Ok, so after getting to the silver level of a SoB campaign, we decided to start over as it has come to a realization, that if we can't beat the Siren, it is pretty much game over. With all the expansions, but not the promo heroes (except Nara who cames with SoB) who would be the best 4 heroes to take to both do well in the dungeons and against the Siren. We chose most heroes with good mobility and high fatigue. It was hard to justify heroes with 3 fatigue as these came out more superior

We are currently looking at the following:

Karnon - heavy melee and easier to sail the ship

Silhouette - heavy range

Runemaster Thorn - ability to teleport and get closest to the siren.

and trying to decide between Battlemage Jaes (ability to man magic cannons such as the dragonhawk) and Zyla. (fly and ghost is good against the sharks, but not skeletons)

Who do you think would be better and why or if you agree on the selection. Input welcomed.

uhchewie said:

Why?

There is nothing the OL can do to gain CT faster than the heroes let him. It is entirely possible to get to the mainland before the OL can get the siren out at all. Once there you can do dungeons fast enough and plentiful enough to run through large sections of the campaign in very little time. There is only so much one Lt can do...

Sure, it's probable you will want to fight the Siren at some stage, but its not an autolose, and it doesn't have to be really early.

In fact, early on the Siren is very vulnerable, especially if you get the right mix of heroes and skills. The OL may not be willing to really risk the SIren against a decent party - if he loses his only Lt he is really screwed!

uhchewie said:

Thorn is potentially devastating to the Siren. If he can get a skill like Saj's mark or Koll's Mark then he is really dangerous. Even more so if he gets a nasty weapon like Staff of the Grave early on - or even a blast/breath weapon if the skeletons bunch to protect the siren.
Battle, Fatigue + Fatigue Pot = teleport with 2 fatigue left for bonus dice. 2 Attacks with Saj's Mark or 3 with Koll's mark, at more or less point blank range. Chuck in a feat for extra damage etc... Add another attack (and another feat) from a Captain's Guard order...

The other heroes are much less important.

Karnon is a bad deal IMO because apart from his general uselessness (5 dice are worse than 4 and he is 16/1 for 4CT with a generally weak ability and more likely to get a weak skill) and you actually want that extra skill choice more than the extra dice. Skills will be more critical than dice for the heroes in this particular battle. Your melee hero wants to get Captain or Shark Tattoo (and the highest combination of speed and armour he can manage to survive the skeletons and get to the Siren.
Tahlia is your best bet here - 3 dice, 2 armour (+ chainmail, shields, maybe RoP) extra move when guarding (effectively run and attack), 3 skills to get Shark Tattoo or Captain.
Jaes with a hammer, chainmail, Ghost armour, RoP, shield etc is also useful but can only get 2 skill cards trying to get either of those skills.

Ronan is your best choice as shooter/runner - largely because he can give Pico to either Thorn or someone who has Shark Tattoo.

I would choose Tahlia, Jaes, Ronan and Thorn.
You get 6 skill cards from Tahlia and Jaes to try for Shark Tattoo/captain and 1-2 from Ronan as well to try for Captain. You get Thorn doing his teleport thing and going after the Siren herself, hopefully with some attack or damage boosting skill. You also have Pico available to boost one of your 'killers'.
You have a Tank, a Mage, a shooter/runner and a mage/runner/tank, so it is also a good all round party.

As OL I'd be vetoing a free hero selection like this!

Well in our game, we are rotating the overlord responsibilites and are trying this for fun. We figure that if the best heroes can't beat the siren, then there is no reason to play the SoB campaign with heroes that don't stand a chance. We will end up choosing skills as normal, just trying this out.

Corbon,

I, for one, am very interested to hear you say this. I was on the verge of declaring Sea of Blood the most broken Descent expansion yet, largely due to the invincibility of the Overlord's lieutenants, especially the Siren (although Darkwind, being available for the Master of the Hunt at Copper, makes things even MORE broken). If the Heroes cannot gain the power to defeat the Siren relatively quickly, then in my opinion, all is lost. A plot like Leviathan will win the game for the Overlord before the campaign even leaves Copper level (especially since he will be smart, pick the Master of the Hunt and get Darkwind too to double his lieutenant output). Shadow Queen with Siege Engines as a starter is perhaps just as bad, maybe even worse since you can just "buy" the 5th razed city (Dallak) for the win as soon as the campaign hits Silver.

As far as I can see, Runemaster Thorn is just about the ONLY tool in the Hero arsenal that even gives a shot at defeating the Siren at Copper level. And he is just one character from one expansion that not even everybody will own - and even he probably fails if there are several sharks on the battle ground. And, as you say, he still needs the right skills and weapons. Shark Tattoo is the next best, but the Siren can still start an AWFULLY long way from the Heroes, and will be surrounded by sharks by the time the swimming Hero reaches her.

Oh by the way, I might be mis-remembering, but I thought Captain let the other Heroes place any order EXCEPT a Guard order...?

So here, then, is the challenge: is there any reliable way for Copper-level Heroes to stand a chance at defeating the Siren WITHOUT Runemaster Thorn (or more generally, without any one specific Hero - I suppose Zyla, being so ridiculously broken, both flies over the water and is immune to the sharks, also probably does the trick - but as I said, she's ridiculously broken so I usually house-rule her)? I claim that there is not.

I am inclined to disagree with The_Immortal. Yes I believe the Siren is extremely tough, but I believe she is beatable. Frankly I think it all comes down to a VERY well upgraded ship, Reaper Figurhead, Elven Sails, 4 or more cannons, Forecastle, etc. The more the better. If the heroes want to beat her in late copper, I don't think they'll be able to upgrade much other than their ship and the once per campaign level fatiguewound upgrades.

Kartigan said:

A smart Overlord can easily negate all the cannons, and slowly whittle you away with skeletons. Captain Bones' Suicide Bomber Skeletons make the job even easier. The heroes need to focus on upgrading themselves to their maximum ability before engaging Siren.

The_Immortal said:

1. Once the heroes get to the mainland they can run through copper level in about 4-5 more weeks if they choose (assuming they kept CT to a minimal level before getting there), including time for one training (add 2-3 more weeks if they want it to be a secret master training). There is only so much the Siren can do early on, and even a second Lt for some Avatars will only have a few weeks of action.

2. You are right about no guards from Captain. My hero player is going to be most distraught!

3. There shouldn't be a reliable way. There should be a reasonable way. The Siren can't afford to take risks. She is relatively weak and the OL has fewer Lts than in RtL so must take better care of them.

Shark Tattoo is probably the most reliable non-hero-specific route. Ghost armour, high fatigue and power pots will help to keep a swimming hero alive through the sharks - or, more expensively, a Curse doll can get rid of up to 3 bleed tokens.
A hammer, or Mace of Aver, can Knockback the Siren to a location where other heroes can get at her - possibly twice if you get it right.
There are two copies of 'Carried by Air' in the wizardry feat deck - fly and +2 Mv for a turn.
Runner, for a hero to Run and then attack (preferably with Knockback and the Carried by Air Feat, or combined with Koll's or Saj's Marks for dangerous attack capabilities).
Precision may prevent the Siren hiding from ranged attacks.

IMO there are enough options available to make things very iffy for the Siren, even early on. Not reliably iffy, but reasonably iffy. In my solo campaign the hero party drew Thorn and he got Koll's Mark. As OL I didn't even risk bringing out the Siren until the heroes had bypassed her location (on the way to the mainland) and she could run away from them towards the floating city (to get rid of Shark Tattoo!)

Interestingly in my group-hero campaign (choosing heroes and skills via email as we speak, starting gameplay on saturday), the player who drew Thorn is a dwarf nut and also drew my custom dwarf seer Karak Runeseer (FFG make your own hero pdf, 12/4/2/3 1/0/2, 1/1/1, 4CT, Seer 2) so although I warned in the email sent out that due to the water encounters Thorn was an almost 'must take' (and I would take Glyr from my selection and swap with him if he wanted), he still wants Karak.
So we will be fighting without Thorn - with one guy still to choose, and my choice depending on him, our party looks like Karak+Astarra+ either (Ispher+Laughlin) or (Glyr+Royal Archer (custom, 12/5/1/4 1/2/0 1/2/0 3CT Soldier 2)).
Laughlin was the only 3 dice melee hero drawn and there were no 3 dice rangers drawn (the Royal Archer is easily the best archer in the party but was in the same draw as Laughlin). I think we will get smashed, but we will see...

1. I see two problems with this point. First: getting to the mainland (assuming a start in Gafford) is not necessarily easy. The ship encounters can be totally brutal with a starting party and only one Coldsteel cannon and, in my experience, could easily result in a TPK, or at the very least, of the Overlord picking off a couple of characters so that he can bring out the Siren nearly right away. Second: I don't see how 4-5 dungeons advance the game to Silver level. Assuming 1 glyph and 1 boss per floor, I count 18 conquest per dungeon, maybe plus 1 or 2 if you get chests that don't give out treasure. So that's only ~100 conquest from 5 dungeons. Of course, one *might* assume that the Overlord is making a similar amount of conquest by killing the Heroes in the dungeons, but my question here is: WHY? If it is true that copper-level Heroes cannot defeat the Overlord's lieutenants, what incentive does he have to collect conquest? He only needs enough to bring out the Siren and Darkwind and after that, he doesn't need conquest, he just needs TIME. So he simply refuses to kill the Heroes at all. In this case, the Heroes would have to resort to the cheesy tactic of just killing each other to flood the OL with conquest, which I'm pretty sure everyone agrees is a pretty unsatisfying solution (and many people seem to have the response that it's "unsportsmanlike" and won't play with anyone who does it - I of course believe it should be either legal or illegal and usually opt for saying that OL has the option to refuse any Conquest except his start of turn pension).

3. I completely agree that Shark Tattoo is the best general-purpose tool available to the Heroes. In fact, I'd argue that absent Thorn or Zyla, it is a pure necessity. The other solutions mentioned (feats, knockback weapons) are all expansion elements, so not all players will have them. Even with them, I fail to see how a single knockback of 3 spaces will put the Siren anywhere near to within range of the Heroes still aboard the ship. However, except in rare circumstances, I contend that even a combo like Shark Tattoo + Runner on the same Hero will not be enough. As of turn 2 onwards, the Siren will ALWAYS be up against the edge of the board, surrounded by sharks and maybe a skeleton or 2 on all sides. Therefore, the 1 attack per turn granted by Runner won't even be enough to attack the Siren, since best case it just kills a shark, which will respawn on the next turn. So the only hope is an area-of-effect weapon. Cone of Fire is probably the best (although again, this is an expansion element), but even so, it requires some extra oomph to even hurt the Siren, which means it pretty much has to be in the hands of a magic user, and most magic-users won't last long against the sharks.

BUT - even when all these stars align to give the Heroes a chance, it's still totally contingent on the linchpin of Shark Tattoo. As far as I see it, nothing else comes close as an effective substitute. It seems to that having their only tiny chance of winning dependent on a single skill that is relatively difficult for the Heroes to get is not a good design for the game.

And of course, we haven't even touched Soriss or Darkwind, neither of whom I think are beatable even with Shark Tattoo, Runemaster Thorn, Zyla or any combination of the above.

The_Immortal said:

I can't comment too much generally as it is still all theory and not experience for me. And I don't think that one or two run-throughs where people find it hard or 'virtually impossible' are enough either. Perhaps (not necessarily, but perhaps) adaptions still need to be made.

But I do have 2 comments - 1 of a very limited starting solo experience and 1 about your point above.

1. I think it is only reasonable suggest that the OL is making a similar amount of CT in dungeons. If the OL is using a cheesy tactic of not killing the heroes then it is no different from the heroes using a cheesy tactic of killing themselves. More subtle perhaps, but no different in truth. So sorry, I don't think it is acceptable to start your argument from one side (the OL) using cheesy tactics and the other side not be allowed to!
The RAW allow the heroes to control the campaign progression to a great extent. Taking that away from them shouldn't be possible for the OL or you are making a huge fundamental change to the way the game is played.

Anyway, here is my very limited experience.
1. Heroes go to dungeon near Garrett and do 2 levels IIRC. They come out something like 21-13 behind (it is a fairly lightweight party and drew a nasty first level).
2. The OL purchased A New Law which prevents the heroes from being able to upgrade with cannons easily or buy decent weapons easily. The heroes purchased the Triton figurehead but could not also afford a cannon.
3. The heroes sailed south. The OL did not immediately purchase the Siren due to Thorn with Koll's Mark and then Staff of Punishment purchased at double cost at the next city.
4. The heroes sailed all the way to Garnott. Due to the Triton figurehead they only had 2 rolls on single dice needing a blank for an encounter over 6(?) sea trails. No encounters. As soon as the heroes were past thesiren's starting location the OL purchased her and ran northwards to start seiging teh floating city.

As OL (its a solo campaign) I looked at what the heroes (Thorn really) could possibly do to the Siren in one turn and decided it wasn't worth the risk.
Different Avatar, different plot, different heroes will have different difficulties. As a hero I am really hating the New Law upgrade. REALLY HATING.
But I'm not prepared to write the game off just yet, despite what you say - and I think that you are being hasty, even if you are correct.

Corbon said:

+1

I think people are being a little too hasty to write Sea of Blood off, particularly in the area of LT encounters. I believe that they are very difficult, but they are winnable, perhaps as I gain further expereience with the expansion (still only part way through my first campaign) I will find out otherwise, but people seem to want to rush to conclusions and whip up house rules after only 1 or 2 battles. Problem is, with a 40+ hour game, you really don't want to have to test it 13 times to see if it's really "balanced" so I understand where people are coming from who want to change things or not invest massive amounts of time into the game only to realize it is un-playable.

I certainly agree that people in general are hasty to write off perceived balance problems, especially in games as long as the Advanced Campaign. This was certainly true of RtL, when the forums were flooded with posts of how 'hard' it was for the Heroes, when in actual fact the Heroes have the advantage in the early game (except possibly against the Demon Prince Avatar).

However, with all due modesty (which unfortunately can't come off as anything but arrogant in a written, online environment, but I guess I'll have to be okay with that), I am not most people. I'm the guy who spends hours solo-playtesting various scenarios and searching for any possible solution to potential problems. I've poured over all the skills, all the Heroes, all the ship upgrades, and while I fully admit I may not be infallible, I'm not one to come to a conclusion unless I'm pretty sure.

Now to address a few points specifically:

1) Overlord refusing to kill the Heroes: I completely agree that depriving the Heroes of the ability to give the OL conquest can change the game, and is possibly a necessary mechanism given the game's current state. My point is that if we can agree that it IS a necessary mechanism, then it is completely unarguable that the game is *completely broken* as it stands. The argument is simple. If the Heroes are allowed to kill each other and the OL cannot refuse the Conquest, then obviously the Heroes can always GIVE the OL as much Conquest as they want. This works fine if they OL's goal is to maximize his conquest; the Heroes then have no incentive to do this. But if the state of the game is such that the OL believes it is better for him to MINIMIZE his conquest, then all of a sudden, his actions in dungeons become completely irrelevant. He cannot achieve this goal, because the Heroes can give him as much conquest as they want. So all of a sudden, there is no point in playing the dungeons whatsoever! You might as well draw the 3 levels, give the Heroes all the loot, and ask them how much CT they give the Overlord. Given that Descent is at its core a highly tactical dungeon combat game, this situation sounds to me like a completely broken game.

Of course, the deeper problem here is that overloading total Conquest as both "resources" for each side AND the game clock has ALWAYS been problematic. This was true in RtL too, it just seemed to come up infrequently enough that it could be relatively safely ignored. In SoB, since the Overlord's victory really IS on a clock as soon as he gets out even 2 lieutenants, this is a huge problem.

2) Your solo play example: I've got Runemaster Thorn in my current game too, and while I agree he poses a significant threat to the Siren, the more I study the issue, the more I think it's a huge anomaly. I think Thorn might be to SoB what (unmodded) Nanok was to RtL: completely broken as a Hero. On maps composed of the dungeon tiles, you were usually lucky to shave 2 MP off his move by cleverly using his teleport ability in most cases. He simply wasn't designed for giant open maps that are 40 spaces across. No other Hero with any combination of SoB skills gets you anything close to what Thorn can do.

As a final constructive point, I'll add my argument from another thread: namely, that if you just run some quick scenarios on the SoB overland map, you will find that even if you assume the Heroes can trivially defeat (as in make flee, not kill of course) ANY lieutenant the bump into without ANY difficulty, the game is still monstrously hard for them. Because the Lieutenants only retreat 1 space away, making them flee buys the Heroes so little time. With only 2 lieutenants on the board (let alone 3 or 4), the Overlord can easily set up cycles such that he is GUARANTEED siege rolls on cities. For a plot like the Shadow Queen, this really means that his victory is indeed 'on the clock,' which comes back to the earlier point of the Overlord having no incentive to increase his conquest total. He simply wants to slow down the game for his inevitable win. Given that the Heroes will very quickly run out of accessible dungeons in the areas around where the lieutenants are operating, this doesn't seem hard for him to do.

Of course, I could be defeating my own point here, in that perhaps "invincible" lieutenants aren't even the real problem. But the general idea was supposed to be that if the game is hard even with trivial lieutenants, then it is certainly impossible with lieutenants for which the stars need to align just so for the Heroes to have even a hope of beating them.