Ok FFG, I have to say - up until this point I have really enjoyed your work on the Warhammer 40k RPG line. However Ascension, this newest book is definitely your worst so far.

I just got my copy a few days ago and was super excited to finally see what Inquisitorial / Throne Agent level of play would really be about. I was sadly disappointed.

First - a few words about what I liked. Your work on the Vindicaire Assassin was wonderful, including their gear and some words on their background. Also it was nice to see some stats for the arch heretics and villains such as the Herald of Khorne and the Lord of Change. I also liked the new artwork in the book, it was nice to not see constant cut and paste from existing work. I even liked the transition packages (although frankly there could have been more of them).

However the work done on the Throne Agent Classes is absolutely your worst, no question. Having played through a complete campaign of Dark Heresy, I can tell you that my players would not have spent a year of game play to one day become...a Desperado??? I'm pretty sure they handled the "guy with two pistols" gig along the way. And how is a "Death Cultist" on par with a "Vindicaire Assassin"? It shouldn't even be close - death cultist is what an assassin is on her way to become a temple assassin. Thats the whole joy behind the Moritat. Your Magos is like having 9 more levels of being stuck as the same exact character - not even any real new additions. Sage and Stormtrooper are just pathetic synonyms for Adept and Guardsman. Its PATHETIC!

I really expected the throne agents to be more along the lines of Crime Lords and Imperial Guard Heroes (like Sly Marbo or Comissar Yarick). I would have rather had the Callidus Assassin temple instead of Death Cultist most certainly. I certainly would have expected the Magos to have some really far out cybernetic abilities. High Level Adepts should most certainly have been able to become Administratum Masters of some type, like the High Librarian on Fenksworld. Or political appointees to a Governor. And how do you expect a Guardsman to have been his character for however long, then you want to explain how a Stormtrooper was chosen at birth and went through the Schola only to graduate right to becoming a Stormtrooper? What good is that?! Also, what happened to Inquisitorial Enforcers? There was certainly room for them alongside or instead of Judges.

My biggest gripe though is with your "Paragon Talents" and "Mastered Skills" - THERE ISN'T EVEN ANYTHING NEW ABOUT THEM!!! THEY ARE WORTHLESS!!!!!!! Why is a player who has thousands of XP going to spend 500-2000xp more to have THE EXACT SAME ABILITIES!! This is a major disappointment. Here is really where FFG could have made new abilities for the players from whole cloth that really pushed them into a different power level. Instead it is more like they tried to make Ascension into a poor man's Dark Heresy v2.0. Mastered Skills and Paragon Talents are like a tautology - "Okay if you have A,B,C and D talent they have the exact same effect as A,B,C, and D talent" That is the laziest way to put together a supplement I have ever seen in my life. There definitely should have been new effects for these no question. This is absolutely what hurts the Magos as the Talents are his bread and butter.

FFG all I can say is - I want my $50 back for this supplement. You basically stole that money from me.

Whoa ok i may not have mine and i may hate Ascension threads because i dont have mine but dude...why flame an entire supplement

you should be thankful to even have the **** think and hello you spent the 50 bucks on it anyways

from what ive unfortuantely read about you flaming the entire book and only liking 3 or 4 things in it i have to say this

get the hell over it

acolytes are not insanley powerful and amazing people

neither are inquisitors or throne agents

read Eisenhorn and Ravenor the character's of which are about as badass as your acolytes could get

NO ONE CAN BE COMMISSAR YARRICK BUT COMMISSAR FRICKIN ORK KILLING YARRICK

and expecting to get a book that gets your pc's to that level of power and influence is asking way too much

and so what if the careers are similar to the predecessors...hello thats what they were meant for 9 more ranks of your chosen career

and depending on the death cult's power or tactics a temple assasssain can be taken down honestly id put my money on the Morait before the Vindicare

and if you have such an apparent problem with FFG then dont post it on here and go play something else

ThenDoctor said:

Why?

Because they shouldn't be that level is his point. At the end of the day you are still a human, you can still be killed by a bullet and you are still troubled by things that trouble any other human. To ask to become more than human is to ask too much because you are not going to get it. That isn't what the game it about and its not what Ascension is about.

Kaihlik

However the work done on the Throne Agent Classes is absolutely your worst, no question. Having played through a complete campaign of Dark Heresy, I can tell you that my players would not have spent a year of game play to one day become...a Desperado??? I'm pretty sure they handled the "guy with two pistols" gig along the way. And how is a "Death Cultist" on par with a "Vindicaire Assassin"? It shouldn't even be close - death cultist is what an assassin is on her way to become a temple assassin. Thats the whole joy behind the Moritat. Your Magos is like having 9 more levels of being stuck as the same exact character - not even any real new additions. Sage and Stormtrooper are just pathetic synonyms for Adept and Guardsman. Its PATHETIC!

I really expected the throne agents to be more along the lines of Crime Lords and Imperial Guard Heroes (like Sly Marbo or Comissar Yarick). I would have rather had the Callidus Assassin temple instead of Death Cultist most certainly. I certainly would have expected the Magos to have some really far out cybernetic abilities. High Level Adepts should most certainly have been able to become Administratum Masters of some type, like the High Librarian on Fenksworld. Or political appointees to a Governor.

Now I don't have a copy of that book yet, but... your main gripe really is about some career names? You mean it would be better if there was no Sage class, but a High Librarian class? Alongside a Master Bureaucrat of the Administratum career? And to top it off, a Veteran Private Scholar career, perhaps?
And your Commissar Yarrick couldn't be built as a Guardsman going Commander and then taking Stormtrooper?

And how do you expect a Guardsman to have been his character for however long, then you want to explain how a Stormtrooper was chosen at birth and went through the Schola only to graduate right to becoming a Stormtrooper? What good is that?! Also, what happened to Inquisitorial Enforcers? There was certainly room for them alongside or instead of Judges.

Um.... there's quite a few instances of the 40k fluff where there's the fast and the slow way. There are schola cadets who are inducted into the inquisitorial Stormtroopers right away. They're the top 2.5% of those who graduate from the Stormtrooper course, the rest is shipped off to the Guard. The setting assumes you're playing one of the 97.5% capable, but not exceedingly apt guys who gets snatched up by an Inquisitor who later realizes his acolyte's potential to make the grade now that he has a little more experience under his belt, thus combining experience in a multitude of situations with combat prowess to replace extreme raw talent.
It's the same with Templum Assassins: Part of them get trained from birth while others get snatched up from the most promising and experienced hitmen of death cults and criminal organizations.

fimarach said:

I would have preferred Underboss. But is the name of the class really that big of a deal?

fimarach said:

So what would you have called the Melee-based assasin career? Your judging a class by it's name and you've got some pre-conceived notions of how things should be because of the tabletop game. Of course you're going to be a little upset.

fimarach said:

The Magos may be a bit of a stinker if you were expecting to be a super-Skitarri or whatever. But the idea is that the Magos is stepping out into the Calaxian stage, that involves using your Influence. Besides, there are a number of talents that let you increase the power of abilities you already have.

fimarach said:

Well, those are the ascended careers that Adepts and Guardsmen are most likely to take. What would you have called them?

fimarach said:

The problem with that is that having both Callidus and Vindicare basically forces you to become one of two things as you ascend. The Ascended careers are made to accommodate a number of character archetypes.

fimarach said:

I've read nothing so far that would lead me to believe that this isn't the case. Your high level adept can be whatever you want it to be. But with that kind of responsibility you can't expect to be traveling the sector with your merry cadre and still expect to keep that kind of position.

fimarach said:

I still think the problem is that you are taking these names too literally.

fimarach said:

I personally liked the fact that they made these talents and skills. They really save space on a character sheet, which is what they were intended to do. These were also well-known to be in the book since the very beginning. It's not like it's a surprise or anything.

fimarach said:

Read the book more and you'll find a pretty decent selection of new talents. Although I suspect you won't bother.

fimarach said:

Your disapointment could have been avoided by two minutes of research and not being such a stickler when it comes to class names.

fimarach said:

I applaud your willingness to give Ascension a negative review if you disliked the product (though I'd respectfully suggest in future moderating your tone as it makes your dissatisfaction sound less like ranting). Personally, I find I can learn more about a potential product purchase from the people who hated it than from the people who love it. Given the amount of excitement surrounding the product I'm not surprised to see strong opinions about it.

That said, I'm curious... what are your specific objections to the Desperado, Death Cultist, Sage and Stormstrooper careers. Since you single those out specifically, I'm wondering what within each of those careers did you find disappointing.

Personally, I reserve judgement for myself until I have a chance to read the book. Still, I appreciate your offering your opinions.

Got the receipt still? if so then just take it back to the FLGS you bought it at and stick with lower tier games. simples.

I'm not fussed about the new rules, what new fluff is there in the book?

Velvetears said:

Most LGS's don't take print books back. They're afraid people will copy what they want and then return the book. I can understand their thinking on that. Sorry to say, but books generally can't be returned. Kind of like video games. Once their opened they become used game store fodder.

@fimarach

I am sorry to hear that you are displeased with Ascension. However, personally having read the vast majority of the book so far, I get the impression that you seem to have stopped when you hit upon something you didn't like. There are a number of "talents of reputation and power" detailed in the book which allow for much of the political clout you were expecting for you players.

The sage build is what most of us were looking for with the adept when Dark Heresy first came out; a means of making a character similar to Eisenhorn's autosavant Amos.

The death cult assassin is a melee monster, no matter how you slice it. Especially if ascended from the Moritat.

The desperadoes are "criminal masterminds." But they are more than capable of transcending that single aspect of what they've become.

If you think a stormtrooper is merely just another guardsman, then you've probably not really considered the setting background.

Honestly, a name is merely a name. Just because FFG used a specific name for an ascended career does not entirely shoehorn them into that role only. I'm surprised, also, that you didn't have anything bad to say about the interrogator career, what with all their "wild card" skills and talents. I mean, isn't it bad form on FFG's part to allow for such a degree of customization within a career? Or is it exactly as it should be?

Personally, I've been enjoying the book and am rather pleased with it. My main complaint was the revision to the XP/Rank chart. I've no problem with the change to the end game totals pre-ascension, but I thought the change to a couple of the mid-ranks was unnecessary and likely errors. Oh, and my adept has only 3 choices for ascended careers, even though the Administratum has their Munitorum Questors and Inditors, who are both extremely militant in practice. Anyway, that's my bit. Hope the rest of you enjoy the book. Those that don't, sorry to hear it.

-=Brother Praetus=-

Yanma said:

I bothered, there were 17 of them not including th influence ones, which make me want to punch babies, but are one of the biggest way that vindicares are balanced, "Oh, you want all those fancy influence talents that give you special things, well, you can go straight to hell." At least I can dodge 8 times now. But, point is, I don't recall any other supplement having 17 new talents, as well as a wealth of new things to do.

While I can't comment on most of what has been said as i don't yet have the book, I can at least chime in on a possible reason why Desperadoes are called Desperadoes and not Criminal Mastermind or some such. It's a bit of a hat-tip to the original Inquisitor table top game where a class of character you could have in your Inquisitors retune was a Desperado.

I'd also agree with Lucious. It would be nice that, if you have found some faults with the book, you would actually discuss them as opposed to angrily ranting about them. State why you find something to be sub-par, what about it is sub-par, give an example of this sub-par thing, and allow us a bit of insight as to the problems as opposed to just your emotional reaction to the sub-par thing. When typing in anger, you usually end up saying absolutely nothing in the end other then the fact that you're a bit upset. That really doesn't help anyone.

ThenDoctor said:

Fimarach is entitled to his opinion. No need to read things in his post that aren't there or let hem play something else. I actually value critical reviews of rpg books.

fimarach said:

Finally someone who agrees that the Mastered Skillls and Paragon Talents are but a poor excuse to wipe out some more rules to include in a supplement. They don't even 'save up space' on your character sheet, that having been their 'justification' since one of the first designer diaries.

All in all I can more or less agree with the OP's point of view and am rather content to see a review this critical posted on the FFG boards for once instead of endless tirades of greatness galore.

Ascension for sure is the worst supplement FFG have published thus far, and to be honest it's a trend in form of a downward spiral. While I thoroughly enjoyed DotDG (a really great book) and even (to a lesser extend) CA, the RH was already a tad weaker than previous publications and Ascension is a new all time low. We won't even mention the first two books of the Harlock series, there have been better pre-written adventures back in the days of first edition D&D ...

I do hope FFG gets a grip on it again and publishes one or more DH books of better quality / content before the line falters away. Rogue Trader hasn't even seen a single sourcebook as of now, and Deathwatch's looming on the horizon already ... it all very much smells like milking the Wh40k cow until it suffers a fatal udder embolism.

I'm just happy I didn't pay full price for this ...

Malefic Sorcerer said:

I think that's unfair, Malefic. I don't see any evidence of a "downward spiral" at all. The Radical's Handbook was a genuinely excellent supplement: I thought it was stronger than either Creatures Anathema or DoTDG. I don't have Ascension yet, so I'm ill placed to comment on THAT book, but I would resist the assertion that there is any kind of downward trend. FFG use many of the same writers as were engaged by BI, and the Haarlock series is written by exactly the same guys as wrote the original DH. It's easy to make a bald statement along the lines of "things ain't what they used to be" but I really don't think it's got any legs as an argument.

Of course, you're only asserting a subjective opinion, and so am I, it's not like either of us can "prove" our respective points!

Well, I just got Ascension this past weekend. And I have to agree with Lightbringer. While it is not everything I could have hoped, it is a very nice start.

The main thing I hoped would be in there, but is not, is rules for creating and maintaining the vast information networks that Inquisitors (and some others) are known for. Now I know that some of that can be done with the Influence system, and a little more with the Contacts system (from IH), it just doesn't seem to support the kind of vast resources that I was expecting/hoping for.

The second thing that appears to be missing (although I could be wrong as I haven't had a chance to go through it page by page yet), is a bit more detailed fluff/lore/background (whichever you prefer) on the sector, its planets, and the factions/criminals/heretics/organisations that your characters may be working with or against. There is some, particularly on Malfi, thanks to the Red Wake adventure included in the book. But I had hoped for much more.

That does not, however, mean that I think it is a bad supplement. It does not meet all of my hopes and expectations, but it doesn't leave me wishing I had saved my money either. I only hope FFG continues to put out such quality supplements for the line. I want more! More I tell ya!

I also strongly disagree that RH is worse than other supplements. In my opinion it is just excellent, giving a balanced amount of wounderful fluff, game mechanics, items and additional powers, the all of which contribute to giving PCs more depth and interesting relations. For me IH and RH are the milestones in Dark Heresy and it's hard to imagine playing and GMing without them.

Although I cannot give my opinion about Ascension yet (the same reason as others), there are just few things I'm concerned about. First of all psychic powers, that seem just too easy to manifest and too powerful in comparison to other classes. But maybe that's me. Secondly, I'm worried about the influence sysem (its mechanics), but I'll just see when I get the book.

But remember one thing - this is a supplement to your own sessions, not a Rulebook you have to stick to like in tabletop. It is a big basis for your ideas, not the limitation of them. Don't like the names like Desperado? Change it however you like. What's the problem? You have problems with Death Cult? Make them Eversor aspirants and then come up with Eversor class using what you already have.

As far as adventure supplements are concerned, that is our choise to use them. Nobody forces us to do it. We can have either it, or having a supplement like DotDG or RH come up with our own campaigns, but I wonder how much time a month can we spend on writing a fully-fledged campaign. There are also many reviews of campaign books in the web, so it is no effort just to seek them out and read opinions and then decide.

Just my thoughts.

Reilly said:

Well, I can not honestly speak to your concern about the Ascended Psychic Powers, since I haven't seen them used in play yet. But I can tell you that the Influence system works remarkably like the Acquisition/Profit system in RT, only more so. Yes, you can requisition equipment with it, but you can also do quite a few other things with it. You can use it to call in favors from a powerful person/organization, or to otherwise acquire the services of someone or some group. You can use it to acquire information - though not on the scale I was hoping for (see my previous post). You can use it to convince a powerful person/organization to back you when your butt is in a sling because some rival just accused you of heresy. I imagine there are other things, though I'm still in the process of reading through it.

Hope that helps somewhat.

Thank you Sister Cat.

I can see it may work just fine. Of course my group is still far away from Ascension but I'm thinking about creating an Inquisitor that from time to time would help them out, until of course they ascend themselves. Acolytes may even link their contacts and organisations with those of an Inquisitor. But these would be very rare events. This can help a lot in creating more 'live' Inquisitor, not just a guy that give orders.

Thanks once again.

You're welcome. Glad I could be of some small help.

I have personally gotten so much good information/advice on these forums that I would feel downright guilty if I didn't help out where I can.

Sister Cat said:

To be honest, I'm not sure what you are looking for. Influence, Influence Talens, and Contacts are really pretty comprehensive.

Sister Cat said:

To be fair, that's not really what the book was supposed to be about.

Yanma said:

True, I may be under-estimating the full potential of Influence here. I don't claim to be the expert on these new and tasty rules. But to me, it just doesn't seem to cover the scope I expected for someone on the level of an Inquisitor. If I'm wrong, then I am that much happier.

Yanma said:

Again, you may be right. But that doesn't change the fact that I was hoping for much more juicy "fluff" to build scenarios around. Or, even to build character ideas around, as a player.

Like I said, I am not catastrophically disappointed in Acsension. In fact, I am glad I acquired it. But ... it is not everything that I had hoped. With that said, I do like it, and would recommend it. I just wanted more ... and still do. I don't claim that FFG's choices in this book were bad, or misinformed, or don't deserve some praise. I simply think that there could have been a little bit more, and wish there had been.

But ... I still think it's a great addition to the game. And, I hope for much more.

I'm upset to hear about the lack of setting/fluff detail, that was the only thing (along with new equipment and weapons) I was looking from the book.

Personally, myself and my players have been noticing and commenting upon a general decline in standards since the switch to FFG. I'm not saying everything about DH was perfect under BI (indeed I think the rules were pretty much broken), or that everything under FFG has been terrible (I quite liked the setting for Haarlock 1 and the adventure from Haarlock 2 for example), but FFG do seem to be worse at certain things, or be continuing bad trends established under BI.

There is a general maddening setting vagueness that does seem to have only got worse under FFG imo. The original rulebook and the IH and DotDG all gave a great skeletal play area that was ripe to be expanded upon and further detailed in future books, but that still does not seem to be happening in any kind of organised or detailed way. Indeed I believe that for most GMs a dedicated setting sourcebook for Calixis Sector would have been far more useful than the niche RH, which details the outer fringes of Inquisition politics, things that most Inquisitors (and pcs) would not dabble in.

I also believe FFG have a worse record when it comes to basic stuff such as typos and the structure of their books (though I do grant you BI's IH was perhaps the worst organised rpg sourcebook I've ever read - though it was nevertheless still a great and useful book).

RT, though possessing flashes of genius (such as the pretty good ship combat rules and the basically sound aquisition factor rules) continued the vagueness policy and gave us a woefully underdetailed play area. The Expanse shows flickers of promise, but as yet I don't actually feel it's a useable region, beyond the level any empty bit of Halo Space would be.

FFG also don't seem to even care about the setting details that have been established in previous books, contradicting themselves repeatedly (as in the case of Kobras Aquairre for example, or the apparent change in the nature of Sinophia Magna between CA and Haarlock 2). This is connected I feel to the vagueness policy. An apparent belief that setting detail isn't as important as rules, that new classes (no matter how pointless - Penal Legionaire for example - how's that not just a Guardsman?, or Mortiurge not just an Arbitrator?) are better than specific history or info on planets and regions.

I note this is not a trend limited to the 40K rpg output of FFG, having had a quick scan about the web the other day out of curiosity to see what new fluff FFG had done for the wfrp Known World, I found practically nothing ... just a ton of new rules, new dice, new counters, new cards etc etc. One review I found on rpg.net (which was very extensive) mentioned there was about a dozen brisk pages on the setting in the big new 3e wfrp box, and ... that's it. Yes, there's an 80 page module due out in coming months, but so far it seems the thing that always used to be the draw of wfrp is barely mentioned.

I can't state this firmly enough. I want more fluff. More history. More detail. Detail, detail, detail. I don't need endless new rules, new classes, and new skills.

Uh, anyway, looks like Ascension won't be for me.

Adam France said:

Um ... more or less ... exactly. But I, as opposed to Adam, still have hope for the game/supplement. I know, perhaps I am deluded.

But I prefer to be optimistic, and hope that future supplements will meet my expectations. I LOVE this setting, and just simply want MORE!

And I refuse to believe that FFG will ignore my pestering for more "fluff" ... unless, of course, GW is holding them back ... in which case, if it were true, I would sell everything I own and dedicate my life to eradicating their HERETICAL practices! Just a joke people ... I am NOT a terrorist!