4 hours ago, Chucknuckle said:

In the world of miniature gaming, paying $250 to use your models in a new edition is not considered to be a bargain.

Not even Games Workshop has the gall the charge that kind of money, and they're renowned for being the greediest miniatures company on the planet.

When your prices make even GW blush, you know you done goofed.

The majority of folks aren’t going to be paying $250. The majority will be sub-$200, even at full msrp. I’m not counting saws renegades or the reaper, because those are not mandatory to go to 2.0 and you were going to buy them anyway without a fuss before 2.0 was announced.

What do you want them to do, mail out conversion kits of exactly the ships you have free?

I would rather buy $190 (full msrp, and I’m likely to get it sourced cheaper) for the cards and cardboard to make my models viable then buy a new rule book for $100 and then have to hand write down anything about what’s changed.

Also, how many of us outside of epic or HotAC flew everything we own? Now we can again!

Came for the arithmetic.....was not dissapointed.

**** I love math....

16 hours ago, Reiver said:

I approve of the upgrade packs
I am more than a little peeved at the distribution of cardboard within them.

How many people will need 3+ X-wings? Anyone that bought even 'one of each' of the expansion packs, without a single duplicate SKU in their collection, ever.
How many people will need 2 Decimators, or YT-2400s? Plenty, to be sure, but how many of them are the kind of collector who wouldn't need a second upgrade pack anyway?

The double Falcon cardboard gets a pass given there's two models now, though I'm given to understand the second Falcon is now a different faction anyway, soooo... ehn.

The "Two of each, unless its points are really cheap" approach is a lot less compassionate than it could be.

You forgot about Epic. And Double Epic Teamplay. I own 18 X Wings. Never deployed them all in one battle... But yes 15. And 10 to 12 X Wings was not uncommon when we played weekly Epic scenarios. Rogue Squadron themed.

"Start of Combat Phase. If within R3 of another squadron mate, Evade Token"

Many ways to play the game.

6 hours ago, Handler said:

My main problem will be stopping myself from buying 2nd copies of all the 1.0 ships I currently have only one of, just so I don't have so many leftover components

I'm also in that same boat. I just picked up a 2nd copy of each of the TIE Phantom, TIE ADV. Prototype, Gunboat, & TIE Aggressor because of what I saw was in the conversion kits.

21 hours ago, Marinealver said:

So X-wing 2.0 is a little more expensive. Well to be fair any miniatures game is not cheap. But instead people taking a look at their dozens of ship models and figuring out how many conversion kits they have to buy to go 2.0 on everything. I am going to work the other way. Starting from scratch how much 1st edition do you need to use everything in the conversion kit. I am going to use rough figures and assume that you get Aces pack in addition to blister pack.

Your math may be fine, but your logic is flawed, because this isn't how anyone builds a collection. This is like when a newspaper says it has "$1340 in coupon savings!". Yes, if you add up the face value of every coupon, I'm sure the total is correct, but using every one of them would be absurd. No one is going to get $1340 in savings, they're going to save 15 bucks at the grocery store, and maybe another 70 if they happen to buy that new TV they've been pondering for three months.

How many players have a collection that exactly matches a conversion pack? [feel free to take this question as genuine rather than rhetorical]

20 hours ago, Reiver said:

I approve of the upgrade packs
I am more than a little peeved at the distribution of cardboard within them.

How many people will need 3+ X-wings? Anyone that bought even 'one of each' of the expansion packs, without a single duplicate SKU in their collection, ever.
How many people will need 2 Decimators, or YT-2400s? Plenty, to be sure, but how many of them are the kind of collector who wouldn't need a second upgrade pack anyway?

The double Falcon cardboard gets a pass given there's two models now, though I'm given to understand the second Falcon is now a different faction anyway, soooo... ehn.

The "Two of each, unless its points are really cheap" approach is a lot less compassionate than it could be.

This is it, right here.

Second edition has a lot of positive things going for it. The rules changes are fantastic; they read like a wishlist of every rule- and balance-fixing design thread on these forums since, like, Wave 2. Adjusting points on the fly is good, but making them only available electronically is... inconvenient, at best.

I'll admit the conversion kits are probably the best way to implement the change, given the structure of the game. It's the proportions that I don't like. I have a nice, Goldilocks type collection: not too big, not too small. I checked it against the kit contents, and one of each kit will cover everything I have, with a few notable exceptions:

TIE Fighters

Y-wing (one)

X-wings

So, the things the kits fall short on, are the most basic and iconic ships in the game/lore/universe/IP? Does that look right to anyone? And yes, I know I don't usually need to field every one of my X-wings, but... what if I want to? I mean, that's why I paid money for them. So what do I have to buy to upgrade the rest of those? Well, it would take an entire second kit, that's what. Because - whether it's for legitimate logistical reasons or not - they aren't offering any other options.

Can people not understand why that sucks? Can you not understand how this might diminish my enthusiasm over "how completely awesome" 2.0 is? Yeah, it still looks good, but the "awesome" is most certainly not "complete" in my eyes.

- H8

11 minutes ago, Hatemonger said:

Your math may be fine, but your logic is flawed, because this isn't how anyone builds a collection. This is like when a newspaper says it has "$1340 in coupon savings!". Yes, if you add up the face value of every coupon, I'm sure the total is correct, but using every one of them would be absurd. No one is going to get $1340 in savings, they're going to save 15 bucks at the grocery store, and maybe another 70 if they happen to buy that new TV they've been pondering for three months.

How many players have a collection that exactly matches a conversion pack? [feel free to take this question as genuine rather than rhetorical]

You don't need a collection that *exactly* matches the conversion pack, it's just a question of how CLOSELY your colleciton matches. How many extra models do you have past a ingle conversion kit, how many extra conversions does the kit have that you don't have models to use.

Myself for instance, I only have 6-7 ships not ocvered by 1 rebel conversion kit, most of which I probably won't bother converting unless I seriously love them in 2e. I only have 6 conversions included in the kit that I don't have models for (and 1 of htose is sabines tie, so I could just use any tie model I own).

For imperial I again have 7 models not covered, and the defender is probably the only one I might care about (if 3 defenders are good in 2e). That one has 11 conversions I'm missing models for.

Scum is the faction I'm most likely to geta second kit for, where I'm left with 13 unconverted models and only have 4 spare conversions.

For one of each conversion kit, it's something like $1.68 per model converted across my colleciton. If I buy the second scum conversion kit, it jumps up to over $3.00 per model converted by that kit, and there's some that I don't care about actually converting (will probably never run 6 Z95s for instance). At that point, its probably cheaper to just pick the ships I actually care about converting and buying second hand.

Quote

This is it, right here.

Second edition has a lot of positive things going for it. The rules changes are fantastic; they read like a wishlist of every rule- and balance-fixing design thread on these forums since, like, Wave 2. Adjusting points on the fly is good, but making them only available electronically is... inconvenient, at best.

I'll admit the conversion kits are probably the best way to implement the change, given the structure of the game. It's the proportions that I don't like. I have a nice, Goldilocks type collection: not too big, not too small. I checked it against the kit contents, and one of each kit will cover everything I have, with a few notable exceptions:

TIE Fighters

Y-wing (one)

X-wings

So, the things the kits fall short on, are the most basic and iconic ships in the game/lore/universe/IP? Does that look right to anyone? And yes, I know I don't usually need to field every one of my X-wings, but... what if I want to? I mean, that's why I paid money for them. So what do I have to buy to upgrade the rest of those? Well, it would take an entire second kit, that's what. Because - whether it's for legitimate logistical reasons or not - they aren't offering any other options.

Can people not understand why that sucks? Can you not understand how this might diminish my enthusiasm over "how completely awesome" 2.0 is? Yeah, it still looks good, but the "awesome" is most certainly not "complete" in my eyes.

- H8

In the case of x-wings, someone was saying the developers goal was to only have 4 x-wings fieldable (in standard) again, in which case a core, renegades and 1 conversion kit covers you for standard play. TIE Fighters you're 1-2 short of a full swarm, assuming it's a good list again.

And as everyone is repeatedly pointing out all over the forums, you *don't need a second kit if all you want is 1 y-wing and another x-wing or two.* You buy second hand. There's already at least 1 shop selling preorders for single ship conversions from broken down conversion kits, and there'll be more as we get closer or after release.

And that's assuming there's no other local players that you could trade conversions with.

16 hours ago, Marinealver said:

But the Imperial Conversion kit really had me scratching my head, 3 Starwings (AKA Assault Gunboats)? Yeah I don't know how they got their numbers.

Yep. 3 Starwings is totally wrong.

Who would buy only 3 Starwings?

I'm glad i never made my collection on numbers ignorance is bliss they say! I'm going to get Starter Kit and Scum Conversion. Honestly I cant put more ships really on table with 200p game, so one should be good and I think it was their intension, but you guys go crazy and ALL-in so no wonder it will get pricey.

I'm thinking that I have used close to $1500 on my X-Wing miniatures, just guesstimation! So another >$100 is not too bad.

?

1) Take your conversion kit to Kinkos or office max.

2) Place all dials and or ship chits on the color copier

3) Copy

4) Cut and glue to your old dials and ship chits

5) Go home wiser, with a lot more money in your pocket.

On 5/6/2018 at 11:41 PM, Chucknuckle said:

In the world of miniature gaming, paying $250 to use your models in a new edition is not considered to be a bargain.

Not even Games Workshop has the gall the charge that kind of money, and they're renowned for being the greediest miniatures company on the planet.

When your prices make even GW blush, you know you done goofed.

You have to consider what $250 is getting you as that is just the median average. It is between converting 1 faction to converting a collection of all three with 2 of everything. For most part I also included getting the new 2.0 models for the calculation. Now granted it is not likely someone is just going to get a single conversion pack and a core set and be good. So what does $250 get you, well it is more than 3 conversion kits and a core set as that will be only $190. So with the extra $60 that can get you 3 blisters or two slave ones.

So lets go with a more accurate figure, Lets say converting an Empire only collection, Core set and at least 8 tie fighters so 2 conversion kits, and we want the new model/expansion packs. So, $40+2*$50+$20+$20=$200 $180. So that is for a single faction. Of course 3 factions it is going to cost a whole lot more Might not be $600 unless you are getting 3 core sets. Still it is the steepest step in continuity. In the past unless you are getting 2 of every ship, $200 is a price not likely dropped on a single wave, even ones with 6 ships released.

3 hours ago, Hatemonger said:

Your math may be fine, but your logic is flawed, because this isn't how anyone builds a collection. This is like when a newspaper says it has "$1340 in coupon savings!". Yes, if you add up the face value of every coupon, I'm sure the total is correct, but using every one of them would be absurd. No one is going to get $1340 in savings, they're going to save 15 bucks at the grocery store, and maybe another 70 if they happen to buy that new TV they've been pondering for three months.

How many players have a collection that exactly matches a conversion pack? [feel free to take this question as genuine rather than rhetorical]

...

Well yeah, I addressed that part in the last paragraph of my post. Everyone would likely have more cardboard or more models as no one unless they started right now will have a collection that matches two conversion packs perfectly. I also didn't include huge ships too as many of those were also used as model update packs so that throws it way off. I mean I could run a full calculation on every huge ship then, repaint packs, then individual blisters then add individual blisters until 1.0 matches a 2.0 conversion set, and try to speculate how much wave 2 will be and all the Resistance and 1st Order conversions are going to cost. We all know that will be more than $1340.

Also these are not coupons, not only do they not have a value but they are useless without the model from 1.0.

re: the app, we should note that we don't actually know how complicated list building is going to be without it

if, for example, each upgrade scales differently with every ship AND every initiative, you're going to need an xcel sheet

if it's something like...say, a flat cost +X for an initiative "group", with a few exceptions depending on ship-type, then I'm sure you could manage just writing the info down somewhere

initiative group would be 1-3 (+0 cost), 4-5 (+X), and 6 (+2X or X + 2 or X + Y or something) because 6 is kinda nuts

4 hours ago, VanderLegion said:

You don't need a collection that *exactly* matches the conversion pack, it's just a question of how CLOSELY your colleciton matches. How many extra models do you have past a ingle conversion kit, how many extra conversions does the kit have that you don't have models to use.

Myself for instance, I only have 6-7 ships not ocvered by 1 rebel conversion kit, most of which I probably won't bother converting unless I seriously love them in 2e. I only have 6 conversions included in the kit that I don't have models for (and 1 of htose is sabines tie, so I could just use any tie model I own).

For imperial I again have 7 models not covered, and the defender is probably the only one I might care about (if 3 defenders are good in 2e). That one has 11 conversions I'm missing models for.

Scum is the faction I'm most likely to geta second kit for, where I'm left with 13 unconverted models and only have 4 spare conversions.

For one of each conversion kit, it's something like $1.68 per model converted across my colleciton. If I buy the second scum conversion kit, it jumps up to over $3.00 per model converted by that kit, and there's some that I don't care about actually converting (will probably never run 6 Z95s for instance). At that point, its probably cheaper to just pick the ships I actually care about converting and buying second hand.

In the case of x-wings, someone was saying the developers goal was to only have 4 x-wings fieldable (in standard) again, in which case a core, renegades and 1 conversion kit covers you for standard play. TIE Fighters you're 1-2 short of a full swarm, assuming it's a good list again.

And as everyone is repeatedly pointing out all over the forums, you *don't need a second kit if all you want is 1 y-wing and another x-wing or two.* You buy second hand. There's already at least 1 shop selling preorders for single ship conversions from broken down conversion kits, and there'll be more as we get closer or after release.

And that's assuming there's no other local players that you could trade conversions with.

The problem is, if everyone is trying to buy X-wing tokens second hand, and the vast majority of people have 'at least some' x-wings to begin with, there's going to be a massive shortage of those specific tokens. Because there weren't enough to begin with.

Meanwhile, we will be attempting arts and crafts with our Decimator and Ghost cardboard... because anyone that buys a second box for any reason ends up with 4 of the **** things.

Those will be trivial to get spares for, but you'll almost certainly never need them.

1 minute ago, Reiver said:

The problem is, if everyone is trying to buy X-wing tokens second hand, and the vast majority of people have 'at least some' x-wings to begin with, there's going to be a massive shortage of those specific tokens. Because there weren't enough to begin with.

Meanwhile, we will be attempting arts and crafts with our Decimator and Ghost cardboard... because anyone that buys a second box for any reason ends up with 4 of the **** things.

Those will be trivial to get spares for, but you'll almost certainly never need them.

If it's true that you will only be able to fly 4 x-wings in a list, then most people probably *wont* be trying to buy x-wings second hand, since renegades, core, and kit gives you 4. Granted, some people will want more for epic play or larger games, but *most* will probalby be looking mainly for the 200 point list. TIE Fighters might be more of a problem. And I'll absolutely be using my second ghost from my 1 rebel kit

2 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

If it's true that you will only be able to fly 4 x-wings in a list, then most people probably *wont* be trying to buy x-wings second hand, since renegades, core, and kit gives you 4. Granted, some people will want more for epic play or larger games, but *most* will probalby be looking mainly for the 200 point list. TIE Fighters might be more of a problem. And I'll absolutely be using my second ghost from my 1 rebel kit

Not going to lie, I feel a little odd that I still end up with an original X-wing that get relegated to shelf duty.

Also a little bothered that after buying no less than two starter kits, I need to buy another one after all. What on earth is in it that I still need at this point beyond the damage deck, and some lightly marked templates? :/

Pilots and upgrades

ill have like 3 xwings that aren’t “usable” since I’ll have 2 models from renegades and the core set, but I’d rather have those articulated wings anyway

Yeah adding on renegade and core set dials into the conversion numbers doesn't work for people who want their current 4 x wings up to date.

Adding those on leaves you with 4 you can use and 2 you cant. So back to the secondary market. Oh look it'll be pure decimators and jumpmasters at reasonable price. with 8 bucks per x wing dial and 5 bucks per x wing tile and card set.

It's not an end of the world edition change but don't act like they ain't ******* us around a bit with the conversion contents dispersal.

Do bear in mind that the current conversion kits are not, essentially, complete. The Rebel conversion kit is not a complete conversion for your B-wings, it will not contain all pilot and upgrade cards for the ship when the 2.0 B-wing is released. There will be more conversion kits coming, potentially one (or several) with every wave. And these will also have a dollar value attached. This could change the maths quite a bit.

46 minutes ago, redxavier said:

Do bear in mind that the current conversion kits are not, essentially, complete. The Rebel conversion kit is not a complete conversion for your B-wings, it will not contain all pilot and upgrade cards for the ship when the 2.0 B-wing is released. There will be more conversion kits coming, potentially one (or several) with every wave. And these will also have a dollar value attached. This could change the maths quite a bit.

I don't think there is enough information to make that statement, in fact they have alluded to the exact opposite. My understanding is that there will be 5 conversion kits (Rebels, Imperials, Scum & Villainy, The Resistance, The New Order) with hints that a 6th "Epic" conversion may become available at some point down the line.

My understanding is that once the conversion kits are out and the new core set is out, everything released from that point will new content and when they say new content, they don't mean new ships... For example they may release a new B-Wing and that will be a 2.0 B-Wing that will have new pilots and upgrades not part of any conversion which you will have to purchase if you want to make use of.

They will reprint all the ships again, but their won't be any additional conversion kits for them, you will have to buy the ships. This whole "converting" is just a paper conversion of the existing material. When they make new B-Wings, A-Wings, etc... they will create new content for them that you will have to buy (the model) to get.

That is my understanding of how this will play out, I could be wrong but to me as a business model for them to re-release 14 waves of ships which not a single X-Wing player has any reason at all to buy after buying the conversion kit would be totally insane. I mean literally I have no reason to buy a single 2nd edition ship for the next 2-3 years as they get these waves out if that is how they are doing it. But I don't believe that for a second, I expect if you want to play 2.0, conversion or not your going to end up having to rebuy everything anyway.

4 minutes ago, BigKahuna said:

I don't think there is enough information to make that statement, in fact they have alluded to the exact opposite. My understanding is that there will be 5 conversion kits (Rebels, Imperials, Scum & Villainy, The Resistance, The New Order) with hints that a 6th "Epic" conversion may become available at some point down the line.

My understanding is that once the conversion kits are out and the new core set is out, everything released from that point will new content and when they say new content, they don't mean new ships... For example they may release a new B-Wing and that will be a 2.0 B-Wing that will have new pilots and upgrades not part of any conversion which you will have to purchase if you want to make use of.

They will reprint all the ships again, but their won't be any additional conversion kits for them, you will have to buy the ships. This whole "converting" is just a paper conversion of the existing material. When they make new B-Wings, A-Wings, etc... they will create new content for them that you will have to buy (the model) to get.

That is my understanding of how this will play out.

I wouldn’t be surprised if they did it that way, but there are rumours circulating that there will be an “alternate upgrade path” for veteran players. I imagine this to mean there will be a conversion kit for each wave, covering the content released in that wave. But we’ll see,

2 minutes ago, Chucknuckle said:

I wouldn’t be surprised if they did it that way, but there are rumours circulating that there will be an “alternate upgrade path” for veteran players. I imagine this to mean there will be a conversion kit for each wave, covering the content released in that wave. But we’ll see,

It would be very nice of them, but again, I don't see how that makes business sense. If they do that, as mentioned, there would be no reason for any active X-Wing player to ever buy anything but the conversion kits again. It would actually be kind of boring.. I mean we want new content, but really there are already enough different ships, I think the interest is in revitalizing and finding cause to use our old ships again.

I saw GW's name tossed around here. "they are not that evil, ffg is worse?"
Oh yeah, go ahead.

have a small collection, of three factions.
See how much you need to spend just on books.
They even SOLD indexes this time, just to sell the update again as a codex, later.and the rules aren't free either. And zero courtesy, if you buy the real book, you need to spend again for the ebook (well it was like this in 7th)

"but but but... i play casual, and can play with the indexes."

Yeah, and you can play casual with 1.0 rules that you already have.
or use stickers and proxies and play 2.0 rules, that are all free.

Look, I get it. Nobody likes to spend money this. It's the crux of adult life.

Want a cheap hobby? go to casual sports.
I heard that one leather sphere, and four markers can be used for 22 players in a casual soccer game.
hard to get cheaper than that.

My upgrade cost will be $190. I need a core set and 2 imperial conversion kits.

All the rebel and scum detritus I accumulated over the life of 1.0 for various cards (crack shot, expertise, harpoons etc) will not need updating and I will never need to buy another rebel or scum pack again. It adds up to $400 in expansion packs I bought so I could fly imperials with the upgrades I wanted. That tax is repealed with 2.0.

My conversion to 2.0 will cost me $995.44 plus 49,000 frequent flier miles. OH MY!!

Core Set $39.95

Empire Conversion set $49.95

Rebel Conversion set $49.95

Scum Conversion set $49.95

Saw's Renegades $39.95

Tie Reaper $29.95

T-65 expansion x3 $59.85

Y-Wing Expansion x4 $79.80

Tie Fighter Expansion x2 $39.90

Fang Fighter x2 $39.90

GenCon Badge to pick up early release $110

Hotel room for 4 nights at Gen Con $140 (Nearby military base)

Rental Car at Gen Con $266.29

Flight to Gen Con 49,000 frequent Flier Miles

So, $479.15 just to buy that game components and $516.29 for the Gen Con trip to pick it up.

I'm excited about the conversion kits. They have alot of extra cardboard currently for me. Not gonna complain just buy 1.0 stuff until I've completed my collection of ships needed to field 90% of the conversion kit contents. I quit looking at cost a while back. My kid enjoys the game and the variants we play.