So X-wing 2.0 is a little more expensive. Well to be fair any miniatures game is not cheap. But instead people taking a look at their dozens of ship models and figuring out how many conversion kits they have to buy to go 2.0 on everything. I am going to work the other way. Starting from scratch how much 1st edition do you need to use everything in the conversion kit. I am going to use rough figures and assume that you get Aces pack in addition to blister pack.

• Small Blister (A-wing) $15
• Large Blister (TIE Punisher) $20
• 2 ship pack (Rebel Aces) $30
• Most Wanted Expansion Pack (3 ship) $40
• Large Ship Expansion (Punishing One) $30
• Larger Ship Expansion (VT-49 Decimator) $40
• Ghost Expansion Pack (Large ship and small ship) $50

This is what I price everything at. Again rough figures so if it is more expensive in Australia or the conversion to pounds is not exact, that is just minuscule nitpicking and you can go make another thread about how much X number of conversion kits is going to cost you and how much you already spent. I am going to assume players have 1 classic core set and pick up an Aces and/or most wanted pack before individual blisters, I am also not counting resistance/1st order as they are not out in 2nd edition yet as well as Saws Renegades because they have both 2nd and 1st. No epic ships have been counted as well. So using this model I got

• Rebel Ships $730
• Imperial Ships $555
• Scum Ships $805
• TOTAL $2010 note: subtracted 2 core sets to remove a small amount of redundancy

note: I count start with a classic core set for each even scum although there is no scum models. I don't cross over so the Y-wing from the most wanted is not computed for Rebel ships.

Again that is assuming you start from nothing and purchase each ships according to an optimized plan such as expansions. Again I didn't count huge ships because they are still in 1st edition and this is just to get the models. So totals adding the 2nd edition core set ($40) and faction conversion kit ($50) this is how much they cost.

• Rebel Alliance Faction $820
• Galactic Empire Faction $645
• Scum & Villainy Faction $895
• GRAND TOTAL $2280 note: subtracted the cost of two core sets to remove a small amount of redundancy.

I will admit comparing to my collection I will have some cardboard I will not be using (because I usually don't buy duplicates of every ship) and there will be some ships not covered by the conversion kits (because of huge ships and multiple core sets I had purchased in the past). But that is the cost of a conversion kit from scratched. However most of us already have the models or spent >$1000 not including huge ships so we won't be dropping >$2000 just to go to 2.0. For those that play all 3 (which I do) we are probably just going to go drop $190~$320 and call it good. Those that will go solo faction (or stick with a primary faction) will likely get core set and 2 conversion kits so around $140~$190 just on core 2 conversion packs and expansions.

So that is how much 2.0 is going to cost you. It could cost up to over $2,000 if you decided to set your collection on fire, or it could cost $200~$300 just to update and get a a few more models to your collection.

I honestly don’t understand all The complaints on the forum, with very limited and targeted exception. I’ll call them maybe 1% of xwing players I understand their argument.

Way more than 1% are complaining though.

This is a bargain to bring everything over. I am pretty darn happy with how ffg is caring for the folks who have invested in 1.0 rather than saying good luck, buy new ships.

12 hours ago, ScummyRebel said:

I honestly don’t understand all The complaints on the forum, with very limited and targeted exception. I’ll call them maybe 1% of xwing players I understand their argument.

Way more than 1% are complaining though.

This is a bargain to bring everything over. I am pretty darn happy with how ffg is caring for the folks who have invested in 1.0 rather than saying good luck, buy new ships.

Maybe, just maybe your assumption about the percentage distribution is wrong.

1/3 of my regular local players are couples for example. Couples need some double uniques, so they basically need double conversion kits, but rarely they went all out and have larger collections than normal individual players. One from each and a few extra for those ships that both want to fly at the same time. Like Corran Horn, Miranda, etc

About another quarter or so of the regulars have huge swarms from their epic play or hotac sessions. And in tournaments there is always this crowd of new players who have like 10 ships and just barely manage to build anything decent, while being to shy to loan ships and/or cards from us.

Anyway, what I am trying to say is that there are a lot of ways to collect minis in this game and alot of derivation from what seems to be the standard way to collect things. Heck, I would not be surprised to hear that our new world champion is sharing his collection with his dad.

I still think that using the aftermarket as solution is the best way to handle this, because FFG is a mess with printing on demand delivery and stores don't like to order one million separate conversion kits. Still a pain in the *** for me.

Nicely worked out. Personally, if I decide to convert, I’ll be short from conversion kits to the tune of: 1 A-wing, 1 X-wing and 1 TIE fighter. Oh, and I think I’d be short a defender and a bomber for the Empire.

Really, I’d see a lot more cardboard coming out of the conversion kits for which I presently have no use, due to not buying multiples of large ships and selected others, or just not buying any copies of certain other ships. As I posted else where, there are dials for 21 ships in the Rebel kit I’d have no use for. Compared to 13 I wouldn’t use from the Imperial. (Maybe I’m just more of an Imperial player at heart....?)

For the most part, a $50 dollar conversion per faction would cover me fine. I might come up a bit short for the conversion, on the other hand.... (I never saw a reason to have more than one Millennium Falcon; she makes a gorgeous focal point for a squad when you use her, and while there were other YT-1300s, the Falcon, which three of the four pilots are all associated with, is one of a kind.)

39 minutes ago, ScummyRebel said:

I honestly don’t understand all The complaints on the forum, with very limited and targeted exception. I’ll call them maybe 1% of xwing players I understand their argument.

Way more than 1% are complaining though.

This is a bargain to bring everything over. I am pretty darn happy with how ffg is caring for the folks who have invested in 1.0 rather than saying good luck, buy new ships.

I approve of the upgrade packs
I am more than a little peeved at the distribution of cardboard within them.

How many people will need 3+ X-wings? Anyone that bought even 'one of each' of the expansion packs, without a single duplicate SKU in their collection, ever.
How many people will need 2 Decimators, or YT-2400s? Plenty, to be sure, but how many of them are the kind of collector who wouldn't need a second upgrade pack anyway?

The double Falcon cardboard gets a pass given there's two models now, though I'm given to understand the second Falcon is now a different faction anyway, soooo... ehn.

The "Two of each, unless its points are really cheap" approach is a lot less compassionate than it could be.

admittedly, the two Xs specifically are a weird inclusion

we get 3 gunboats (not much cheaper) and 3 khirax + 3 Fangs (both literally 1 point cheaper for their least expensive pilots) in their respective faction kits. not sure what's up with the x. maybe accounting for the core?

would def rather have two xs and a phantom 2 than two each

idk, there's def some room for nitpicking a few curious decisions in the conversion kits (3 vts was thankfully a typo, but 3 quads???). Not sure what inspired them.

if it were up to me (not as a player but as a designer), a kit would include a ship per number of times it appeared across all expansion that it came in. Then, every ship with only 1 expac would get another ship. (so 2 minimum)

though then you'd have to **** around with z-95 quantities because they wouldn't be enough

(and people would complain regardless)

I somewhat understand only 2 X-Wings in the kit when you think about needing the starter set and buying Saw's pack will give you 2 more dials (assuming none of Saw's and the starter are in the conversion kit).

41 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

admittedly, the two Xs specifically are a weird inclusion

we get 3 gunboats (not much cheaper) and 3 khirax + 3 Fangs (both literally 1 point cheaper for their least expensive pilots) in their respective faction kits. not sure what's up with the x. maybe accounting for the core?

I think they're accounting for Saw's and the Core. With one Saw's, one Core, and one Conversion Kit, you have 2 models and 4 dials of 2.0 X-Wings. Probably means you still have an extra X-Wing lying around if you bought Original Core, X-Wing pack, and a Transport, but it's a pretty solid start.

2 hours ago, skotothalamos said:

I think they're accounting for Saw's and the Core. With one Saw's, one Core, and one Conversion Kit, you have 2 models and 4 dials of 2.0 X-Wings. Probably means you still have an extra X-Wing lying around if you bought Original Core, X-Wing pack, and a Transport, but it's a pretty solid start.

I remain thoroughly troubled by the idea that you will end up with five models and four dials, though.
Especially considering, as noted, so many other similar ships do get the trio, and few are more iconic than, you know, x-wings.

4 hours ago, Mrk1984 said:

I somewhat understand only 2 X-Wings in the kit when you think about needing the starter set and buying Saw's pack will give you 2 more dials (assuming none of Saw's and the starter are in the conversion kit).

I didn't include Saw Expansion because it is going to have 2.0 already. There is no need for a conversion kit with that.

5 hours ago, Reiver said:

I approve of the upgrade packs
I am more than a little peeved at the distribution of cardboard within them.

How many people will need 3+ X-wings? Anyone that bought even 'one of each' of the expansion packs, without a single duplicate SKU in their collection, ever.
How many people will need 2 Decimators, or YT-2400s? Plenty, to be sure, but how many of them are the kind of collector who wouldn't need a second upgrade pack anyway?

The double Falcon cardboard gets a pass given there's two models now, though I'm given to understand the second Falcon is now a different faction anyway, soooo... ehn.

The "Two of each, unless its points are really cheap" approach is a lot less compassionate than it could be.

I will admit some of hte numbers are a little funny. I can understand 3 X-wing assuming you get two of each and a single core set, 3 Scykes will be 2 scyks and the C-roc. But the Imperial Conversion kit really had me scratching my head, 3 Starwings (AKA Assault Gunboats)? Yeah I don't know how they got their numbers. For the most part it seems like core set and 2x expansions. I would say maybe they were accounting for aces pack but Rebels have 3 A-wings and only 2 B-wings so that is clearly not the case.

6 hours ago, ScummyRebel said:

I honestly don’t understand all The complaints on the forum, with very limited and targeted exception. I’ll call them maybe 1% of xwing players I understand their argument.

Way more than 1% are complaining though.

This is a bargain to bring everything over. I am pretty darn happy with how ffg is caring for the folks who have invested in 1.0 rather than saying good luck, buy new ships.

I think part of the whining is looking at the conversion process as having to pay again for something that I already bought. I'll admit it was my initial reaction. I play casual so most of the complaints about the game have had zero effect on my play.

8 hours ago, Marinealver said:

So X-wing 2.0 is a little more expensive. Well to be fair any miniatures game is not cheap. But instead people taking a look at their dozens of ship models and figuring out how many conversion kits they have to buy to go 2.0 on everything. I am going to work the other way. Starting from scratch how much 1st edition do you need to use everything in the conversion kit. I am going to use rough figures and assume that you get Aces pack in addition to blister pack.

• Small Blister (A-wing) $15
• Large Blister (TIE Punisher) $20
• 2 ship pack (Rebel Aces) $30
• Most Wanted Expansion Pack (3 ship) $40
• Large Ship Expansion (Punishing One) $40
• Larger Ship Expansion (VT-49 Decimator) $50
• Ghost Expansion Pack (Large ship and small ship) $50

Couple errors in the math here: Punishing One size large ship boxes are only $30, Decimator size are only $40 (using USD retail prices).

In general though I agree, the conversion kits are a great value as long as you can use a large portion of it. If you're buying ot for just a few ships, there's probably going to be much cheaper options.

2 hours ago, Stoneface said:

I think part of the whining is looking at the conversion process as having to pay again for something that I already bought. I'll admit it was my initial reaction. I play casual so most of the complaints about the game have had zero effect on my play.

A point I also mean to bring up with this post. We all spend money on X-wing rather consistently. Every wave and between wave expansion we have been dropping $60~$200 dollars 3 or for times a year. I will admit that the first conversion is going to be a larger step as I already calculated roughly on average this is going to be $250 for a player to convert. Not to say it cant go higher, getting a core set, each expansion and 2 of every conversion kits in case you had 8 tie fighter or 4 X-wings that will run you $460, and if all your ships have not been converted by 2.0 then you are not playing 2.0, you are playing X-wing Apocalypse. So yeah this year has surprisingly gotten expensive. Even more so for me because I sort of fell out of collecting last year because of all the 1.0 product shenanigans. However so many threads were talking about how some need 3 of a conversion pack or how they already spend x amount of dollars and y number of conversion kits cost z more dollars.

I think it was time to get an actual perspective on how much conversion kits are going to cost to get everything into 2.0. Is it a good time for a new player to get in? Maybe not but soon, real soon would be a great time to start X-wing 2.0. Would I recommend the getting any of the 1st edition sets? Only the latest wave since it is also 2.0 or if they really want a specific ship such as the TIE Defender otherwise just wait for it to be re-released in a 2.0 expansion in a later wave.

2 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

Couple errors in the math here: Punishing One size large ship boxes are only $30, Decimator size are only $40 (using USD retail prices).

In general though I agree, the conversion kits are a great value as long as you can use a large portion of it. If you're buying ot for just a few ships, there's probably going to be much cheaper options.

thanks, I don't know how I mislabeled them but when I did my calculations I did use $30 for large ship boxes and $40 for larger sized large ship boxes.

I know a lot of people suggested secondary markets and I am starting to wonder how many single ship kits will be released via Ebay ala Emperor Palpatine and C-3PO? You might have people taking whole conversion kits and just posting them ship by ship up there to get that 4th X-wing.

9 minutes ago, Marinealver said:

I already calculated roughly on average this is going to be $250 for a player to convert.

8 hours ago, ScummyRebel said:

This is a bargain to bring everything over.

In the world of miniature gaming, paying $250 to use your models in a new edition is not considered to be a bargain.

Not even Games Workshop has the gall the charge that kind of money, and they're renowned for being the greediest miniatures company on the planet.

When your prices make even GW blush, you know you done goofed.

32 minutes ago, Marinealver said:

thanks, I don't know how I mislabeled them but when I did my calculations I did use $30 for large ship boxes and $40 for larger sized large ship boxes.

I know a lot of people suggested secondary markets and I am starting to wonder how many single ship kits will be released via Ebay ala Emperor Palpatine and C-3PO? You might have people taking whole conversion kits and just posting them ship by ship up there to get that 4th X-wing.

There's already at least one shop in the UK that has pre-orders available for split up conversion kits doing exactly this (not necessairly because they want a single ship, looks like just splitting up entire conversion kits to sell the individual ships). I'm sure there'll be more that do the same, along with players selling (or trading) extra conversions they don't need. Locally we're already planningt os et up a facebook thread/group or in person meetup or something to trade around extra conversions once it comes out to help ease the need for extra conversion kits.

3 minutes ago, Chucknuckle said:

In the world of miniature gaming, paying $250 to use your models in a new edition is not considered to be a bargain.

Not even Games Workshop has the gall the charge that kind of money, and they're renowned for being the greediest miniatures company on the planet.

When your prices make even GW blush, you know you done goofed.

How many times in the past has GW released changes that basically invalidated entire armies or large portions of them? And why does everyone keep comparing updating your entire x-wing collection (3 factions before, 5 factions in 2e) with updating *1* 40k army?

Also, from my understanding, an army in GW games is basically nothing but the models and books. They don't have to deal with dials, cardboard bases, etc that add to the burden of updating...

4 minutes ago, Marinealver said:

I know a lot of people suggested secondary markets and I am starting to wonder how many single ship kits will be released via Ebay ala Emperor Palpatine and C-3PO? You might have people taking whole conversion kits and just posting them ship by ship up there to get that 4th X-wing.

The issue boils down to the question what to do with conversion kits that you don't make full use of right now - unless you completely skip XW2.0.

You may

• just keep them and regret the spent money
• sell the unused parts, and maybe trade in for others that you need
• keep them for future additions. Now you can choose between buying 1.0 and 2.0 packs, if they are the same ship.

In my case, I have just a few scum ships, but nevertheless I might get the scum conversion kit at some point. Why? If I continue with XWing, I might want those scum ships anyway at some point. In fact, this is not unlikely to happen, judging from the past ...

The XW1.0 blisters will continue to lie on the shelves. They may drop in price. Also, with conv kits I can also get incomplete packs or just bare models, which didn't make that much sense before.

The same issue applies to the stores and distributors. The XW1.0 packs that have been printed already lose value, but they don't become worthless.

There is a principle in Table Top gaming, what I like to call "Gamers Math", but basically the way it works is that their is a presumption that anything new must be purchased and compared with anything old. It more typically happens in role-playing games where editions are usually straight replacements without backwards compatibility, but in miniature games editions tend to have backwards compatibility, though people still treat it as if it doesn't.

What people are really mad about is that there will be all new models, its not like they are just reprinting 2.0 molds, they are going to be producing new (presumably better) models, new paint jobs... main word to note here is NEW and gamers see that as "I must buy this if I want to play". Its similar to what happens when there is a tournament and they release special tournament cards that you can only get when participating... the complaint then is "hey its not fair that you can't buy it". All it is, is a different picture for a card they already have, and still people treat it as "additional content" which they MUST have or the world is unfair to them and FFG are a bunch of A-holes.

The fact that a conversion kit has been provided to keep using your old models is really not that relevant, most gamers will want to have the new stuff regardless, in particular since their are obvious improvements to the new stuff.

So your cost assessment that its cheap to convert (by comparison to repurchasing everything) is not really addressing the real issues these gamers have. Their problem is that FFG is producing new content that replaces the old content and while a conversion is available, people want the new stuff.

Its just how the "think" is, its nothing new, its really part of our cult of the new culture that exists in gaming in general. There is just an assumption that because a new edition of something comes out, that every edition before that is garbage to be thrown away, as if the simple existence of something new disqualifies anything that came before from being used.

Its a bit of a silly attitude and in a way you really can't do anything to satisfy this attitude, there is literally no business model that FFG could create in which they update to a new edition that isn't going to piss of people, what they did produce with the conversion kit was very generous and far more than what most companies would do for their fan base.

Just now, VanderLegion said:

How many times in the past has GW released changes that basically invalidated entire armies or large portions of them? And why does everyone keep comparing updating your entire x-wing collection (3 factions before, 5 factions in 2e) with updating *1* 40k army?

Also, from my understanding, an army in GW games is basically nothing but the models and books. They don't have to deal with dials, cardboard bases, etc that add to the burden of updating...

Not very often. I mean, apart from the whole 'Age of Sigmar' thing*. One of the joys of proper wargaming is that 'counts-as' and proxying are much more acceptable, so even units that no longer have rules profiles can still be used easily. And usually, while a player may WANT to add new units to their army after an edition change, it's rarely necessary. It's on the same sort of scale as Imperials losing the Firespray.

If we take Marinealver's stated figure of $250 as fair, the that's the equivalent of updating three factions for 40K, getting the rulebook, and still having $40 leftover. And when you consider that the core rules are a free download for 40K, and that the price for conversion is fixed no matter the size of your collection...

But leave 40K aside for a moment and take a look at... nearly every other miniatures wargame I can think of that's gone through an edition change. Very rarely does the cost of an edition change exceed $50-$100 (and that normally unlocks ALL factions) and sometimes the new rules/cards/etc are offered as free downloads.

* - EDIT: And I should add that it's my understanding that all the old WHFB models can still be used in AoS with freely available rules. I haven't played it myself since I converted my forces to Kings of War (and was able to convert multiple armies, more than 200+ models, with a single $40 purchase I might add) so I can't say for sure.

Just now, BigKahuna said:

Its just how the "think" is, its nothing new, its really part of our cult of the new culture that exists in gaming in general. There is just an assumption that because a new edition of something comes out, that every edition before that is garbage to be thrown away, as if the simple existence of something new disqualifies anything that came before from being used.

I think it's more a general fear of being stuck without anyone to play with. If you don't adopt the new edition and everyone else does, how do you find players? And it also usually excludes you from new units being released or from meaningful online discussion. Basically NOT adopting a new edition means you're isolating yourself from the community to a large extent.

I was very surprised when I saw such negative reactions to the Conversion Kits, because as someone with a wargaming background this looks like one of the best handled edition changes I've ever seen so far.

I've got an extensive Scum collection, with much smaller Rebel and Imperial squads and this sucks to a certain extent because it's not going to be worth converting the few Rebel and Imperial ships I have. But they'll make great early Christmas presents for a couple of friends with similarly Rebel and Imperial-centric collections and only got brought out once in a blue moon to demo the game with anyway.

The conversion kit doesn't cover me perfectly - I don't own any Aggressors, and only one each of the other large ships, while I have 2 extra Z-95s, Y-Wings and an extra Scurrg.

But the ships I have too many of I really do have an excessive amount of due to wanting to spam them. I own four Y-Wings because I wanted four TLTs on the field, not because I wanted four Y-Wings on the field.

With the new edition, this spam probably won't be nearly so appealing so I'm definitely going to wait until I know what kind of squads I want to fly under the new rules before I even consider whether I want to trade for or buy some more cardboard for those ships.

Meanwhile, everything else I see about 2.0 looks spectacularly exciting and is the exact game I fell in love with years ago that I don't really enjoy at this point in 1.0s life.

The future looks great, and the conversion kits aren't perfect for my collection but I can see that a lot of effort was put in to try and make them cover as many players as possible.

2 hours ago, Chucknuckle said:

I think it's more a general fear of being stuck without anyone to play with. If you don't adopt the new edition and everyone else does, how do you find players? And it also usually excludes you from new units being released or from meaningful online discussion. Basically NOT adopting a new edition means you're isolating yourself from the community to a large extent.

That's true, but that's how it works. At some point all games either die out or get new editions, those really are the ONLY two options for a game. It's clear that X-Wing's golden age is over, fewer and fewer new players are joining the coop and more and more people are leaving. It needs to be refreshed and FFG has done this with existing fans in mind, but you are absolutely right, anyone who doesn't convert/upgrade will be left out in the cold as is the case with every table top game ever put out. I mean is anyone still playing 4th edition Warhammer 40k?

New editions are necessary, and FFG would have been perfectly in their right to say "ok, lets reset this whole thing" and skip conversion kits. **** I don't know of any company that has ever done so much for the community to make an edition transition easier. Most of the time it's just a middle finger and a take it or leave it new product line. FFG is actually looking to make sure that everything we bought over the last 6 years is still going to be valid with a simple conversion kit and for pretty dirt cheap too.. I mean sure there are players out there who have pointlessly huge collections, but anyone who has bought based on "what is fieldable" will not need to buy more than 1 conversion kit of each faction and at this point I think many people will simply go single faction, certainly a consideration which actually makes the entire game way cheaper for you going forward as you will only need to buy from one faction (which notably is how it works in most miniature games, you don't collect all factions of a game typically).

I'm not disagreeing with you, I totally believe you are 100% right, if you don't convert, your collection will be rendered pretty useless pretty quick. It's pretty much a convert, or quit situation.

My main problem will be stopping myself from buying 2nd copies of all the 1.0 ships I currently have only one of, just so I don't have so many leftover components

Just now, BigKahuna said:

That's true, but that's how it works. At some point all games either die out or get new editions, those really are the ONLY two options for a game.

Not always. The ideal evolution for me is when a game goes OOP but the players keep it alive, ala Net Epic:

http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/index.php

And there's still active player groups for other 'dead' games like BFG, Mordheim, etc. I know some people still playing 8th edition WHFB.

I don't think people are generally afraid of a game going OOP (so long as their collections are relatively complete), they're afraid of the game changing and being left behind. Like if everyone moved to Age of Sigmar, and people are left with their WHFB collections and no one to play with.

1 hour ago, Chucknuckle said:

Not always. The ideal evolution for me is when a game goes OOP but the players keep it alive, ala Net Epic:

http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/index.php

And there's still active player groups for other 'dead' games like BFG, Mordheim, etc. I know some people still playing 8th edition WHFB.

I don't think people are generally afraid of a game going OOP (so long as their collections are relatively complete), they're afraid of the game changing and being left behind. Like if everyone moved to Age of Sigmar, and people are left with their WHFB collections and no one to play with.

Yeah we will have to agree to disagree on that obvservation, every single one of those games you just mentioned have communities begging developers to make a new versions of their favorite game and they would abandon their collections/game for new/updated content if available so fast it would make your head spin. These communities aren't built because they love the old editions, or that there is some sort of old school movement, they are built as a result of the lack of a new edition and support which they all wish they could get.

A beloved game going OOP is pretty much the worst thing that can happen to a community, it means they are locked permanently into a permanent meta state and forced to a 3rd party market, with content slowly becoming more expensive and less available. Its why communities built around OOP games are so tiny, most of us have more facebook friends then make up the entire community.

The ideal situation is always a new edition, it refreshes the game, shows commitment from the developer and typically is driven by years of experience with the previous edition giving it a huge edge over the previous edition. There is a cost associated with it for the consumers, and lets face it, this is the part everyone is kind of irritated at, but everyone will get over it. The worst thing that could happen for X-Wing is for the developers to just shut it down. The first thing that would die overnight is the entire event/tournament scene as people abandon the game in mass looking for greener pastures which is effectively the same thing that would happen if they released a bad second edition, but at least with a second edition there is a chance they will get it right and revitalize the community and the game. To claim that there is some benefit to a game going out of print is just plainly silly, its all bad, always, there is literally nothing positive that comes out of it.