I had a fantastic time at Worlds, and it was great reconnecting with so many people I've played before and meeting new attendees! I particularly enjoyed hanging out with the UK guys throughout the week.

I just finished listening to the two part Zion's Finest/Fully Armed and Operational podcast of the Worlds experience, and I fully agree with the assessment they made that the meta is currently in the best place it has been since the game started competitively. I also agree that there is some room for improvement, and the future could be tricky. So I wanted to begin a discussion on how we, the IA players, feel the game could be improved within the current framework of the rules (I don't think the game has developed to a point where a new version is needed). Here are some of my observations, as informed by open discussions with the devs and listening to the podcasts:

• Temporary Alliance was initially put into the game as a way to increase options in the early stages of the game, but it has outlived its usefulness and is starting to constrain design space. The biggest example of this is the regular appearance of Gideon and/or Hera in Merc lists, even alongside Jabba. With Elite Jawas, the amount of support available to Mercs is equal to the Rebels, and Mercs have a lot of tricks that are unavailable to Rebels.
• The options for each faction are pretty set. Imperials need Zillo, eJets are must takes, and Vader is nearly a must take. Mercs need IG-88 and eWeequays along with support from Rebels. Rebels need the Care Package, Han, and eRangers are a near auto-include.
• Hunter and Smuggler command cards are dominant, which favors Mercs and Rebels, though the Vehicle cards are part of what makes eJets so good.
• Stacking cards allows huge shifts. I had Onar one-shot my AT-DP in a practice game with four command cards. We had seven dice stacked up on the dice tray (some to represent Assassinate and other modifiers).
• The maps in rotation have a huge effect on the meta, as seen in DT shifting from Vader, eJets, and Riots to his Worlds list as a result of the map change.
• Any changes have a very high bar of proof to put into effect: it's way to easy to make a change that creates way more problems than it fixes.

It is perfectly possible to simply accept that these conditions are part and parcel of the design space and as long as they're considered in the future, new releases can contain balancing forces to bring things back to a balance. For myself, I think the number one change that needs to be made is that Temporary Alliance needs to be retired from the game. Does this significantly disadvantage Mercs compared to the other factions? If so, how would that be addressed? One comment that was made on the podcast is that eWeequays without Focus are still a significant threat, but eRangers without Focus are nothing to write home about. I completely agree, and note that between eJawa/C-3PO and Jabba, Mercs still have access to Focus.

What are your thoughts? Is there a way we can start running some test games to determine how changes would be made? I'd love to do some control tests of top meta lists vs lists without Temporary Alliance and then with Temporary Alliance to see how the game would be affected.

I'm coming around to the fact that Temporary Alliance as is, could be done without. Mercs (who have traditionally had the most use for it) have access to support such as Jabba, Clawdites and Threepio still. However, there are also a lot lost with just retiring these cards. Adding Han, Lando or Hera to a Merc list, all of whom has at different points worked for various crimelords still has thematic value. Or adding Maul to an Imperial list to make a Phantom Menace like list with Palpatine and some droids.

So instead of a blanket retirement, I think they should be renewed (ie. retire the current versions and make new ones), like:

Always Two There Are (1): You may include 1 [Merc] Force User deployment card in your army.

Wretched Hive (1): You may include up to 2 [Rebel] Smuggler deployment cards in your army.

Obviously some of this could also be done through figures (such as has been done with Jawas and Saska).

You know how they fix temp alliance? Don't let C-3PO and Gideon focus Scum (like Jabba can only focus Scum).

What if they just did a simple errata to temporary alliance that added the word "non-unique" after the number 2?

2 minutes ago, kennydkbrown said:

You know how they fix temp alliance? Don't let C-3PO and Gideon focus Scum (like Jabba can only focus Scum).

That is a very elegant solution, Kenny!

2 minutes ago, kennydkbrown said:

You know how they fix temp alliance? Don't let C-3PO and Gideon focus Scum (like Jabba can only focus Scum).

Yeah that seems like the simpliest, and most sensible thing to do. Just clarify that some of those super good abilities only work on their own Rebel units. Same could go for Hera too.

Just now, Rogue Dakotan said:

What if they just did a simple errata to temporary alliance that added the word "non-unique" after the number 2?

aermet69 does make a good point about the thematic elements of Temp Alliance, which aren't served nearly as well by non-unique. So the real question is: what benefits would such a change have beyond a simple retirement?

21 minutes ago, kennydkbrown said:

You know how they fix temp alliance? Don't let C-3PO and Gideon focus Scum (like Jabba can only focus Scum).

I honestly think that this is the answer. I love using Temp Alliance to bring odd pairings. Onar and Vader work really well together, and JKL in Scum makes for some crazy fun list building. Don't let Gideon and Threepio ruin all the fun for everyone.

Listen! X-wing 2.0 banishes Boba Fett from the Imperials. Now you want to do the same for IA? A man's gotta eat.

38 minutes ago, kennydkbrown said:

You know how they fix temp alliance? Don't let C-3PO and Gideon focus Scum (like Jabba can only focus Scum).

No. Nuke it from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.

1 hour ago, kennydkbrown said:

You know how they fix temp alliance? Don't let C-3PO and Gideon focus Scum (like Jabba can only focus Scum).

I have a very similar solution: Gideon gets FAQ'd so that On My Mark only works on Rebel figures within 3 spaces. And we leave C-3PO alone .

This way, Mercs still get the ability to double-Focus once per round, but they'll have to use Temp Alliance, Threepio & Jabba to do it. Jabba takes up 3 more points of a Smuggler/Hunter list than Gideon. Those points would normally go to Devious Scheme and/or Greedo.

Meanwhile for the Rebels, Gideon's positioning becomes another ball Rebels have to juggle if they want to run him. No more "Gideon does crazy line-of-sight tricks from the deployment zone to Focus Han halfway across the map again" stuff. Players will likely keep someone like Jyn or Hera closer to Gideon so he can focus them on the 2nd round, or have Ahsoka to jump back early 2nd round so that Gideon can re-Focus her before the 3rd round.

Threepio is already fairly balanced since he cannot attack and only has a speed of 3. He's a delightful pain-in-the-bantha.

46 minutes ago, miguelj said:

No. Nuke it from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.

I appreciate this reference ?

-ryanjamal

Thematically mercs should be able to temp alliance to other factions not the other way around. They're mercenaries after all and will fight for the highest bidder. But this is a balance conversation, not a thematic conversation. If you want theme, play campaign or just play a casual house rules skirmish game.

Balance wise, I know DT won worlds with mercs, but really it was a han/rangers list with IG and eQuays taking their place. I don't see a lot of uniquely merc lists that aren't knockoffs of rebel lists. Removing TA would force more merc list innovation. Right now, the RCP is the best use of six points in a merc list so it limits list design space.

25 minutes ago, cnemmick said:

I have a very similar solution: Gideon gets FAQ'd so that On My Mark only works on Rebel figures within 3 spaces. And we leave C-3PO alone .

This way, Mercs still get the ability to double-Focus once per round, but they'll have to use Temp Alliance, Threepio & Jabba to do it. Jabba takes up 3 more points of a Smuggler/Hunter list than Gideon. Those points would normally go to Devious Scheme and/or Greedo.

Meanwhile for the Rebels, Gideon's positioning becomes another ball Rebels have to juggle if they want to run him. No more "Gideon does crazy line-of-sight tricks from the deployment zone to Focus Han halfway across the map again" stuff. Players will likely keep someone like Jyn or Hera closer to Gideon so he can focus them on the 2nd round, or have Ahsoka to jump back early 2nd round so that Gideon can re-Focus her before the 3rd round.

Threepio is already fairly balanced since he cannot attack and only has a speed of 3. He's a delightful pain-in-the-bantha.

Yeah I think Gideon needs a nerf. It's absurd how Rebels have other figures at 3 and 4 cost who don't have a +2 damage surge (I mean he normally doesn't attack till late in games, but he can actually hit pretty nice, especially if focused). I think if you don't nerf him, at least you should make Temporary Alliance a 2 cost card (therefore the rebel care package costs 7, or Hera and Gideon costs 9 compared to Jabba for 6). I think simply having LOS is too powerful for a 3 cost figure (the only other figure with such a powerful LOS ability is Vader, and he costs 13), so the range should be limited (Command is 3 spaces in Campaign, that seems pretty reasonable). It seems that all the Rebel figures are costed to take into account these figures nowadays, and even some of the new ones still didn't hit the mark (Ko Tun is still arguable, but Jarrod is poo poo right now- just compared his damage output to an elite Jawa and it's ridiculous how little more value you get for a melee, 2 more cost unit).

I'm definitely with everyone that the meta is in a better place than it's ever been, but (disappointingly) from a financial standpoint, over half of the units and cards are not seriously viable in competitive skirmish, and I'm not saying every card should be (fun ones are okay too sometimes) but there's way too many that aren't and it just feels bad to have all of this stuff that feels wasted for skirmish just sitting around (we need lots of fixes for older units). Part of the reason for the lack of variety is because Rangers/Han plus the rcp+ are obviously better than just about anything else they have to offer (except JK Luke, and Chewbacca sometimes can be awesome). That's basically 31 points of your list already determined beforehand...that doesn't feel like enough variety to me. Same thing goes for Mercs with Weequays (and arguably IG 88, but I would say he's not as auto-include as Han though I know some would disagree with that but I think spies will make a resurgence in the near future therefore hurting him). One thing that could nerf Gideon substantially would be that he could only focus once per game (which would help mitigate some of the slow play on Uscru we will have to do with for the next year).

23 minutes ago, TheChrisLS said:

I had a fantastic time at Worlds, and it was great reconnecting with so many people I've played before and meeting new attendees! I particularly enjoyed hanging out with the UK guys throughout the week.

I just finished listening to the two part Zion's Finest/Fully Armed and Operational podcast of the Worlds experience, and I fully agree with the assessment they made that the meta is currently in the best place it has been since the game started competitively. I also agree that there is some room for improvement, and the future could be tricky. So I wanted to begin a discussion on how we, the IA players, feel the game could be improved within the current framework of the rules (I don't think the game has developed to a point where a new version is needed). Here are some of my observations, as informed by open discussions with the devs and listening to the podcasts:

• Temporary Alliance was initially put into the game as a way to increase options in the early stages of the game, but it has outlived its usefulness and is starting to constrain design space. The biggest example of this is the regular appearance of Gideon and/or Hera in Merc lists, even alongside Jabba. With Elite Jawas, the amount of support available to Mercs is equal to the Rebels, and Mercs have a lot of tricks that are unavailable to Rebels.
• The options for each faction are pretty set. Imperials need Zillo, eJets are must takes, and Vader is nearly a must take. Mercs need IG-88 and eWeequays along with support from Rebels. Rebels need the Care Package, Han, and eRangers are a near auto-include.
• Hunter and Smuggler command cards are dominant, which favors Mercs and Rebels, though the Vehicle cards are part of what makes eJets so good.
• Stacking cards allows huge shifts. I had Onar one-shot my AT-DP in a practice game with four command cards. We had seven dice stacked up on the dice tray (some to represent Assassinate and other modifiers).
• The maps in rotation have a huge effect on the meta, as seen in DT shifting from Vader, eJets, and Riots to his Worlds list as a result of the map change.
• Any changes have a very high bar of proof to put into effect: it's way to easy to make a change that creates way more problems than it fixes. 

It is perfectly possible to simply accept that these conditions are part and parcel of the design space and as long as they're considered in the future, new releases can contain balancing forces to bring things back to a balance. For myself, I think the number one change that needs to be made is that Temporary Alliance needs to be retired from the game. Does this significantly disadvantage Mercs compared to the other factions? If so, how would that be addressed? One comment that was made on the podcast is that eWeequays without Focus are still a significant threat, but eRangers without Focus are nothing to write home about. I completely agree, and note that between eJawa/C-3PO and Jabba, Mercs still have access to Focus.

What are your thoughts? Is there a way we can start running some test games to determine how changes would be made? I'd love to do some control tests of top meta lists vs lists without Temporary Alliance and then with Temporary Alliance to see how the game would be affected.

9 minutes ago, TheWelcomeMat88 said:

(we need lots of fixes for older units)

The problem is not Temporary Alliance, the problem is Gideon and 3p0 are just too good right now, for both factions.

Whether that is best fixed by making them cost more or altering abilities, I'm not really sure, but removing TA only addresses the issue for mercs and not rebels.

Alternatively, there could be new cards/abilities that make them not as good/must have. We'll just have to wait and see.

17 minutes ago, DTDanix said:

The problem is not Temporary Alliance, the problem is Gideon and 3p0 are just too good right now, for both factions.

Whether that is best fixed by making them cost more or altering abilities, I'm not really sure, but removing TA only addresses the issue for mercs and not rebels.

Alternatively, there could be new cards/abilities that make them not as good/must have. We'll just have to wait and see.

I mean, they can both be problems, right?

I'd prefer TA to be gone because I see it as an burden on the design space. Every rebel figure has to be balanced against "would this be broken in a Scum list?"

I'd much rather each faction have its own identity, which to their own respect rebels and imperials do. Scum tries, but because TA exists, it comes off as some kind of weird offshoot Rebel hybrid.

It's not going anywhere.

1 hour ago, DTDanix said:

Alternatively, there could be new cards/abilities that make them not as good/must have. We'll just have to wait and see.

also, can be schemed around by missions a bit also. Jawa map pushes people together and the fighting starts early in round 2. Not using 3PO/Gideon until the end of round 2 lowers their value

Temp Alliance isn't going anywhere. Mercs are balanced around receiving focus as much as Rebels are at this point. if TA went away right now, Mercs would be awful.

1 hour ago, DTDanix said:

Alternatively, there could be new cards/abilities that make them not as good/must have. We'll just have to wait and see.

Is this a subtle reference to cards you have in the pipeline?

1 hour ago, Fightwookies said:

if TA went away right now, Mercs would be awful.

Isn’t that the point? ?

-ryanjamal

I don't think they'd be awful. That's overstating it a bit. I've always said Gideon was overpowered from the beginning. A minor change in Gideon fixes the whole problem. TA still has a place, in fact, it keeps the door open for greater diversity. Otherwise Mercs become the weequay IG and Onar band in every competitive venue.

Honestly weequay never should have got Hunter as a trait either. Gideon could be Rebel only

Anyone else suffering from déjà vu?

I love people saying that current meta is great and in a good shape but then they want to nerf stuff left and right!

1 hour ago, buckero0 said:

I don't think they'd be awful. That's overstating it a bit. I've always said Gideon was overpowered from the beginning. A minor change in Gideon fixes the whole problem. TA still has a place, in fact, it keeps the door open for greater diversity. Otherwise Mercs become the weequay IG and Onar band in every competitive venue.

Honestly weequay never should have got Hunter as a trait either. Gideon could be Rebel only

I think the reroll is the problem. Shouldnt be able to reroll defender dice (would make them not able to use tough luck as a heightened reflexes). It could makr HKs valuable again