6 hours ago, Commander Kaine said:

I tell it how I see it.

What if you see it wrong? You're awfully insightful about a game that's not been released yet and we know nothing about the points cost of ships or upgrades, nor the majority of said ships and upgrades actual abilities.

6 minutes ago, Dr Zoidberg said:

What if you see it wrong? You're awfully insightful about a game that's not been released yet and we know nothing about the points cost of ships or upgrades, nor the majority of said ships and upgrades actual abilities.

Well... People are sometimes wrong... I hope to grow into a person who can handle that, through my ordeals on this forum.

Everyday, I make atrocious claims on this forum, waiting for me to get something wrong, so that I can benefit from the experience. In fact, I am technically farming people skills as we speak. This is the meatspace equivalent of killing boars for some XP.

...

What if am wrong? Nothing This is a forum. Nobody cares. You people are a fascinating lot.

6 hours ago, Commander Kaine said:

Look, FFG, I'm not gonna say he is broken without sufficient information on pricing...

But let's compare with Soontir, the other non force sensitive top-dog from OT ships.

In 1.0, both of their abilities were pretty strong, but the chassis of Wedge left something to be desired. Later, with the advent of bombs and mega ordnance, the Interceptor fell out of favor as well, not even AT could keep it viable.
But let's look at their abilities in a vacuum. There is just too much stuff going on that we don't know about.

As of their 1.0 version, they are both pretty strong, but roughly equal. Soontir could be used to modify attack or defense, Wedge just works offensively, but much stronger math wise. It's a fair balance between those two, if we don't look at how atrocious X-Wings were on release.

Now, in 2.0, FFG shows us that design wise, they are trying to remove abilities that work too reliably. Almost all of the upgrades that provide powerful bonuses have heavy restrictions in terms of requirements. Look what became of FCS or Crackshot. (again, not a balance question, their price probably changed as well)

Also, the X-Wing chassis, which was underwhelming in 1.0 is upgraded heavily. Luke seems to be a powerful ace on his on right (yay), and the ship has greatly increased capabilities. It is no longer an excuse (... a T65-x-cuse... sorry) to say that the chassis is holding the pilots back, so they need a bit of help.

So, given how Soontir and most of the upgrades and abilities we have seen so far have changed their wording to provide their bonuses ONLY if the player is controlling the ship expertly, AND that the X-Wing is now a capable ship on its own... WHY WASN'T WEDGE CHANGED ACCORDING TO THIS PHILOSOPHY?

Look. Wedge's ability is really strong. Put it in a number of other (better) ships in 1.0 and it becomes powerful immediately. price it well, and it becomes a top meta ship, especially at PS9 (I6). The reworked T65 is that better ship...

I'm not saying that Wedge is broken... he could be insanely expensive, especially fully built. That's fair.

It's just... Making such abilities is problematic, and something that 2.0 seems to go against. Why is this one pilot so much more powerful than the other things we have seen by now? What makes Wedge's ability more suited for all of its arc, than Soontir's? What is the justification behind this? What could it possibly be?

I think the problem with your argument is that you're comparing the two pilots and not the two ships.

Look at their dials and action bar. The interceptor can chain Boost and Barrel Roll in order to get enemies into their bullseye arc, whereas the X wing gets a barrel roll and maybe a boost if they have the card flipped the right way.

So for an Interceptor it is way easier to line up the whole arc, so that may be why they limited the ability to the bullseye, I mean let's be honest, before they are wiped off the board how long do Interceptors have their targets in sight? Usually pretty often. The x wing however has to work to get it done, so they dropped the bar lower for it.

The ability to 1 hard turn and barrel roll/boost should not be underestimated, I think the Interceptors will be fine in reference to their bullseye arc.

Just now, Warlon said:

I think the problem with your argument is that you're comparing the two pilots and not the two ships.

Look at their dials and action bar. The interceptor can chain Boost and Barrel Roll in order to get enemies into their bullseye arc, whereas the X wing gets a barrel roll and maybe a boost if they have the card flipped the right way.

So for an Interceptor it is way easier to line up the whole arc, so that may be why they limited the ability to the bullseye, I mean let's be honest, before they are wiped off the board how long do Interceptors have their targets in sight? Usually pretty often. The x wing however has to work to get it done, so they dropped the bar lower for it.

The ability to 1 hard turn and barrel roll/boost should not be underestimated, I think the Interceptors will be fine in reference to their bullseye arc.

I understand that claim, and to a degree I agree.

But I don't think it is an atrocious claim that it is easier to get a ship in Arc with an X-Wing, than to catch a ship in the bullseye arc of an interceptor. Or to put it in another way:

The actions and the dial of the Interceptor is not so much better when compared to the X-Wings, than the normal fire arc is bigger than the bullseye.

But, the ability itself, at least in my eye, is quite comparable.

3 hours ago, Commander Kaine said:

Oh, believe me, I can't wait for more rebel scum to be spoiled, so I can. Just you wait.

That’s fine, more useless forum posts for me still back and laugh at.

30 minutes ago, Commander Kaine said:

everything

I see your point. So far a few stuff seems really outstanding. My general feeling is that they toned down everything. So it seems only natural that something that kept their ability or got an even stronger ability will be the new Meta. It is easy to recognize:

- Vader (Pilot), simply too good. Brings not so fond memories of Alpha Strike back. Fully modded by the way. Who doesn´´t like to get their most precious ship taken off the board shooting round 1...

- Luke (Pilot and Crew), Crew is awful designed - brings back the PWT experience. I thought they want to let the past die? Not for rebels I guess. The pilot (with his near limitless use of force) has always a mini focus, so we have an heavy hitter too. Slide in with S-Foils closed, TL and with the soft Focus and rerolls you should be able to do some serious damage. Because the S-Foils don´t care about torpedos. Why did Luke not just close his wings in the trench? He would have never needed Hans help and the movie would have been shorter.

- Wedge (again with ordnance and this pilot skill and his ability - good night "arc dodgers"), his ability is to easy to trigger. 1 green dice less means a lot for ships like interceptors (after the downgrade of the evade action even more). I think people should get make to work a little to activate powerful abilities. The "In bulls-eye arc" would have been a great requirement for such a powerful ability.

- Veteran turret gunner

- Pilot Han, not only rerolls now, he can double reroll. and not only attacks. every fricking roll. great job. We build in a requirement... that is really easy to achieve (like rey especially got a new falcon title to make her achieve her shooting position in 1.0 in like 80% of the time)

On the other hand, some ships got taken away stuff (Evade on the advanced, no turtle for vader - so what the **** shall he do with his extra actions most of the time???) while rebels have barrel roll even on Y-Wings now.

I only hope they price stuff right... I am really looking forward to this edition. But I have a bad feeling about some stuff. But we have to wait until the conversion kits are coming.

8 hours ago, Rakaydos said:

Rebels are the "easy mode" faction for newbies- they probably have the LEAST bullseye related abilities.

Leave it to the maneuver-happy factions.

I thought Scum was, Everyone knows HArd Mode was Imperials

I also re-read my original post.

You guys are horrible. I mentioned pricing 3 different times, yet each of you brought it up like it's an original critique of my post.

I never made a claim that wedge is broken. I never said anything about balance.

If that's not ignoring my points on purpose (which I suspect), then you are simply unable to participate.

51 minutes ago, FlyingAnchors said:

That’s fine, more useless forum posts for me still back and laugh at.

Then you lot have the audacity to call my posts useless?

Also, I'd like to say that there have been people to bring up valid points that engaged my argument properly... And I accepted several of those points.

I don't think I'm being a bad sport.

Am I biased? Yes.

Am I hyperbolic and obnoxious? Guilty.

But I don't think my concerns, insights or posts are useless. I think I bring valuable discussion to the community, presented in a decent enough manner. I bring examples to illustrate my points and I am ALWAYS willing to engage in a debate, regardless of our differences in views.

So if you think that is useless, fine... Be it. I just don't know what type of content are you looking for.

Is your problem that I disagree with you? There is little amiss there I feel, since when presented with suitable arguments, I am and I have been able to change my views.

So, if you are right, and you can explain why, I will agree with you. I will not like it, but I will agree with you. As seen in this thread when I responded sth like "that's a fair point".

It is hard to argue for a 'rebel bias' when fairship swarm with Howlrunner/Versio is definitly going to be a thing. Don't need bullseye for that, either, it gives all of your ships Predator, but better. And Versio has Selflessness, but better. These two ships are a very exciting combo!

You also overestimate Wedges ability, it isn't anywhere near as good against non-TIEs. So if he scares you, include a Decimator in your list.

You are being a bad sport.

You're engaging in the forum version of political talk show hackery by utilizing a rhetorical device ("I'm not saying, but") to make a statement while not claiming ownership of it.

And people are rightfully calling you on it.

1 minute ago, ScottieATF said:

You are being a bad sport.

You're engaging in the forum version of political talk show hackery by utilizing a rhetorical device ("I'm not saying, but") to make a statement while not claiming ownership of it.

And people are rightfully calling you on it.

I mean... Who quotes Walter from the Big Lebowski unironically?

I don't agree with you, because I feel like I addressed this issue. I said this many times. I believe that any ability can be priced well, but that is not the point of my comment.

You may say I have a hidden agenda to claim wedge is OP anyway... But c'mon... I know it's an arc locked ship with 6 health and 2 agi... It's not exactly gonna wreck the world (unless priced at ridiculously low cost).

All my problem is, the seeming disparity between soontirs and wedges treatment with regards to their abilities, and previous versions.

Soontir got much weaker/skill based. I feel it wouldn't be going overboard to treat wedge the same way, and it makes me wonder why.

Now, folks pointed it out that I might overestimate Wedge, and there could be a number of other abilities that remain as they were, and soontir got shafted... And it could be that they still have access to a reworked Royal guard title or something else, which makes them great, so it was done with a reason.

I accept these points. However I don't think you are right in your assessment of the thread.

5 hours ago, Commander Kaine said:

I don't think I'm being a bad sport. 

Am I biased? Yes.

Am I hyperbolic and obnoxious? Guilty.

I'm just curious from a purely psychological perspective. You know these things about yourself, and are comfortable with them? That doesn't make you sit back and re-assess the way you choose to engage with people on public fora?

I have no interest in engaging with you on the "substance" of this thread, because it's nothing but pure speculation on a VERY weak amount of data, which has then (very predictably) devolved into accusations, and name-calling, and (by your own admission) hyperbole and obnoxious retorts. What I am interested in is wondering why you would voluntarily give yourself this much stress over a game?

I would think the sensible thing to do would be to simply sit back wait until release, and THEN form opinions based on what is actually in front of you. You're just giving yourself an ulcer over some hypothetical possibility you've built up in your mind, and then going onto a public forum and being combative about it. If that's the way you want to live, be my guest I suppose, but I'd be interested in knowing what motivates that.

I find this whole thing absolutely fascinating.

13 hours ago, ficklegreendice said:

The t65 got ONE MORE HULL and BARREL ROLL

And the Tallon Rolls, I'm looking forward to flying mine again (I personally admit I have 5 ...and Porkins has given me my best games as I fly him hard and gamble always; he hasn't let me down; he can "hold it!" soon even better)

12 hours ago, HolySorcerer said:

Here's hoping the Interceptor gets trolls and/or sloops.

If the vaunted T-65 got dial improvements, I'm betting the Interceptor did as well, as they had VERY little table time apart from Soontir; and I'm wagering the T-65 in Biggs was a bigger meta threat and ship historically (at the very top mats in the top games) than Soontir was. Therefore, with the fact that the Mouse seems to want iconic ships back at the top, Interceptor dials will most likely be an absolutely sick shade of blue.

21 minutes ago, direweasel said:

I find this whole thing absolutely fascinating.

Me too, forums are interesting and made for such inquiries and speculation that cause rants. I don't have enough info to cheer or boo, apart from the fact that: TLT is dead, YAY!!! and the beloved Lambda gets her rear cannons repaired, YAY!!!

...and turrets on the whole (save the Falcon I'm guessing) seem to be put in a more logical place and hopefully enjoyable to play against.

Even IF Wedge is too powerful like Op surmises, nerfing his card text is not how they'll do it moving forward. Wake up. They'll adjust his point cost and his upgrade bar until he falls in line. Quit making assumptions before the game is out.

Awesome! Time to lear fly X-Wing again! ?

Wedge meta in 2.0. Calling it now

Really there is a very easy way to tell how effective Fel’s ability can be in 2.0. Grab the template for a Kimogila, and use that for Fel’s template. This will allow you to see what a fast moving multi repositioning ship with a high initiative is capable of. While making use for the bullseye arc. It will then be improved/adjusted once you actually see what that dial ends up being.

As for Wedge, we have to see. I recall Wedge not being largely effective against a swarm of ties. If we get back into an aces vs swarms state like the game has had at times Wedge loses to multiple shots before he can take down ties even with his skill fast enough.

2 minutes ago, Ronu said:

Really there is a very easy way to tell how effective Fel’s ability can be in 2.0. Grab the template for a Kimogila, and use that for Fel’s template. This will allow you to see what a fast moving multi repositioning ship with a high initiative is capable of. While making use for the bullseye arc. It will then be improved/adjusted once you actually see what that dial ends up being.

As for Wedge, we have to see. I recall Wedge not being largely effective against a swarm of ties. If we get back into an aces vs swarms state like the game has had at times Wedge loses to multiple shots before he can take down ties even with his skill fast enough.

Well, Wedge with Proton Torps will be one-shotting TIEs fairly often. However, Iden Versio is a thing...

38 minutes ago, impspy said:

Wedge meta in 2.0. Calling it now

Nah Luke kicks his ***. Wedge will forever be in his shadow

Get out of here, wedge. You can't do any good back there!

I'd be willing to put money on Luke being more expensive than Wedge, to be honest. The Force abilities really do seem that powerful, especially with the rate he can recharge at.

4 hours ago, direweasel said:

I'm just curious from a purely psychological perspective. You know these things about yourself, and are comfortable with them? That doesn't make you sit back and re-assess the way you choose to engage with people on public fora?

I have no interest in engaging with you on the "substance" of this thread, because it's nothing but pure speculation on a VERY weak amount of data, which has then (very predictably) devolved into accusations, and name-calling, and (by your own admission) hyperbole and obnoxious retorts. What I am interested in is wondering why you would voluntarily give yourself this much stress over a game?

I would think the sensible thing to do would be to simply sit back wait until release, and THEN form opinions based on what is actually in front of you. You're just giving yourself an ulcer over some hypothetical possibility you've built up in your mind, and then going onto a public forum and being combative about it. If that's the way you want to live, be my guest I suppose, but I'd be interested in knowing what motivates that.

I find this whole thing absolutely fascinating.

I'm not really stressed. And why should I feel the need to change?

It's not like being sensible here has any benefits... And to assume anything from my behavior here is questionable at best.

Look. This is a forum. People don't act like they do in real life. If I pretend to be really all about the empire, and make stupid forum threads, as a sort of satire of part of the fanbase, it is my choice.

This is really no different from the image you or anyone else constructs of themselves when they post here.

About the missing information... Well sue me I am excited. It's not like I'm the only one posting threads that overanalyze second edition. Every post is about 2.0. I don't see why this thread is less valuable then the ones discussing its other aspects. Or the 1000th post where someone announces they leave the game because of it.

39 minutes ago, __underscore__ said:

I'd be willing to put money on Luke being more expensive than Wedge, to be honest. The Force abilities really do seem that powerful, especially with the rate he can recharge at.

Agreed completely

Though they may end up costing the same, force benefits v highest possible initiative (worth a lot since vi is gone)

All we know so far is Luke, Wedge, and a gold vet make a squad. Seems like a fun one too

18 hours ago, CasoPrime said:

I bet the point cost of wedge will make it balanced(as close as possible). I am actually really excited to try and outmaneuver wedge.. Mmm you get no green dice.. and nice plug for rebel bias.

I already tried to use him that way in 1.0, but currently the T-65 wasn't able to move around very well and make use. It was a little better with either BB-8 or the Flight Assist Astromech

14 minutes ago, Superstrength79 said:

I already tried to use him that way in 1.0, but currently the T-65 wasn't able to move around very well and make use. It was a little better with either BB-8 or the Flight Assist Astromech

1.0 wedge not so much. 2.0 With barrel roll and servo motors might be doable. Just the fact the he may be a little more competitive excites me....even as an imperial player.

19 hours ago, Commander Kaine said:

Look, FFG, I'm not gonna say he is broken without sufficient information on pricing...

But let's compare with Soontir, the other non force sensitive top-dog from OT ships.

In 1.0, both of their abilities were pretty strong, but the chassis of Wedge left something to be desired. Later, with the advent of bombs and mega ordnance, the Interceptor fell out of favor as well, not even AT could keep it viable.
But let's look at their abilities in a vacuum. There is just too much stuff going on that we don't know about.

As of their 1.0 version, they are both pretty strong, but roughly equal. Soontir could be used to modify attack or defense, Wedge just works offensively, but much stronger math wise. It's a fair balance between those two, if we don't look at how atrocious X-Wings were on release.

Now, in 2.0, FFG shows us that design wise, they are trying to remove abilities that work too reliably. Almost all of the upgrades that provide powerful bonuses have heavy restrictions in terms of requirements. Look what became of FCS or Crackshot. (again, not a balance question, their price probably changed as well)

Also, the X-Wing chassis, which was underwhelming in 1.0 is upgraded heavily. Luke seems to be a powerful ace on his on right (yay), and the ship has greatly increased capabilities. It is no longer an excuse (... a T65-x-cuse... sorry) to say that the chassis is holding the pilots back, so they need a bit of help.

So, given how Soontir and most of the upgrades and abilities we have seen so far have changed their wording to provide their bonuses ONLY if the player is controlling the ship expertly, AND that the X-Wing is now a capable ship on its own... WHY WASN'T WEDGE CHANGED ACCORDING TO THIS PHILOSOPHY?

Look. Wedge's ability is really strong. Put it in a number of other (better) ships in 1.0 and it becomes powerful immediately. price it well, and it becomes a top meta ship, especially at PS9 (I6). The reworked T65 is that better ship...

I'm not saying that Wedge is broken... he could be insanely expensive, especially fully built. That's fair.

It's just... Making such abilities is problematic, and something that 2.0 seems to go against. Why is this one pilot so much more powerful than the other things we have seen by now? What makes Wedge's ability more suited for all of its arc, than Soontir's? What is the justification behind this? What could it possibly be?

That was my 1st reation when i saw his text. Seems way more powerful than the rest of the stuff we got previewed so far...