2 minutes ago, Warlon said:

*Drops mic*

Why do people think that mentioning points I myself touched upon in my post is an adequate retort?

I mentioned point costs and that if it is priced fair, Wedge would be fair. And I think I make my biases clear in pretty much every post I make. I don't deny it.

But those criticisms don't touch upon the meat of my argument. It is essentially nitpicking, misdirecting. I'm talking about the supposed design principles, which aren't really supposed, they were stated by the devs. The fact that Wedge goes against those design principles is the point. Not the power. I really don't know how to make that clear.

FFG has already said Fel will be significantly more points than other Interceptors.

1 minute ago, Commander Kaine said:

Why do people think that mentioning points I myself touched upon in my post is an adequate retort?

I mentioned point costs and that if it is priced fair, Wedge would be fair. And I think I make my biases clear in pretty much every post I make. I don't deny it.

But those criticisms don't touch upon the meat of my argument. It is essentially nitpicking, misdirecting. I'm talking about the supposed design principles, which aren't really supposed, they were stated by the devs. The fact that Wedge goes against those design principles is the point. Not the power. I really don't know how to make that clear.

I think the issue is that the devs see these "design principles" as less of a code and more as guidelines. Wedge is outside of their initiative to move more abilities into the bullseye arc, but that doesn't mean that he is inappropriate for the game. He's just easy mode for all those rebel players. You know they wouldn't know what to do if they had to actually point an arc at something.

9 minutes ago, HolySorcerer said:

I think the issue is that the devs see these "design principles" as less of a code and more as guidelines. Wedge is outside of their initiative to move more abilities into the bullseye arc, but that doesn't mean that he is inappropriate for the game. He's just easy mode for all those rebel players. You know they wouldn't know what to do if they had to actually point an arc at something.

Problem is wedge isn't the only one to avoid this

There are TONS of pilots who don't use the bullseye arc. There are MORE than not

Bullseye is mostly just been for dice modifying upgrades

19 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

Problem is wedge isn't the only one to avoid this

There are TONS of pilots who don't use the bullseye arc. There are MORE than not

Bullseye is mostly just been for dice modifying upgrades

we'll see if TIE pilots add their extra dice in all of their arcs or just the bulls eye. Or the Inquisitor.

Their abilities are very similar to Wedge's

Just now, Commander Kaine said:

blah blah blah

You're a very angry person. I think you need some time away from the forums.

4 minutes ago, Chucknuckle said:

You're a very angry person. I think you need some time away from the forums.

2 hours ago, Commander Kaine said:

It's nice to see some effortless, meaningless contribution that adds nothing to the conversation. I almost missed it. I put my points down. I think they are fairly reasonable. Why does Wedge's ability need his full arc, especially when that is something the design is moving away from. You don't have an answer, so you just troll... Badly.

You don’t even know his cost. You have no idea how he flies or what he flies against. You don’t know the value of the ability and you certainly don’t know whether he’s too good. All you have is some apples and some oranges.

2 hours ago, Mrk1984 said:

The bullseye arc makes perfect sense to use for TIEs, their field of vision is less because of the solar panels.

X-Wings have a better view around them, and their guns are spread out more...

TIE Interceptors have their peculiar panels precisely to increase lateral vision.

19 minutes ago, Commander Kaine said:

we'll see if TIE pilots add their extra dice in all of their arcs or just the bulls eye. Or the Inquisitor.

Their abilities are very similar to Wedge's

So if backstabber exists you’ll argue that we need to buff wedge, right? Because you know red dice are better than greens.

2 minutes ago, TasteTheRainbow said:

So if backstabber exists you’ll argue that we need to buff wedge, right? Because you know red dice are better than greens.

Yes... You are indeed a lobster.

3 hours ago, Commander Kaine said:

So? It flies better, but has less health and no shields. That's not the point

How many times can you use a focus token? And it falls off at the end of the turn... How is that permanent? Oh, you were just saying a random, unrelated factoid about Wedge's ability, that in no way relates to the conversation.

Git... smarter?

Maybe focus other more prominent broken pilot abilities that need reworking and leave my man Wedge alone?

5 minutes ago, FlyingAnchors said:

Maybe focus other more prominent broken pilot abilities that need reworking and leave my man Wedge alone?

Oh, believe me, I can't wait for more rebel scum to be spoiled, so I can. Just you wait.

1 hour ago, Commander Kaine said:

:Generic whining:

Says the guy who's entire premise for the thread is based on whining about 'rebel bias' in things that are yet to be established...

4 minutes ago, Rat of Vengence said:

Says the guy who's entire premise for the thread is based on whining about 'rebel bias' in things that are yet to be established...

It... was meant to be ironic... and about myself...

7 minutes ago, Commander Kaine said:

It... was meant to be ironic... and about myself...

Oh. It didn't come across as such, but thanks for explaining that.

5 minutes ago, Rat of Vengence said:

Oh. It didn't come across as such, but thanks for explaining that.

Probably my fault. I know I can be an @ss, but I am at least self aware

I can't say I agree with your opening premise. Soontir's 1.0 ability is league's better than Wedge's, especially given their respective ships. Their abilities also do different things; Fel's ability was guaranteed to improve his ship's already strong defensive profile (Well, in a world where bombs are balanced, it is), while Wedge's messes with an opponent's defensive profile, which is an unknown quantity; it'll be great if you face a Tie Swarm or some A-wing Aces who live and die by their green dice, but pretty pointless against a decimator or a flight of 1-agility B-wings, who rely on alternate means to survive. So Wedge's ability being unchanged while Fel's is changed isn't that surprising.

I'd also argue some previous poster's comments about skill floor do have some merit. While I don't think any one faction should have a lower skill floor, certain ships certainly should, and it makes sense that a ship which primarily jousts like the X-wing has pilot abilities which are easier to use than a tricky arc dodger like the Interceptor.

25 minutes ago, Squark said:

I can't say I agree with your opening premise. Soontir's 1.0 ability is league's better than Wedge's, especially given their respective ships. Their abilities also do different things; Fel's ability was guaranteed to improve his ship's already strong defensive profile (Well, in a world where bombs are balanced, it is), while Wedge's messes with an opponent's defensive profile, which is an unknown quantity; it'll be great if you face a Tie Swarm or some A-wing Aces who live and die by their green dice, but pretty pointless against a decimator or a flight of 1-agility B-wings, who rely on alternate means to survive. So Wedge's ability being unchanged while Fel's is changed isn't that surprising.

I'd also argue some previous poster's comments about skill floor do have some merit. While I don't think any one faction should have a lower skill floor, certain ships certainly should, and it makes sense that a ship which primarily jousts like the X-wing has pilot abilities which are easier to use than a tricky arc dodger like the Interceptor.

I don't know. I feel iffy about "easy" ships, especially when there isn't a limiting factor in place.

As of 2.0, Wedge is about 10 times easier to trigger. Granted, the added mobility of the Interceptor helps in this regard, but nowhere near the levels people claim it does. It is still way harder to trigger Soontir.

Now is the impact 10 times stronger? No it really isn't. Not even twice as strong.

Now I have my suspicions about FFG's pricing and agenda. (as if that wasn't obvious). Right now, it seems like Wedge greatly outclasses Soontir in value. Like at least 25-30%. Wedge can one shot Soontir, and Soontir doesn't move that much better. At equal skill, especially with the R4 astromech upgrade, Wedge is only a little bit behind in positioning. At equal skill, I really doubt Soontir could reliably trigger his ability, unlike Wedge, who triggers it everytime he attacks.

Yeah, Soontir's focus token has more uses, but it will trigger way less.

Let's say both ships live long enough to fire 6 shots. Even if Soontir triggers on 3 (which is a very generous estimation), he is still behind in value. Not even mentioning the cost of activating the trigger, he will probably burn at least 1 action on positioning, something that Wedge doesn't have to.

I know Wedge will be probably very expensive. I just really doubt Soontir is going to be 20 points cheaper.

But hey, y'all can tell me I was a stupid idiot if he is.

5 hours ago, Commander Kaine said:

Look, FFG, I'm not gonna say he is broken without sufficient information on pricing...

But let's compare with Soontir, the other non force sensitive top-dog from OT ships.

In 1.0, both of their abilities were pretty strong, but the chassis of Wedge left something to be desired. Later, with the advent of bombs and mega ordnance, the Interceptor fell out of favor as well, not even AT could keep it viable.
But let's look at their abilities in a vacuum. There is just too much stuff going on that we don't know about.

As of their 1.0 version, they are both pretty strong, but roughly equal. Soontir could be used to modify attack or defense, Wedge just works offensively, but much stronger math wise. It's a fair balance between those two, if we don't look at how atrocious X-Wings were on release.

Now, in 2.0, FFG shows us that design wise, they are trying to remove abilities that work too reliably. Almost all of the upgrades that provide powerful bonuses have heavy restrictions in terms of requirements. Look what became of FCS or Crackshot. (again, not a balance question, their price probably changed as well)

Also, the X-Wing chassis, which was underwhelming in 1.0 is upgraded heavily. Luke seems to be a powerful ace on his on right (yay), and the ship has greatly increased capabilities. It is no longer an excuse (... a T65-x-cuse... sorry) to say that the chassis is holding the pilots back, so they need a bit of help.

So, given how Soontir and most of the upgrades and abilities we have seen so far have changed their wording to provide their bonuses ONLY if the player is controlling the ship expertly, AND that the X-Wing is now a capable ship on its own... WHY WASN'T WEDGE CHANGED ACCORDING TO THIS PHILOSOPHY?

Look. Wedge's ability is really strong. Put it in a number of other (better) ships in 1.0 and it becomes powerful immediately. price it well, and it becomes a top meta ship, especially at PS9 (I6). The reworked T65 is that better ship...

I'm not saying that Wedge is broken... he could be insanely expensive, especially fully built. That's fair.

It's just... Making such abilities is problematic, and something that 2.0 seems to go against. Why is this one pilot so much more powerful than the other things we have seen by now? What makes Wedge's ability more suited for all of its arc, than Soontir's? What is the justification behind this? What could it possibly be?

I'm not sure why you kept typing after the highlighted portion. They just announced the second edition, it's months away and we can only speculate (assume? hope? pray?) they're still working on it.

I guess I just don’t really understand what design parameter Wedges ability is breaking. OK, he uses his full primary arc instead of his bullseye arc, but it’s still very much an arc and requires careful piloting to get the best use of it. Is it powerful? Yes, it is. Most of the upgrades we’ve seen use the bullseye arc anyway, so if Wedge needs to BR he’s going to want everything in bullseye anyway.

2 hours ago, Jehan Menasis said:

TIE Interceptors have their peculiar panels precisely to increase lateral vision.

They still have huge pointy triangles taking up quit a bit of viewing area. Not that a TIE pilot cares for seeing too much out that window, he sits way back away from the front of the TIE and so can’t even see the front of the wing panels. Technically a TIE pilot could press his helmet against the viewport and have a greater field of view than a Rebel pilot since their dorsal mounted canopies preclude vision on the underside of the craft, and neither broad designs lend themselves to viewing the rear.

Cameras feeding a VR helmet would make more sense than bubble canopies exposing the pilot, especially a pilot not wearing a sealed suit.

I'm not going to get into the bickering rabble.. but I do think Wedge will be quite expensive considering we know Luke is 70pts (to start) and at I5 has not suffered the 'Ace Tax' as far as we know.

The beauty of the app is if anything is unbalanced on release, the fix is only a button click away.

I'm also excited to see how Fel 2.0 ends up. From the info we have currently. He could have a build that makes him far more interesting than 1.0. Something like Outmanoeuvre and Afterburners coupled with the Interceptors ship ability will make him quite gnarly, and probably allow him to populate that bullseye arc more often than not. Pure conjecture of course, but the future is bright.

2 hours ago, Commander Kaine said:

we'll see if TIE pilots add their extra dice in all of their arcs or just the bulls eye. Or the Inquisitor.

Their abilities are very similar to Wedge's

I'm not giving any opinion to your statement, but we do know at least Mauler gets his extra die no matter what.

"While you perform an attack at attack range 1, roll 1 additional attack die."

There's also Cheri getting mods against enemies in the quadrant he reinforced

That's gotta be bullseye balanced

Or whisper's free evade. Gotta balance that

Or hey, palpatine gives action independent modifiers across the table. That's a BIG no-no. Put a bullseye-only on him

Or the fang fighter faceoff

Etc

6 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

There's also Cheri getting mods against enemies in the quadrant he reinforced

That's gotta be bullseye balanced

Or whisper's free evade. Gotta balance that

Or hey, palpatine gives action independent modifiers across the table. That's a BIG no-no. Put a bullseye-only on him

Or the fang fighter faceoff

Etc

I kinda preferred you guys making fun of me... With your sound logic and reasonable arguments.