There are other threads regarding flotillas in the latest FAQ, so I'll pose this...

What if both faction flotillas were costed equally 23 and 28, respectively?!

1. It can be argued that Bright Hope is the best flotilla title.

2. It can be argued that the rebel ones have the better navigation chart.

3. Yeah, but then when compared to each other, the rebel ones have less/no firepower but are costed equally? WTF are you thinking?! Hear me out...

It's an asymmetric game. The cost of individual pieces should reflect the synergy and power level of its own faction not in direct comparison to its enemy equivalent. When playing Imps, do you feel an Imp ship tax (e.g., Interdictor, Raider) makes it more difficult to build a diverse fleet? Rebels just have more wiggle room to make something unique.

If both side kill a flotilla, the Rebels automatically win.

@Tokra - I definitely want to hear your thoughts in particular.

Rebel flotilla's will always be better because one's base cost is 18 points and you can turn it into a pimped out pocket carrier....

Bright Hope + Toryn = amazing. That will always make your first GR75 better than most gozers.

You’d have to recost the Relay/Strategic squadrons.

@BrobaFetthas something to say about this.

The 5 point gap between a GR-75 and a Gozanti has always felt a little odd to me. Sure, the base Gozanti is superior to a base GR-75, but is it 27% better? Probably not. A blue flak die would've made it feel pretty good to me. Once you consider that generally the Rebels have better officers (Leia, Toryn) for their flotillas and generally superior titles (Bright Hope and Quantum Storm are both great and inexpensive titles, Vector and Suppressor can be effective but are more niche), the comparison gets even rougher.

That said, with flotillas no longer counting against tabling and being limited to only 2, the Gozanti being able to actually contribute (although slightly) in combat makes it less unappealing in the comparison than before the nerf.

24 minutes ago, Snipafist said:

That said, with flotillas no longer counting against tabling and being limited to only 2, the Gozanti being able to actually contribute (although slightly) in combat makes it less unappealing in the comparison than before the nerf.

There have been more than a few games I've been in where a Gozanti (over a few turns) was a deciding factor in a ship's death. Like bombers, you are hard pressed to use tokens defending against the attacks (and they can resolve crits) and spending time killing them means you aren't shooting at more juicy targets. That being said, I almost never choose to bring the combat retrofit. The lack of a double arc is a problem.

I actually think the blue dice out of the front/sides from the Gozanti are worth that 5 points - Gozantis end up being surprisingly consistent sources of damage in addition to whatever their primary function is in a given fleet, considering how easy it is to double-arc with one. It think it might be appropriate for the Gozantis to have armed/not armed variants available.

7 minutes ago, JauntyChapeau said:

I actually think the blue dice out of the front/sides from the Gozanti are worth that 5 points - Gozantis end up being surprisingly consistent sources of damage in addition to whatever their primary function is in a given fleet, considering how easy it is to double-arc with one. It think it might be appropriate for the Gozantis to have armed/not armed variants available.

yeah, that single little point of damage can be seriously annoying, especially if it's a crit on an unshielded ship...

3 minutes ago, durandal343 said:

There have been more than a few games I've been in where a Gozanti (over a few turns) was a deciding factor in a ship's death. Like bombers, you are hard pressed to use tokens defending against the attacks (and they can resolve crits) and spending time killing them means you aren't shooting at more juicy targets. That being said, I almost never choose to bring the combat retrofit. The lack of a double arc is a problem.

Don't get me wrong, I've definitely gone after things with double-arcing Gozantis and been pleased with the outcome as they produce annoying chip damage that adds up (living the dream with a con fire Gozanti double-arcing the Most Wanted target is the best). It's just the 5 point upgrade cost in that regard is very circumstantial. For a more aggressively run Gozanti, no problem. For a Comms Net slave or Bomber Command Center support Gozanti, those blue dice won't come into play much and you're basically spending 5 more points on a similarly-outfitted GR-75. Pre-nerf, Relay 2 on Jendon (/the occasional Lambda too) was the big thing for Gozantis over GRs. Nowadays I'm thinking that running Gozantis more aggressively is likely the way to get it done and that's fine. If anything, that's better than fine.

Re: the Combat GRs, I've generally seen them as a Toryn-augmented flak upgrade first and a "might as well, sure" anti-ship upgrade second. The 6 points is still too pricey for most people (including me). I'll also agree that double-arcing with a Gozanti is easier than a GR due to how the arcs work (against squads, obviously, but hypothetically against ships if the GRs had a side die). Exactly how much that's worth, I couldn't say.

4 minutes ago, Snipafist said:

For a Comms Net slave or Bomber Command Center support Gozanti, those blue dice won't come into play much and you're basically spending 5 more points on a similarly-outfitted GR-75.

Yup, totally agree there, it is more situational and would have been nice to have the choice (like the rebels) to disarm it for a cheaper ship. That way you could decide if it was worth the 5 points or not.

I feel there has got to be something that fills the gap between gozantis and raiders (making Raiders cheaper or giving them a redirect FFG).....If you try to build an MSU for the IMPs the points make things awkward at times when you approach the 5-6 activations....if you still want at least a GSD or better to be in your list.

Make Gozantis 18/24. That opens up 5/10 points which is crucial for Imps and their expensive baggage.

I think the Combat versions of both flotillas need to be re thought. I have rarely played (myself or against) any combat GRs, and never a Combat Gozanti.

I have always thought the Combat GR should have had 2 blue dice out the front. Or maybe a title that can add 2 dice when you concentrate fire. And the Combat gozanti certainly should be cheaper, I don't know how to help it besides that.

Rebel ships are in general cheaper than the Imperial ones (no idea why, they are not worse). Imperial really miss some good small ships that can compete with CR90 and Hammerhead, and no, the Raider cannot compete with these two.

Yes, the transport is way superior to the Gozanti. And this came as well with the nerf. Bright Hope + Toryn Far is so insane. You don't really have to care for the drawback from Toryn. The one blue die from the Gozanti might be nice, but imo it is a high price, to buy it with the 5 more points it costs. You don't want a combat ship, when it comes to the flotilla. You want a cheap ship that acts as activation, officer carrier or squadron carrier. And for this the Transport for 18 points is just perfect. There is not no alternative for the Gozanti, this is why it is played this much. And this is as well the reason all rebels are using the 18 point transport, and not the combat one with the attack dice.

I really hope that they will bring out some more Flotilla now. After the nerf there is no reason not to. Without the limit for 2 there would have been a big danger to bring out a new Flotilla. This danger is (more or less) gone now, and they can bring out some other small ships that fit the role of the transport or Gozanti.

Hm. We were excited about Bright Hope and everyone playing Rebels ran it relentlessly. We found it only really useful when acting as flak boat for squads. Usually, anything capable of reliably generating accuracies also throws enough damage to push past that 1 Reduction.

Frankly, in a faction with Avenger, Suppressor becomes the hands down best title to me. Add in Tua/ECM and you have a ship that cannot be one-shot that can flip tokens on multiple ships.

23 minutes ago, Church14 said:

Hm. We were excited about Bright Hope and everyone playing Rebels ran it relentlessly. We found it only really useful when acting as flak boat for squads. Usually, anything capable of reliably generating accuracies also throws enough damage to push past that 1 Reduction.

I have always found it to be a great title. Basically secures it from a lot of squadron fire and means someone is using a valuable big volley to kill it instead of something else, or it peskily survives.

5 minutes ago, draco193 said:

I have always found it to be a great title. Basically secures it from a lot of squadron fire and means someone is using a valuable big volley to kill it instead of something else, or it peskily survives.

It's an always on Major Derlin that only costs 2 points. The frustration of my opponent when he sees it is more than worth it.

6 hours ago, IceQube MkII said:

There are other threads regarding flotillas in the latest FAQ, so I'll pose this...

What if both faction flotillas were costed equally 23 and 28, respectively?!

Rebels would still have 2 lower cost non-flotilla alternatives. And large and medium ships that were also cheaper, point-for-point, than their Imperial alternatives.

1. It can be argued that Bright Hope is the best flotilla title.

No, it really can't. Bright Hope is the best 1 point upgrade in the game hands down.

2. It can be argued that the rebel ones have the better navigation chart.

Maybe. Gozantis actually have an edge on this one when it comes to avoiding combat.

3. Yeah, but then when compared to each other, the rebel ones have less/no firepower but are costed equally? WTF are you thinking?! Hear me out...

I love getting a kill with my Gozantis as much as anybody, but the opportunities to even fire with a well-played Gozanti against a ship that matters are few and far between. Flotillas are for support, not combat. Awkwardly, armed flotillas are almost entirely incapable of harming enemy flotillas.

It's an asymmetric game. The cost of individual pieces should reflect the synergy and power level of its own faction not in direct comparison to its enemy equivalent. When playing Imps, do you feel an Imp ship tax (e.g., Interdictor, Raider) makes it more difficult to build a diverse fleet? Rebels just have more wiggle room to make something unique.

The Imperial ship tax comes in three areas: higher costs for small ships, higher costs for medium ships, and higher costs for large ships. If it was just one area, you might see more diverse build options in the others as cost-effective solutions were found. But as it stands, Imperial players invest more points on their unmodified ships from Flotillas to Star Destroyers, and that makes every choice a further restriction on what can fit into the remaining points cap. But they only rarely get an actually superior ship for that investment in terms of survivability or damage output. Instead, Imperials theoretically have more multirole ships, but the game design consistently rewards specialization towards particular tasks. For example, a Gladiator has Squadron 2 but shouldn't ever be pushing squadrons as a carrier when it's designed for close range damage output. A VSD has squadron 3 and engineering 4, but can't keep its guns on target without a maneuver command.

If both side kill a flotilla, the Rebels automatically win.

This is actual great asynchronous balance, even though theoretically the loss of a Gozanti would probably be less important to the Empire than a resource-starved Rebellion.

There is one exception to the "Imperials pay more" stereotype, and that's the Quasar Fire. Imperials got a pair of "new" Star Destroyers just so that we could have an alternative to the ISD2 and bring our base ships costs more in line with Rebel large ships.

2 hours ago, thecactusman17 said:

There is one exception to the "Imperials pay more" stereotype, and that's the Quasar Fire. Imperials got a pair of "new" Star Destroyers just so that we could have an alternative to the ISD2 and bring our base ships costs more in line with Rebel large ships.

I would love a 4 squad carrier like the Quasar for the Rebels. But I’m sure the same can be said for Rebel ships the Empire people would like.. hence this thread.. so I try not to complain too much. Rebels have it pretty good for ship variety.

2 minutes ago, durandal343 said:

I would love a 4 squad carrier like the Quasar for the Rebels. But I’m sure the same can be said for Rebel ships the Empire people would like.. hence this thread.. so I try not to complain too much. Rebels have it pretty good for ship variety.

I agree.

Gladiators aren't seen other than Demo.

Arquitens are over costed and red die is unreliable especially at long range where it wants to be since the ship defenses work best at range.

Raiders are still tough to learn, but Punch above their weight. Still blows up easily.

VSD 1s were superseded by quasars in the carrier role while the gunship role is hampered by a poor nav chart.

VSD2s are decent now. Still kinda pricey.

Interdictors have thier gimmicks, but still cost a lot to make it worth it.

ISDs are the best imperial ship type though is expensive. You are realistically only bringing one or two.

I'm late to this topic but cninj is right. The flotillas a are huge asymettrical balance mistake that is a thorn in every imperials side.

Both should be erratad to 20 pts, to create an even point for the smallest activation in the game because assymetry in the activation game is NOT balanced. It's the most important dynamic in the game, and any advantage is too big of an advantage.

Gr75 should be nerfed to squad 1 as well, to reflect the symetry with their relay.

Similarly, the titles are huge middle finger to the imperials. Not just in the gozantis, but truthfully rebel titles accross the board.

Demo and Avenger were our "S" class titles and both have been nerfed to "A" while Yavaris got the training wheels taken off but is still the most insane title in the game. That should be errata' d to 35 points. It would still get taken, cause you tell a Rebel they can spend 35 points of their ship points to bring that many extra squads and they would, and yavaris essentially allows that. 35 is CHEAP for that effect. Your welcome Rebels.

Imperials should be issued a card pack with 2 new titles for the Victory (its time for a negative point upgrade to offset the fact that after slapping all the band aids on it they are as expensive as ISDS) 2 new titles for the Raider (seriously 2 antisquad titles? How about one that adds a redirect for 2pts) 2 new titles for the arquitens (role defining ones, like the nebulon titles, not niche garbage. Seriously, i am expecting something on yavaris level stupid strong), and 2 new titles for the gozanti in the 1pt range and equal strength to BH and QS (which each emulate a 7pt and 8pt upgrade respectively for 1 or 2 points.)

Here's my ideas for the Goz titles:

Give gozantis a 1pt title that acts as a built in non exhausting intel officer (7 pts). If they want to use a token against its attack, they must discard the token instead of exhaust it. Hard to abuse with no offensive upgrade slots, 1 or 2 damage tops, and no rerolls but makes them effective flotilla hunters and more of a solid step between a flotilla and a hammerhead which imperials desperately need.

The other title should be 2pts and give them the ability to resolve squad commands at an unlimited range. Kinda like old relay, but go ahead and skip the middleman. Flotillas still don't count for tabling so its not a lifeboat, and being a title limits it to one, but allows the imperials to safely and flexibly activate squads again which they really really needed and was taken away.

1 hour ago, BrobaFett said:

I'm late to this topic but cninj is right. The flotillas a are huge asymettrical balance mistake that is a thorn in every imperials side.

Both should be erratad to 20 pts, to create an even point for the smallest activation in the game because assymetry in the activation game is NOT balanced. It's the most important dynamic in the game, and any advantage is too big of an advantage.

Gr75 should be nerfed to squad 1 as well, to reflect the symetry with their relay.

Similarly, the titles are huge middle finger to the imperials. Not just in the gozantis, but truthfully rebel titles accross the board.

Demo and Avenger were our "S" class titles and both have been nerfed to "A" while Yavaris got the training wheels taken off but is still the most insane title in the game. That should be errata' d to 35 points. It would still get taken, cause you tell a Rebel they can spend 35 points of their ship points to bring that many extra squads and they would, and yavaris essentially allows that. 35 is CHEAP for that effect. Your welcome Rebels.

Imperials should be issued a card pack with 2 new titles for the Victory (its time for a negative point upgrade to offset the fact that after slapping all the band aids on it they are as expensive as ISDS) 2 new titles for the Raider (seriously 2 antisquad titles? How about one that adds a redirect for 2pts) 2 new titles for the arquitens (role defining ones, like the nebulon titles, not niche garbage. Seriously, i am expecting something on yavaris level stupid strong), and 2 new titles for the gozanti in the 1pt range and equal strength to BH and QS (which each emulate a 7pt and 8pt upgrade respectively for 1 or 2 points.)

Here's my ideas for the Goz titles:

Give gozantis a 1pt title that acts as a built in non exhausting intel officer (7 pts). If they want to use a token against its attack, they must discard the token instead of exhaust it. Hard to abuse with no offensive upgrade slots, 1 or 2 damage tops, and no rerolls but makes them effective flotilla hunters and more of a solid step between a flotilla and a hammerhead which imperials desperately need.

The other title should be 2pts and give them the ability to resolve squad commands at an unlimited range. Kinda like old relay, but go ahead and skip the middleman. Flotillas still don't count for tabling so its not a lifeboat, and being a title limits it to one, but allows the imperials to safely and flexibly activate squads again which they really really needed and was taken away.

I don't know about all these changes, but I do like the idea that if GR75s remain at 18 points they become squadron 1. Would make them effective as force multipliers and justify the cost differential between the two.

I'm ok with flotillas being cheaper. It's the remainder that doesn't make sense. Almost every Imperial ship being more expensive doesn't necessarily make sense. They're mass produced warships while the Rebellion is desperate for anything it can strap a hyperdrive to. Sure, the Rebel ships aren't expensive as a monetary value. But by comparison, Imperial ships are easy to acquire for the Empire. The resource investment at worst should be on par.

The issue is magnified by the Hammerhead.

Currently rebels have access to three activations for 72 points. (2 GR and an HH)

The closest the imps have are two gozantis and a raider at 90 points.

I’m not sure I totally agree that the asymmetrical balance right now is bad, but that point mismatch is definitely apparent.

Loving the discussion guys.

I'm too stupid. Is there a poll option on these forums?

Again...

My recommendation is to raise the points of flotillas to be equal.

I love the reduction of squadron on GR-75 transport to "1" though. Heck, I would remove the anti-dice on the better GR-75.

The Gozanti-ECM-Tua-Suppressor is devastating but you are still losing a 50ish-pt ship so you better be killing over 120 pts. In today's meta, we'd trade a Demo for Yavaris but then we're still down on points. Sorry, but you're gonna need to avg 7.5+ to make top two cuts at Worlds.