13 minutes ago, Firebird TMK said:I also had a WHFB Tomb Kings army. Which was ruined by Age of Suck-More.
How big? Do you want to get rid of it? How much? Where are you located?
edit: probably should have put that in a PM. Oh well.
Edited by Forgottenlore1 hour ago, It’s One Of Ours said:In 7th ed, they were the “I-Win” army. They could be beaten, but it was a ridiculous uphill battle akin to 4 Sheathipede Fen Raus with a 4-die primary. They outfought, outlasted, outmaneuvered, or outmagicked anything, depending on which god(s) were bein chosen. And to top it off, they lost combat and took damage like undead, but to a much more forgivable degree. They were so awful that the (last?) Grand Tournament the year after their release had 7 demon armies in the top 10, and the highest placing non-demon army was Empire (3rd place).
When asked why they were made so powerful, the writer allegedly answered in person something along the lines of “it would have been a shame if they weren’t.”
Thank you for not naming He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named. That writer was the face of EVERYTHING that was wrong with GW. However, he was only a face. The REAL villains were the nameless suits at GW who gave the orders to issue such rubbish.
was he the same guy that wrote the greyknights that could shunt punch you from across the table?
the guy who made some grayknight named character so op that he wanders the warp punching out daemons and fighting ******* khorne to a standstill?
Edited by ficklegreendice4 minutes ago, Forgottenlore said:How big? Do you want to get rid of it? How much? Where are you located?
edit: probably should have put that in a PM. Oh well.
Thanks for the inquiry, but I have re-purposed my skellies and other units to use in AD&D. Or, if I can ever find a 9th Age game.
4 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:was he the same guy that wrote the greyknights that could shunt punch you from across the table?
the guy who made some grayknight named character so op that he wanders the warp punching out daemons and fighting ******* khorne to a standstill?
Oh yeah, that's the one.
3 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:was he the same guy that wrote the greyknights that could shunt punch you from across the table?
the guy who made some grayknight named character so op that he wanders the warp punching out daemons and fighting ******* khorne to a standstill?
Are you suggesting a GW writer used the fans as a door matt? Ward yourself well.
15 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:was he the same guy that wrote the greyknights that could shunt punch you from across the table?
the guy who made some grayknight named character so op that he wanders the warp punching out daemons and fighting ******* khorne to a standstill?
Can't siege the spiritual liege
I have none. What I've seen in the last few years both on this forum and in Facebook groups is that a lot of hardened wargamers fail to realise that for a large proportion of X-Wingers, this is our first (and probably last and only) game of this nature.
I've lost count of the amount of times I've seen the response to a legitimate criticism along the lines of "well GW did this so you should be happy it's not that bad".
That being said once I can find the time to dedicate to playing again I will definitely buy into 2E (assuming FFG have fixed it as well as it initially appears they have on paper). This actually couldn't have come at a better time for me as to buy back into the competitive scene has just been reduced by about 70%.
THAT being said I'm really hoping this is the only time it happens, and that FFG have learnt from their mistakes in 1E. Because I'm quite happy to knock up my own rules (am halfway done with this already for 1E) and just keep this as an at home game, not matter how much I enjoy tournaments.
Edited by Stevey8616 minutes ago, Forgottenlore said:Are you suggesting a GW writer used the fans as a door matt? Ward yourself well.
I'm suggesting that GW failed its Ward save. I'm not the first one either.
the more we "reminisce", the more I wonder how anyone could consider x-wing 2.0 to be anywhere near as bad as an edition change in warhammer
edit: was looking up the Dreadknight again trying to remember how exactly it'd punch you turn one. Believe it was a combination of bull teleportation + the infiltrate and scout rules, which were weird additions given the knight looked like the ripley suit grew five times its size and hate ****** a reliquary.
Came across this gem of a passage:
"these guys are professional skull****ers, and their ridiculously silly look will make your opponent cry tears of blood to have their tanks and precious snowflake characters being torn to shreds by such an ugly baby-carrying chicken. "
Edited by ficklegreendiceIt's pretty funny, but thinking back on it, in NONE of the systems I played the Edition change affected me that much financially like it now does with X-Wing 2.0.
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In Shadowrun RPG we started with Mk.I and had a pretty soft transition to Mk.II, which cost, probably, around 50 -90 $, tops. There weren't many Mk.I books with crunch around that time (Core, Streets Samurai; Virtual Reality, Grimoire and some adventures). Everything else came with Mk.II, which was my Golden Age, there, and will always be remembered as such. The death of Nigel Findley ended that era, and Mk.III put a lid on it. So there was no further edition transition for me here.
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Got into WH40k in 3.Ed starting with Necrons and then the Withhunters codex thereafter. Transitioned into 4.Ed. easily as Necrons were that robust and the Witchhunters Codex was practically written on the threshold towards 4.Edition - a 3.5 Edition Codex, so to speak. Then the 5th Edition came a bit too soon, making me realize I wouldn't go on with this arms race, thus selling off the Necrons and kept my Witchhunters as Display army, with them being completely mothballed once the Inquisitors were put into the Inquisition codex thus splitting my army literally in half.
The Edition change cost me 60$. No new Codices or models were needed. I had 3500 Points Necrons and some 3000 points Witchhunters, fully and well painted. Which makes it the system with the lowest transitions costs all right.
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Started to collect Circle Orboros of Hordes/Warmachine during Mk.I. I wasn't much into double or tripple units of the same kind - I had turned into a passionate painter back then already, and wasn't interested in painting tons of overladen "clone troopers" - so the transition to Mk.II didn't cost me any extras at all. The moment I realized that helpfull battle roles in my army were first filled by mercenaries/minions which - much later - could be replaced by better fitting new (and more expensive) Circle entries was the moment I prepared to jump ship. Then Mk.III came, which made me, again, end my contract as consumers slave with that company.
The Edition change cost me around 120 $: Core Book and Circle Faction Book and some Warroom decks. I own one respectable Circle faction + Trollblood/Cygnar/Retribution Demo-Armies.
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I then went into Infinity Mk.II. Great system, everything was playable, as the game was very much dependent on the proper use of terrain and the units didn't have that a big stat spread to be overtly disbalanced against each other in hindsight of their pointscosts and abilities. Mk.III came and two books were needed to get both my armies converted completely (over the course of half a years waiting).
Costs were about 145 $ (Mk.III Core Book, Human Spheres, Ayyar Blister). I have 2 factions running: Haqqislam (54 models) and Nomads (10 models)
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(I blew about 900 $ into the Kingdom Death Mk.1.5 kickstarter, recently the most boutique and expensive boardgame (due to it's costly Core Box) on the market. If I would have gotten into the Mk.I kickstarter the Upgrade Kit including Gamblers Chest for the advanced rules would have cost me only 150 $. And I'd deem it being worth it.)
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Now with X-Wing Mk.II and a solid collection of about 70 ships spread over 3 factions (Empire > Rebels > Scum) I'd be looking forward to pay more than 300 $ both in 2.0 Core Set and C-Kits (>340 $ most likely with the one for Epic) for a full conversion, with a lot of cardboard chaff being dragged in, too.
I collected mostly GCW-stuff (and in extension Lucasarts XWing/TieFighter/SotE-Ships), not the more exotic Legends vehicles, which I consider to be a pretty standard composition for an XWing TMG fan, who started around Wave 5.
So practically half of each C-Kit I'd have to buy (at least 5) would be paper ballast, thanks to the >coughing!< ... odd!... composition of the C-Kits.
As one can see, I have reason to find the effort and costs for this transition inappropriate in hindsight of the costs I am used to.
And I'm most likely not committing myself to that...!
Edited by John Tenzer4 hours ago, ficklegreendice said:Man , we could tell you stories for ages
Like how in fantasy your units were arranged in squares (like phalanxes) and they were given bonuses for how many ranks deep they were. The bonus capped at 4 so you wanted 5 ranks (last one was an ablative rank for inveitable loses)
But units could be routed and run down long before they lost all their men and there were also bonuses for flanking, so you couldn't just stuff a bunch of units into a mega blob
Basically meant you ran optimal 5 men by 5 men squares. So, 25 models a unit.
How many models in a box of spearmen? 16 ?
Nah man, max rank bonus was three, so units were never more than four deep. And back in 5th edition they only needed to be 4 models wide to get a rank bonus so that is why they were sold in boxes of sixteen.
Off the top of my head...Of the games I have played that made it to another edition, I have survived:
WH40k 2nd ed to 3rd ed to 4th ed to 5th ed to 6th ed (I tapped out before 7th ed but still keep an eye on 8th)
Advanced D&D to 3rd ed to 3.5 to 4th to 5th
Blood Bowl from 3rd to 4th to 5th to LRB to CRP to whatever it is called at the moment
L5R RPG from 1st to 2nd to 3rd to 4th
Dystopian Wars from 1st to 2nd to 2.5 to company folding to 3rd
Paranoia XP to 25th to Reboot
Werewolf the Apocalypse from 1st to 2nd to 2nd Revised to W20
Whatever the various incarnations and reformats that Battletech and Mechwarrior went through for about 20 years.
Monsterpocalypse is being resurrected at the end of this year. I am not sure if I will bother with it although the first edition is one of my favourite games of all time.
One of the nice things about the way they are doing 2.0 is they have built in tools they can use to keep the metas in relative balance. Things like central management of point costs and upgrade slots mean they can correct an error that slips through playtesting without needing to issue new components or create special components just to counter the OP ones.
This was a long overdue refit of the game and everything we have heard sounds really good.
Now 40K? Primaris Space Marines says it all....
I have played a LOT of various minis games since I started in HeroClix when it first launched 15+ years ago.
HeroClix has had its ups and downs as sets changed. Carded figures had their ups and downs. But for me it collapsed under the weight of its rules set. Haven't tried the new rules though.
For the players in here with Mechwarrior collections, checkout ebay and dig out some of those Uniques and LEs. They have held their value reasonably well. Don't know the last time I saw the game played, but as collectibles, you might be pleasantly surprised.
If you want to compare to another 2.0, check out Monsterpocalypse. PP will have their 2.0 at GenCon. But they have made the new figures a different size and are not compatible with any of the 1.0 pieces. Now, MP has been fallow for five or more years so the comparison is not entirely fair.
But as a casual X-wing player, I am reasonably happy with what I have heard about 2.0. I hope the A-, B-, and X-wings get a nice upgrade to make them a more viable option in organized play. I can pick up a conversion kit for my Rebel force and sell off the parts I don't need or just get a handful of upgrades for my Rebels related pieces. Guess I'll make up my mind after GenCon when I see exactly how it works.
FFG is doing a lot right. I just hope they can break up some of these card combos that are taking piloting and die rolls out of the game. If they can do that, 2.0 could be even more successful than 1.0.
I've been through a few edition changes, with results ranging from great to terrible. Most of them were terrible though, so that's one of the reasons I feel FFGs approach is great by comparison.
D&D minis 1st to 2nd edtion: terrible. Not only were the rules worse (IMO at least), but they also invalidated most 1st edition models (60 models out of hundreds were picked by vote to remain playable in 2nd edition, everything else would be gone).
Warhammer 40k 7th to 8th edition:terrible. I used to have a Tău army that I was collecting through the first part of 7th edition. Then the Eldar codex (the one with Scatter laser bikes and ranged D weapons) dropped and it just sucked the fun out of the game for me, so I stopped playing. When 8th edition dropped, I was interested, but I quickly realized that my army wasn't good for much. Most of what I had, that had been good when I bought it, was now pretty much terrible and if I wanted a competitive army, I'd need to start from scratch. Sold my Tau and never looked back.
Star Wars d20, RCR to Saga Edition: excellent. An all-around better game, and a no fuss edition change, without name calling and needless drama. To this day, Saga Edition remains IMO the best rules system WotC ever made.
D&D, 3.5 to 4th edition. Not only was the game moving in a direction I disliked, removing parts which I considered essential to the D&D experience, but the designers were either strongly implying or flat-out calling you out that if you liked these parts you were wrong and/or clueless.
So far, X-wing 2.0 has managed to avoid all the stuff that has bothered me for other edition changes so I remain optimistic for the final outcome.
Like many, I am a refugee from 40K and Fantasy. I played 40K from 2nd edition, and happily bought my wardollies as the editions changed... until it started getting REALLY stupid. Allies in 5th (?) edition meant picking an army with strengths and weaknesses wasn't a thing anymore, and as it moved into 6th the whole concept of a balanced 'all-comers' army died hard. Scissors-paper-Taudar... Not my idea of fun. I tried 8th for a few games, but any tactical cleverness has been wrung from the game. Heck, vehicles don't even have facings anymore! I have a ton of Marines, and everything I needed to build a Afrika Korp themed Orc army (conversions galore!), but my enthusiasm died...
Fantasy was a great game, I loved my 7th Ed Orcs and Goblins. 8th Ed wasn't brilliant, but still fun. Then it all died and they replaced it with, well, crap. My Orcstralian Army is now gathering dust, I didn't feel up to trying 9th Age or Kings of War.
Bolt Action is my ground level go-to now, the edition change was good. New rulebook, job done.
X Wing 2.0 has me slightly peeved at the extra cost, but picking up a large batch of rage-quit ships for $250, and selling HALF of them for $480 has mollified me somewhat 
Bolt Action is a great WW2 minis game system, I especially like the unit activation from a dice bag. Rules like 40K, where its all I go then you go, are so fudging archaic in comparison - it is not fun spending 30-60 mins watching your opponent move and shoot all their units. If only 40K had quality rules! And lol at the comment earlier in this thread where the facing on the vehicles no longer matters ...
13 hours ago, Wiredin said:I played Battletech and later Mechwarrior.
Battletech 3rd edition is when I started (1995?) and ditched out with maximum tech. Luckily Battletech was fairly affordable. I was a kid, so buying strictly off my allowance and got the rule books as presents. I just bought a few lances of mechs and that was that. But the power creep was so bad and the min-maxing was outrageous that I started playing in stock only groups, and then eventually lost interest because... girls.
When I was playing mechwarrior I was done school and just started dating my now wife. She actually liked the game and played with me. When the transition went from Dark Age to Age of Destruction it wasn't too bad. rules we're clarified and the all the old mechs were still available. But the new mechs had such outrageous power creep that I spent hundreds on blind packs to get the crap I wanted. I even resorted to e-bay to get some of the tournament exclusives so I could actually compete with my local group. Eventually it was too costly to keep up (blind packs...) and wizkids keeps giving tournament winners better and better equipment. So I dib's out hard. I have buckets of these stupid mechs now that are still in my possession. I also recently found my original rule books, so neat.
So even comparing Mechwarrior's transition to X-Wing is kind of interesting... the new core set was around $60 if I recall. So lets call that a wash. but unlike X-wing everything was blind pack, so you could spend $100+ to add 3 or 4 of the new mechs (packs were $10-15 a piece I think) and you draw nothing but junk. I don't think I pulled one Atlas the whole time I played (biggest baddest mech in the game). For $100 in X-wing 2.0 land, I don't have to worry about blind pulls. I get everything I originally had to be as viable as they are now...and I get a new core with all the fancy parts.
My experience is similar, thankfully my local meta had 6 players and we rotated through the prizes , there was very little jostling around for power creep (remember the SS Arrow IV? we opened 5 between our group and sold all 5 away on eBay) ... but I do remember when they changed the dials to add those little flags, and the Samurai mecha became a bit OP. Around that time people started quitting and prize support started becoming non existent because they were giving cards instead of figurines.
2 hours ago, Chivenger said:If you want to compare to another 2.0, check out Monsterpocalypse. PP will have their 2.0 at GenCon. But they have made the new figures a different size and are not compatible with any of the 1.0 pieces. Now, MP has been fallow for five or more years so the comparison is not entirely fair.
Its quite different as the figures cant be used, unlike Heroclix / MechClix and now X-Wing. I'm still stuck with 3 complete factions that are fun and balanced enough to play with (No Cthulhu or 8 defense power rangers to deal with) so I won't be going into the new Monpoc.
This is the first edition-change that's really presented me with some tough choices. Although I've collected through a number of WH40k editions, owing to the glacial pace at which I build/paint my army (it's still half finished after about 17 years...), I can't say I've been massively affected by any of them. Usually what happens is that a new edition comes out, I notice that they've messed up my favourite units...and the collection goes back in the wardrobe for a few years until something (usually friends) encourages me to drag them out again for a fresh outing.
I have various experience with edition switch:
Warhammer Fantasy Battles - I have survived two changes of edition and also the major switch from WHFB to Age of Sigmar. I welcomed the Age of Sigmar with downloadable rules for all armies and even written some praising articles about Games Workshop at the time. However, in the months after the change, the game became once again a moneygrabing and bloated crap. I sold out.
Warhammer 40.000 - I went through 4 editions. Some changes were good, some were bad. For example from 5th to 6th edition, the game brought in all the things I liked. However, in just two years they switched to 7th edition (rulebook is what, 80USD?) and then switched to 8th, which is basically the same as Age of SIgmar but a little worse IMHO. Now getting back to be insanely bloated again. By the way, the switch to 8th edition even had the "Index" books which were basically Conversion Kits. I sold out.
Warmachine/Hordes - I wasn't that invested in the game. However people I played with complained that the original, perfectly balanced game turned into money-grabbing tool. I sold out (can that phrase be used in english? Like "buy in" but the other way around?)
Infinity - it was a great game. A little bit too complex but fun. With the switch to new edition it eased part of the complexity but added more on the other side. Increased the number of models in general (lower point cost per model) and forced you to play certain miniatures. The game was after all too complex for me. I sold out.
Wow... a very crappy experience with edition changes it seems. Now, let's get back to X-Wing.
I am much more emotionally invested in X-Wing then in other games but I have been much more financially invested in all the games before. This makes me believe everything will be fine this time and we will have a good time. My collection is not that big. And in the worst case, I can use the models for other games.
I find it interesting that 8th edition 40k has so many negative comments. I would not have expected that. In my area, 40k is booming right now, being hailed as one of the best editions of the game in living memory.
I think there is something to be said about game aging as well, I do believe that over the years, with developments in game design, product design and business model design, many games have aged pretty badly. One place I can see that is in games like Battletech for example where the rules have never been streamlined all that much since it's 84 release. For a game to take 5-6+ hours just to resolve a battle, using character sheets and stuff like that, even the latest and greatest from Battletech feels like its a game from another time to me.
I think one thing X-Wing has going for it is that it's still very much a modernly designed game, in many ways, its X-Wing and FFG in general that is pushing miniature table top gaming design modernization. Concepts like card upgrades for example is becoming more and more common in games coming out today. Thought to length of play and creating games for organised play as part of its design, ditching concepts like 600 page rulebooks and focusing miniature games on being more approachable.. these are all things FFG has done for the model of how miniature games are made today. Many of the old school games like 40k really still have this rather archaic approach with very little streamlining done from the perspective of table top play that really gives games like X-Wing the edge.
For me though X-Wing was never really a particularly great game for competitive play mainly because there was far too much randomness in the game. I always felt it worked far better as a casual game.
Edition changes? Wow I’ve been through a few.
Shadowrun, 2nd in to 3rd. I own half of 2nd and all of third including the transition (Story) books in to 4th. Didn’t buy in to 4th as 3rd was good enough
Battletech, Cityfight in to Compendium to Master rules to Total war. While all technically edition changes the rules sets are close enough to be more like version changes. The only upset here was Total War changing the rounding of FerroFibrous armour from round up to round down, which made a lot of previous Clan tech books illegal as they had a random extra point of armour. I believe they changed it back to round up.
WFB. 5th-6th. I stopped playing once they binned Storm of Chaos for tournaments after previously making an announcement that specifically wouldn’t do that.
40k. 2nd through to 5th. 2nd in to 3rd was actually very good for the game 4th (or as I call it 3.5) was for me the best GW got for getting the game “right” when 5th dropped so quickly after 4th I dropped the game and moved to.....
Warmachine. 1st, 2nd and 3rd. 1st was broken as **** at 750pts (Epic casters) which was why my group stayed at 500 where it was less so, but it was still fun. 2nd as a rule set was and to this day is the tightest ruleset I have ever played, model balance was a little off at times and the Theme forces while well intentioned ultimately was what cause the edition to break. 3rd was when I dropped the game. However I will say this, the transition from 1st to 2nd was the best way I have ever seen a game company do it (MKII Field rest) however it did mean that the company had no sales for 3 months which is why they did it a different way for 3rd
I Also have Flames of War, started in 1st edition, moved and played 2nd edition, brought 3rd and 4th but never played them. On the transition of 1st to 2nd they game out a free mini rulebook on proof of ownership of a 1st edition rulebook, yet most players still went and brought the hardback anyway.
What a lot of people forget is that RPG’s and toy soldiers are non-consumerable products, there’s is no natural re-purchase like there is with food and drink so edition changes are sometimes needed for the bottom line and not just for rules bloat. BUT most companies do try and keep the existing players base involved as it is them that will get the new edition of the ground and selling (when done right).
Now in regards the X-wing 2.0. It is the most expensive initial out lay of and edition change that I have dealt with because of the base plates, dials etc. But it could of been done FAR worse.
10 hours ago, ficklegreendice said:the more we "reminisce", the more I wonder how anyone could consider x-wing 2.0 to be anywhere near as bad as an edition change in warhammer
I think it comes down to a couple of things. (For reference, I started playing 40k during 2nd edition and Warhammer during 4th so I've been through a lot of GW edition changes)
That last point is interesting to me. Looking back at a lot of the GW edition changes, the apparent cost of moving form one edition to the next was usually the cost of the rulebook plus the cost of a new Army Book/Codex. However, in a lot of cases the book for your army would come out later in the game's life cycle so the upfront cost was just the rulebook. There were also numerous "hidden" costs since the new edition would often require changes to your army that needed you to buy more models for any number of reasons. The total cost of an edition change was often quite high but spread over 1-3 years in a lot of cases. X-Wing 2.0 has a smaller upgrade cost than any of the GW edition changes I've been through, taking all the factors of those games into account, but it's all paid for up front in the form of the conversion kits and new core set.