack.

So if you're not the type putting Kathleen  Kennedy  in a Slave outfit or call  ing male fans of the films  cucks or Soy, don't personalize  it like we're going after you, cause we arent. We're going after the haters are spewing vitriol and nastiness at fans for enjoying something.   

I think you're getting a lot of things wrong here.

Some people you call "haters" are the actual fans, who have been fans for decades. But they won't allow a big corporate group taking away their beloved Star Wars universe, just because they were rich enough to buy the merchandise.

Star Wars should be for the fans, who have kept this whole thing alive for almost 40 years now.

So why do you actually NOT support the people and go with the enterpise instead?

3 minutes ago, Schu81 said:

I think you're getting a lot of things wrong here.

Some people you call "haters" are the actual fans, who have been fans for decades. But they won't allow a big corporate group taking away their beloved Star Wars universe, just because they were rich enough to buy the merchandise.

Star Wars should be for the fans, who have kept this whole thing alive for almost 40 years now.

So why do you actually NOT support the people and go with the enterpise instead?

Because those we're fighting are the haters who don't consider me or anyone else fan for our enjoyment of the film.

What part of thar do you not understand?

I'm not saying you're not a fan for disliking the movie. I'm not going after you for disliking the movie.

But you're calling me a corporate shill and a sellout so cheers.

Thanks for being a decent fellow human being and making me feel great and happy to be in this fandom.

3 minutes ago, Schu81 said:

I think you're getting a lot of things wrong here.

Some people you call "haters" are the actual fans, who have been fans for decades. But they won't allow a big corporate group taking away their beloved Star Wars universe, just because they were rich enough to buy the merchandise.

Star Wars should be for the fans, who have kept this whole thing alive for almost 40 years now.

So why do you actually NOT support the people and go with the enterpise instead?

I don't know if it was intentional, but your logic implies that people who liked TLJ are not "actual" Star Wars fans, which is... not really ok.

Well, there are also the so called "fanboys", who tend to show a very uncritical behavior, meaning they will love & cherish every new product (or movie) a certain company gives to them

But I am not sure if somebody around here would actually want to be a part of this group?

Apart from that, there are also people who are just happy with.... less quality. They simply don't care about bad storytelling or plot holes, because they are much too distracted by the explosions

I am being quite bit sarcastic now, because I truly think some people are misunderstanding me on purpose.

I don't have a problem with any of you. If you love TLJ .... that's fine! I am happy for you

But actually some people were calling people "haters" instead of "fans" , which is even much more impolite than implying one person would not be a fan.

@Hobojebus , I love you man but I’m taking any of that bait.

anyway, I wish the Solo movie would hurry up so we can give it 2 1/2 to 3 stars out of four and get on with our lives.

4 hours ago, GrimmyV said:

18 seconds is enough time for light to make the round trip from the earth to the moon and back several times (roughly 5 iirc). Endor looks like it’s much larger than the half degree the Moon takes up in our sky. Sounds like that 4900 km is supposed to be the diameter of Endor? That would put it at around a degree or 1.5 degrees in the sky at the Earth-moon distance of approx 240,000 miles or 385,000 km (very sloppy math, round numbers). The DS2 was above Endor in an artificial stationary orbit possible through ubiquitous anti-grav technology.

So so we have a rough estimate of a possible upper limit of the average speed of the Rebel fleet: 385,000km/18s=Approx 21,400 km/s, pretty fast but not light speed, around 7% c or so. I’d say sublight speeds of 1 to 5% c are common when traveling inside star systems if accelerations of 100s of Gs are possible with the ships in question. Alot of the maneuvers seen in the films suggest accelerations of at least 10s of Gs. Higher sublight speeds are possible but usually not needed since hyperspace travel is incredibly accurate in placing ships within a few planetary radii of their destination.

That’s only about 10 to 20 Gs acceleration, but my math is just estimates so don’t take my word as absolute. But 12 hrs at 20 Gs does not get you to ‘just under’ the speed of light. It does get you to around 25% or more, (again, sloppy math) so yeah Crait would pop up pretty quickly from an invisible dot to a huge disc. Of course the Transports would need to decelerate for 12 hrs at 20 g or for a few hours at higher deceleration if they want to ever land on the planet.

Anyway this is all a useless excercise since NONE of this math was used during the writing or filming of TLJ.

Well like I said, I'm not a mathematician, am I? I was only stating that, basically, ships in Star Wars can accelerate and decelerate to crazy speeds like it's nobody's business.

So The Raddus reaching Crait is literally no problem.

2 hours ago, SabineKey said:

The “your mamma joke”: worth a chuckle. It was a quick line that didn’t make or break the movie. Even it’s removal doesn’t move the needle of enjoyment one way or thee other.

learning about Rey’s parents: I did learn about Rey’s parents. They were important because of Rey’s need for them, not who they actually were. I was satisfied with the explanation.

Snoke: Sure. And i’ll get answers later. I actually quite like the idea that his arrogance was his down fall, even with Palp’s example. It also gives Kylo more room to grow.

Now, to be clear, I am not defending TLJ as a perfect movie. It’s got its problems and plot holes. But so does every other Star Wars movie.

And no, i’m not interested in your dissection of the movie as i’ve been through that plenty of times with other people and it just leads to wasted effort on both sides. I’m not trying to change your mind on TLJ. You watched the movie, you formed an opinion. That’s all you and more power to you. But you have been using other arguments (like the merchandising) and comments (how can a TLJ fan call themselves SW fan?) that are frankly bull.

Hear frakkin' hear, praise be to this post.

1 hour ago, Forresto said:

Then you haven't been paying attention to how nasty it got after the Last Jedi.

For a good two months here and anywhere on the internet if you expressed an enjoyment or love of the film you were verbally berated for it.

Thats why there's a contention towards people who dislike the film because a cohort of them jammed it down all our throats how awful they thought it was and how dumb others were for enjoying it.

There was no room for positive opinions in those days to the haters. So the fans pushed back, hard.

So now we have this narrative that the haters of the film are under attack.

So if you're not the type putting Kathleen Kennedy in a Slave outfit or calling male fans of the films cucks or Soy, don't personalize it like we're going after you, cause we arent. We're going after the haters are spewing vitriol and nastiness at fans for enjoying something.

And this one.

2 hours ago, Hobojebus said:

But and here s the important thing the vast majority of people dislike the far left pushing progressive values on them.

Every time they do this it fails.

New atheism died a death, videogames like mass effect, marvel comics etc.

It's too extreme and only the fringe thinks it's acceptable, that's why trump was elected, it's why brexit happened.

The left went further left and we refused to follow.

So when you inject it into something the fans will reject it and it dies, every single time.

...And if this doesn't earn Hobojebus a spot on pretty much everybody's ignore list, I have no idea what to say.

1 hour ago, Schu81 said:

Star  War  s should be for the fans, who have kept this whole thing alive for almo  st 40 years  now.  

I call BS on this entitlement.

5 hours ago, Odanan said:

Yep you and others exhaustively did that. Even by derailing threads that have nothing to do with TLJ.

...Actually a little sorry for that.

4 hours ago, Forresto said:

Did you watch the movie?

They were going to jump again.

The first jump was the panicked escape from Daqar and they were going to jump again.

Then the First Order showed up.

Nitpick, if it wasn't a planned destination then it is fairly convenient that there was a Resistance base just nearby enough for them to get to with their sublight engines at full blast. And some people have made mention that it could have been because they planned this as a safe route, but I don't think that was actually mentioned in the film, like a fair number of other things. To me, that is one of the bigger flaws with the newer films, they sort of require people to do homework (read books, play games, etc) to get the full story and understand what all is going on.

4 hours ago, Forresto said:

Oh these forums are going to get ugly when Solo comes out and it won't matter how good or average the film is.

There has been a severe culture shift these past years and it's brought a lot of ugliness out at extremes.

Trust me, I really want to be surprised by Solo. I don't want bad Star Wars movies, I want good ones that we all as fans can love. But, hearing about all the horror behind the scenes and being burnt from TLJ I don't have tons of confidence in Solo, then again that just makes my expectations so low that the film might actually surprise me and be charming and enjoyable.

3 hours ago, Embir82 said:

Let me tell you one thing. I am not a fan of Star Wars, I play X-Wing thanks to great mechanic, good looking models and competitive scene.
But one thing is undeniable:
First two Star Wars films from 70's are objectively one of the greatest and most important works of art in cinema history - I watch those movies from time to time and their lasting power is undeniable. The imagination, visuals, talent and heart put in those films is astounding.
By comparison all other films from this cinematic universe are just plain bad - prequels are terrible movies, with stupid jokes, incoherent plot and merchandising focus, Disney's new movies are full of forced political correctness, dumb plot and lack of respect for established characters from old trilogy (look what they have done to Luke Skywalker), even ROTJD is terrible movie with stupid Ewoks and silly, cringe inducing scenes at the Jabba Palace. These days there is no heart and passion in Star Wars, only cynical excercise in merchandising.

No denying it for the first two films. I would argue that the PT do have a good story there, just that it is executed rather poorly, Lucas is not a good dialogue writer and definitely not a good director of people. But, still there was something there that was interesting and different for me, it wasn't just the OT again, which is what the ST sort of really feels like. Doesn't help that they like killing off old characters or dragging them through the dirt for drama.

2 hours ago, SabineKey said:

The “your mamma joke”: worth a chuckle. It was a quick line that didn’t make or break the movie. Even it’s removal doesn’t move the needle of enjoyment one way or thee other.

learning about Rey’s parents: I did learn about Rey’s parents. They were important because of Rey’s need for them, not who they actually were. I was satisfied with the explanation.

Snoke: Sure. And i’ll get answers later. I actually quite like the idea that his arrogance was his down fall, even with Palp’s example. It also gives Kylo more room to grow.

Now, to be clear, I am not defending TLJ as a perfect movie. It’s got its problems and plot holes. But so does every other Star Wars movie.

And no, i’m not interested in your dissection of the movie as i’ve been through that plenty of times with other people and it just leads to wasted effort on both sides. I’m not trying to change your mind on TLJ. You watched the movie, you formed an opinion. That’s all you and more power to you. But you have been using other arguments (like the merchandising) and comments (how can a TLJ fan call themselves SW fan?) that are frankly bull.

It might have been worth a chuckle at the theater but makes me groan thinking about it and does set a horrible tone for the film. Probably not the best idea to defang the antagonists of the film in the first few moments of it and then expect us to treat them as a real giant threat.

Rey's parents wouldn't even be a real issue if not for TFA, and that blame is all on JJ, it was set up as some big mystery and then like Snoke TLJ just gave a "Meh, don't care about it too much, moving on~"

2 hours ago, Hobojebus said:

But and here s the important thing the vast majority of people dislike the far left pushing progressive values on them.

Every time they do this it fails.

New atheism died a death, videogames like mass effect, marvel comics etc.

It's too extreme and only the fringe thinks it's acceptable, that's why trump was elected, it's why brexit happened.

The left went further left and we refused to follow.

So when you inject it into something the fans will reject it and it dies, every single time.

There is a culture shift, but how about we not get into politics in a forum about playing flying tiny spaceships in a fun game?

2 hours ago, VanderLegion said:

The movies said nothing about the fleet being in fighter range or not. It said they couldn’t “support” the fighters at that range. They didn’t seem to need much support anyway.

Swerving doesn’t help if you jump into weapons range of them. And if they swerve to avoid a new fleet in front of them, they’re now going basically perpendicular to where they were headed before and give the fleet behind them time to close distance.

We never saw someone jump out of a hanger or through a planets shields anymore (for better or for worse...)

Not having seen something on film before in no way no means it can’t be done.

Just more and more points on why they should have done something like that, too bad the FO has only read Tactics for Toddlers, if only they read Tactics for Dummies then they would know about pincer attacks.

1 hour ago, Kodos said:

I see the main problem with TLJ as it whole film was just about telling us how stupid and incompetent everyone and his father is.

and it is a movie on his own, there is no story telling in the middle of a trilogy but just an action movie.

so for all the questions and story TFA comes up, you don't need to watch TLJ to go on with it in episode 9, the intro text will just say that Luke and the Resistance is dead and now the new plot starts

That and how very clearly it was a case of a 'Yes And' story and when it got to Rian instead of continuing with the story he just completely went his own way making the film feel nothing like a middle chapter. Really, I wouldn't even be surprised if the boy from the end ends up being the main character of his trilogy if he still gets it.

9 minutes ago, Animewarsdude said:

It might have been worth a chuckle at the theater but makes me groan thinking about it and does set a horrible tone for the film. Probably not the best idea to defang the antagonists of the film in the first few moments of it and then expect us to treat them as a real giant threat.

Rey's parents wouldn't even be a real issue if not for TFA, and that blame is all on JJ, it was set up as some big mystery and then like Snoke TLJ just gave a "Meh, don't care about it too much, moving on~"

And that's an opinion you formed when you watched the movie. What I said was based on my opinion. Nothing wrong with either.

Just now, SabineKey said:

And that's an opinion you formed when you watched the movie. What I said was based on my opinion. Nothing wrong with either.

Completely fair point.

The problem with the "rule of cool" is that it makes for lazy writing. If the characters can just magic their way out of everything because the writers thought of something cool they want to film then nothing in the story has any weight.

It seems to me that the writers of TLJ don't understand that being a little loose with the science and having some things being fantastic doesn't mean you can do away with all the rules. It most especially means you can't do away with the rules to get your characters out of the mess they're in. The thing still needs some sort of foundation to rest on and some sort of ground for that foundation in things we understand and can relate to.

It seems to me that the current creators don't get this at all (if they do they hold in contempt) and I think that was constantly on display in TLJ.