What is Ardus' practical role in the Waiqar army?

Is he a tar pit? A sledgehammer? A sniper? A flanker? A cool looking guy who really doesn't do much and lives to tell about it, but has an interesting army building ability? He is priced at a whopping 37 points, and from what I can read on this forum, hear on the podcasts and have experienced myself, he is not chosen due to his fighting skills. Let's assume that the game designers came to the same conclusion, and that parts of his price is for his Host of Crows ability.

So lets talk Host of Crows, but first I will clarify that I define "overpowered" as a build that is higher on the game's power-to-cost curve than it's average, and "underpowered" as a build that is lower.

Let's assume that all units, at each size configuration and with the available selection of upgrades, are somewhat evenly distributed (balanced) over the power-to-cost curve around the average of the game. Let's also assume that the reason that not all upgrades are available at each unit size is due to this balancing (though some might be just not to make the game confusing, like one infantry tray with a siege slot). That means that the Host of Crows gives the opportunity to select an upgrade that is "overpowered" for the smaller unit, if such a choice is availabe. It could also mean that the unit gets a wider range of possible upgrades, but they are all balanced or even "underpowered".

To exemplify: Let's say that there is a "nuke" upgrade that kills both the unit that's carrying it and the unit that it colides with. It would be much more efficient, i.e. powerful, if it could be equipped to a cheaper unit than an expensive unit, given that they could both do the delivery.

I would argue that it is only when Host of Crows enables a build that is "overpowered" that it rectifies a higher cost for Ardus than just the fair cost for his fighting skills. Pricing fluff does not seem to be in the spirit of a competetive game (though I'm certain there are such examples).

So my question is: Which builds, allowed by Host of Crows, makes Host of Crows valuable (not fluffy)?

The bonus question is of course, what do you think is a fair price for Ardus without Host of Crows, i.e. as a warrior?

Edit: Changed the image due to weird sizing

Dual dispatch runners in 2x1 death knights requires host of crows to feed a 4x3 multiple attacks. This is one place he really shines.

Another one is not based on his list ability but on his surge stealing. Bring the right units and you can have Ardus throwing 3 surge abilities in one turn.

I think without host of crows he would be more around 31-33.

My initial reaction is Reanimate Archers + Combat Ingenuity + Wind Rune. They have ability to shoot around the battlefield, continually dining blight...if they roll well enough. There is just something about this configuration that just isn't optimized, so I'll have to keep thinking.

I did run him in this army:

At the time, I didn't have enough Reanimates to field Ankaur Maro in a 6-tray unit and have a 9-tray unit with trays to spare. Ardus allowed me to put more points in my minions, while also providing a weapon against figures with high defense. As Jukey mentioned, Ardus borrowing the surge ability of the Reanimate Archers and Front Line Carrion Lancer was really helpful. It allowed him to disable units with blight, or desk blight and kill them with surges->mortal strikes. But he want so good in some matches. Ultimately I gave up on him because you have to deploy perfectly to get the necessary ranges. I think increasing the range at which Ardus could borrow surge abilities would be quite helpful.

The Host of Crows ability leaves you with a huge constraint in taking Ardus, and relying on his ability means that your units likely have lower threat and fewer rerolls. Unless you are saving way more on unit base costs compared to Ardus' cost, he just doesn't seem worth it.

Look at Jukey's dispatch runners above. If the Death Knights were the only units taking advantage of Host of Crows, then Ardus actually isn't saving points. To make those two Death Knights be 2x2 and carry Duspatch Runner on their own would be 36 more points. Ardus is 37. What does that extra point get you? It does give you an extra unit to activate, and depending on the rest of the list, Ardus might put in work. However, you sacrifice health and rerolls on the Death Knights. But maybe this list is a perfect example of what Ardus does well. You actually don't want those Death Knights engaged too soon because you want them feeding attacks to the 4x3 of Reanimates, so rerolls don't matter aa much. Perhaps you don't want to sink points into those support units. But if you're not getting any good use out of Ardus, I have trouble seeing why you would take him instead of two 2x2 units of Death Knights.

Personally, I feel Host of Crows was less about the competitive scene, and more a cruch for beginners who have fewer models. Waiqar units cost less than Daqan, so getting a 200-point army is more expensive, but Ardus lets you pad your list with upgrades you normally couldn't take.

@Parakitor and @Budgernaut , could I ask you what your estimation of the fair cost of Ardus without HoC is?

To me he seems to pretty much match a pair of siege units (f.e. Lancers) in terms of HP/armor, abilities, damage output etc. So I would feel good about running him at 27-30p I think.

I'm notoriously bad at estimating, and this shortcoming applies to assigning point costs, too, but I'll try. I think Ardus' closest counterpart hero is Lord Hawthorne, though Kari Wraithstalker is pretty close, too. What both of them lack is an initiative 3 attack with matching hit modifier. Lord Hawthorne can do it at the relatively late initiative 6, and Kari has no hit modifier. Looking at the points spread (32, 34, 37), I'm guessing that's a large reason why Ardus is more expensive. Also, his potential to deal blight with a surge, immediately followed by mortal strikes to tear through heroes and siege units alike. Honestly, when I look at all the good he can do, I'm hesitant to assign him anything lower than 35 points.

So the question is, what is he lacking? Really, it's just the later initiatives on his march actions. Everything else is on par with the others. I don't think Host of Crows is good enough to push him up to 37 points, but it's better than Kari's ability, in my opinion. His surge ability is just bonkers, though. I have a feeling that if someone really dedicates time to practicing with his ranges, they can quickly earn his points back. Which is sad, because it doesn't take that much effort to get your points worth for Kari's sniping, or Ravos' frenzied charges.

All I know is that I've struggled to make him work consistently. I'm considering bringing him back out and putting him though the ringer to see if there is untapped potential, but I suspect the community at large has basically already done that.

I struggle to make Waiqar work at all... I come close, with good strategies, and I still fall short. I think I need to change tacks overall. It's been what I think has been fun to run for the most part. Ardus needs to have a presence on the fields of battle.

I think I'll need to throw together nearly random lists to see what might stick. Ardus is pretty neat in a 12 tray block of reanimates, but Host of Crows and stand-alone Ardus need to do something too.

2 hours ago, Aetheriac said:

I struggle to make Waiqar work at all... I come close, with good strategies, and I still fall short.

I think this is the overall problem. Reanimates just don't match up to other infantry. I think reanimating was supposed to make up the difference, but it's not enough, even with the lingering dead upgrade.

@Xelto I think threat is another issue. You can build up to 4 threat without upgrades, but Berserkers can reach that threat at 57 points with upgrades while it costs 64 for the Reanimates.

@Maktorius I don't know, but 34 seems vomparable to others.

5 hours ago, Parakitor said:

I'm notoriously bad at estimating, and this shortcoming applies to assigning point costs, too, but I'll try. I think Ardus' closest counterpart hero is Lord Hawthorne, though Kari Wraithstalker is pretty close, too. What both of them lack is an initiative 3 attack with matching hit modifier. Lord Hawthorne can do it at the relatively late initiative 6, and Kari has no hit modifier. Looking at the points spread (32, 34, 37), I'm guessing that's a large reason why Ardus is more expensive. Also, his potential to deal blight with a surge, immediately followed by mortal strikes to tear through heroes and siege units alike. Honestly, when I look at all the good he can do, I'm hesitant to assign him anything lower than 35 points.

I think most of his value is sunk into his damage potential and surge synergies. But he still feels overpriced because the game designers (I believe) undervalued mobility. Ardus is amazing when you can get him into combat in a favorable situation, like if he gets to charge first, or is being backed by alot of good surge abilities. The problem is that Waiqar dials, and in particular his dial, does not allow him to do this. He is unlikely to outcharge anything that isn't spearmen because of low initiative moves. He also is not all that maneuverable to get a flank. To make matters worse, most of the surge abilities you want to leach are on slow and fragile units (Maro and RAs) that you don't necessarily want that close to a fight.

I think the reason that Uthuk and Latari do feel strong for their cost is because of their mobility. I think the designers just missed on it's value. Does anyone on this forum believe that Fire Runes should cost more than Wind Runes? Or that Fear Incarnate is as good as Insatiable Hunger? Mobility is too important..

With this in mind, I think Ardus should come close to Kari's cost. Even at that cost he's weaker than her, unless he can build some surge synergies.

What Ardus really wants is a white reform modifier.

16 hours ago, Xelto said:

I think this is the overall problem. Reanimates just don't match up to other infantry. I think reanimating was supposed to make up the difference, but it's not enough, even with the lingering dead upgrade.

Even with Lingering Dead AND Necromancer, they don't really.

I've run them intending to maximize regeneration many times and it has worked only once that I can remember, and that was a corner case where the opponent rolled poorly and green runes popped basically every turn.

For the faction with the most fundamental reliance on runes to make their frontline infantry work, and the faction with the fluffiest reason to control/manipulate the runes, Waiqar is notably the only faction so far that has no rune manipulation upgrade, and it makes me sad.



As for Ardus and Host of Crows, I personally enjoy trying out the various combinations HoC makes available.

-3x2 Reanimates with Deathcaller, Support CL, Simo Orders is fun.
-3x2 Reanimates with Aggressive Drummer and Moment of Inspiration to a flank can clear out a cavalry unit in one good swing
-2x2 Reanimate Archers w/ CI, Wind Rune and Raven Standard Bearer is a party on wheels.
-2x1 Reanimate Archers w/ CI and Tempered Steel can kick in some clinch damage a few times if they advance into firing position with Shift+Rally

-2x1 Carrion Lancers w/ CI and MCW is very swingy, but dangerous to infantry flanks just like the bigger, more expensive versions.

Ardus himself is potentially very fragile. I've gotten him killed a lot. Probably more often than not. He excels at flanking otherwise engaged enemies and tearing them to bits, taking advantage of his low initiative attack to remove a tray from the back rank, refuse to re-engage, then charge again the next turn after avoiding return attacks.

Lining him up to maximize his possible surges and taking Ardus' Fury has paid off a number of times, too, letting him blight a unit (borrowed from Archers) and then follow up with several Mortal Strikes courtesy of a nearby Carrion Lancer.

I've practiced with him a fair amount, and I still struggle to use him to his full effect most games, but when he works he works. I think I'm a lot more relaxed when I'm launching Ravos at the enemy headlong, but I feel better when Ardus is the only survivor of a bloody melee.

If I were valuing Ardus WITHOUT HoC, I think I'd be willing to pay 30 pts for him, though I might beg for a training upgrade slot, or just another unique or two to specialize him.

1 hour ago, Tvayumat said:

As for Ardus and Host of Crows, I personally enjoy trying out the various combinations HoC makes available.

-3x2 Reanimates with Deathcaller, Support CL, Simo Orders is fun.
-3x2 Reanimates with Aggressive Drummer and Moment of Inspiration to a flank can clear out a cavalry unit in one good swing
-2x2 Reanimate Archers w/ CI, Wind Rune and Raven Standard Bearer is a party on wheels.
-2x1 Reanimate Archers w/ CI and Tempered Steel can kick in some clinch damage a few times if they advance into firing position with Shift+Rally

-2x1 Carrion Lancers w/ CI and MCW is very swingy, but dangerous to infantry flanks just like the bigger, more expensive versions.

Do you think think that either of these pays for HoC due to increased power-to-cost level, or are they primarily "fluff" (i.e. on par or lower than the average power-to-cost in the game)?

6 hours ago, Maktorius said:

Do you think think that either of these pays for HoC due to increased power-to-cost level, or are they primarily "fluff" (i.e. on par or lower than the average power-to-cost in the game)?

I think it's difficult to accurately judge how valuable these combinations are in any given game outside of the context of that game. It depends on how well they are played, and some are better against certain factions and fall flat against others. (This fact by itself may mean it's not worth much. Unpredictability in a wargame often isn't)

It's difficult to quantify for me because it's all in the realm of Waiqar, and I don't think Waiqar has ANY combos or strategies as brainlessly simple as some Daqan and Uthuk "front toward enemy" choices.

I also think there is massive value in Ardus' forward compatibility. That is to say, as long as new units with surge abilities and upgrade slots are being released, Ardus' HoC combinations will only increase.

Keeping a core set hero relevant over the long term is a darn neat trick, and of course it's impossible to put numbers on a hypothetical like that.

I'm going to give my input, so rally the torches:

Ardus is crap... but I like HoC

Now, for usage I will explain how I have been using him:

I always have a 2x2 reanimate unit that slots Ankaur Maro as a figure upgrade so I have a cheap unit used exclusively for adding trays to my archers and my big block of reanimates. This would not be possible without Ardus, so it's saving me 9 points and 2 trays that I wouldn't use for damage.

I typically run a 3x2 block of reanimates because I have a round or two to build up that third row before engaging, no reason to pay for it, and HoC gives me access to all upgrades so I can slot a Carrion Lancer (take your pick) for additional wounds/damage for the block to survive. I also toss on Lingering Dead because it allows me the opportunity to ALWAYS reanimate, and it keeps my threat and rerolls high even during late hits. That saves me another 15 points from the trays I don't need to add before game start.

I also only run 2x1 archers because I would rather have 2 sets of archers than 1 with rerolls, especially when they are being used for blight only. Dial in a free surge, or roll for surges and dial in the wind rune shifts. Wind Rune isn't available on a 2x1, so that's 14 points saved as well.

My typical build is both blocks of reanimates, and the archers, so I'm saving 38 points worth of trays that aren't typically needed in a standard game. My 3x2 block has never died in a 8 round game. It's come close, but when you run Mistland Saboteur to remove upgrade cards, like moment of inspiration or combat ingenuity, you turn your reanimates into an upgrade discarder which reduces your opponent's overall point score with every skill, and reduces the future damage output.

I ran Mistland Saboteur once and had success with it... I need to go back to it.

I have the "never run the same army twice" disease unfortunately. I can't stop tinkering with my lists...

One thing to remember as well when evaluating points saved by host of crows is on top of the saved points you have one more unit on the table to protect flanks and support other units.

On 5/11/2018 at 3:23 AM, Jukey said:

One thing to remember as well when evaluating points saved by host of crows is on top of the saved points you have one more unit on the table to protect flanks and support other units.

I'm not sure I understand. There seems to be consensus that (with the current available selection of units) Ardus is an expensive unit. And sadly, the contributions to this thread have not discovered or experienced that there are much of any savings from HoC (yet), instead, it seems to be more fluff-oriented.

Your suggestion of the Dispatch runner on the Death Knights is interesting. Though personally, if a 2x1 reanimates for 16p in base cost did the same job, I'd pick that.

I guess my take on it is Ardus is worth about 25 points as a unit, so if I save more than 12 points on my units due to host of crows, I feel I’m getting my points out of him. Ardus is a great home for the power glove, and is a good deterrent to flanking units if kept in reserve.

I feel like you get the most it of Host of across when the unit you run smaller than it should be isn’t intended for direct combat.

Alternatively, you could get mileage if dropping the points allows for an extra needed unit to make it into your army

I've been thinking about the HoC enabled 2x1 DK with Dispatch runner:

The main targets of the Dispatch runner probably should be either the 4x3 Reanimates or the 3x2 Lancer (with CI and MCW), whose expected damage output probably is 8-12, so let us call it an average of 10. Also note that the stun token does reduce the Lancers' next attack damage by -3.

So does the DK with dispatch runner at 31 points add any additional value, lets say compared against the equally costed 2x1 Lancer with Ranked discipline?

The average damage output of the Lancers should be somewhere around 8, which is lower than the 10. The Lancers would have a higher risk of getting destroyed, but also consider the extra damage recieved due to increased risk of being outflanked since you don't want the DK's engaged.

Thus, I think that I see these alternatives as pretty much equally strong over all, which means no points saving from HoC, but extra fluff due to having one more army build. And actually, given that I see HoC being priced at 7-10p included in Ardus' cost, I'd consider the DK dispatch runner as (subjectively) weaker.

I'm going to use him to try spamming corruption rune.

4 Archers, corruption rune, close quarters targeting and Deathmist Banners

1-2 damage to all enemies at range 1

1-3 damage + token to 1 enemy at range 1 to 4

Red and Blue shot, even when in combat, possibly giving out a blight token.

In my experience, the units that shrug off the bonus damage really don't like the bane tokens.