hey guys,

now I'm not here to argue the costs of conversion kits...again, because they are a still a significant investment (even if comparisons to GW are so off base that it's actually concerning). Rather, I'm here to drive home why FFG felt the need to re-design all their cards and base templates for 2.0. (i.e WHY we need to convert our stuff to play 2.0, or why FFG felt the need to make our stuff "obsolete")

of course, all this info is available in the current preview articles, but given some are still convinced that 2.0 is just a re-skin of 1.0 instead of a complete balance overhaul. Basically, I will try to summarize why 2.0 is an entirely different game, because some seem unable to look past the surface.

1.) A lot of pilots have different abilities that would be a pain in the *** to errata. Obvious.

2.) So far, Card-bloat seems to have been removed from the game. The Advance sports a modified version its TWO "fix" cards (x1 and ATC) right in the same pilot card. The Phantom has been "fixed" by rolling Stygium instead of ACD into the base card, hopefully lessening its crippling dependency on shooting before the enemy

3.) Action chaining and red actions (TIE Advance, FOCUS --> Barrel-roll). This change is largely to avoid the pitfall of Push the Limit, which lead to problematic situations where you could token stack enemy ships into uselessness (especially 2-die primaries).

Specific action chaining also serves to further distinguish ships. Your double action vader will still be a sprightly fellow, but he won't be able to dance like an interceptor without limited-use afterburners

Red actions by themselves simply add variety to what the designers are able to do to differentiate ships from one another.

coupled with the apparent removal of cards such as engine upgrade, ships should prove to be highly distinguished from one another. For example, EU will no longer turn the Decimator into a **** falcon. It is now its own class of vessel, a (hopefully) reinforced mighty tank of a ship that can live up to its bad-*** appearance.

speaking of reinforce,

4.) redesigned bases

standardized quadrants and arcs on all bases allow designers to implement actions like Reinforce or bullseye-only related abilities on more ships than just the Auzzie and Kimoglia. It also finally turns turrets into what they should have always been (mobile arcs!)

this continues the theme of opening up design space by allowing special actions on ships that would never have been able to perform them otherwise

5.) New Dials

self explanatory. even if some ship dials remained the same (fighter and fang fighter), there have already been many changes revealed for 3 iconic ships and 1 minor change to the Y-wing.

kinda hard to underscore how new dials will change gameplay as dials are kind of determines how ships play in the first place

6.) the dreaded App

Apart from the ease of erratas, the app serves as a crucial balancing tool by allowing FFG to easily scale upgrade costs according to ship-type and (presumably) pilot initiative

any x-wing 1.0 veteran should be able to tell why EU on a ps 2 Advance wasn't worth 4 points, or why Vader loved the dang thing at 4 points, or just how badly it broke several large base ships for a pittance of four points.

ships and pilots were not created equally, and scaling upgrade costs allows us to maintain balance between plucky generics and the far superior unique pilots that can squeeze so much more value out of their new toys

"Points will adjust based on the type of game that you are playing, and the cost of a card could vary under very specific criteria. For example, an upgrade card may cost more for one ship to equip than another ship. The X-Wing squad builder app will also track which upgrades a ship is allowed to equip at any given time. "

7.) TL;DR

it is VERY difficult to begin to illustrate just how much X-wing changes with all the additions made to 2.0, and that's not even getting into the force mechanic and the slew of new upgrades that will use it as a resource, nor how the Charge mechanic keeps before abilities such as shield regeneration or action-independent boosts under control.

by redesigning all this cardboard, FFG has basically turned the game on its head. They have introduced variety and new playstyles by differentiating ships in ways that were simply not possible given the constraints of 1.0. Even if your TIE fighter looks the same, it is entering a world where Kylo bearing decimators won't twinkle-toe across the table like a spooked fawn, or where its X-wing counterpart won't be a mere target might as well be stationary for all the maneuverability it had in 1.0

Despite the very similar core rules, we will be entering a vastly different world of "Tactical space combat"

You can certainly point out that the cost of conversion is significant (and it IS). You cannot with a straight face claim it wasn't necessary to create a vastly different X-wing from the one we now know

So true. We are getting a new and improved experience that cost FFG thousands of man-hours so I am excited.

One of the devs said they spent most of the last year working this. How many tabletop games have the room to spend that much time from paid staff on a single game?

No clue, but I know none of the Warhammer edition changes even APPROACHED this level of overhaul, except AOS which just kinda ****** everyone

Even privateer press, bless their reasonable hearts, didn't change mk2 that much going into mk3

But unlike GW, they charged accordingly

Has anyone else noticed all those pilots in the top spread are ps5 and are much higher in v1? Can it be the ps war is over and there may be only a very small handful of pilots that are ps9? Sister Mary Francis that is going to be awesome that an ace is an ace for a reason again.

8 minutes ago, LordFajubi said:

Has anyone else noticed all those pilots in the top spread are ps5 and are much higher in v1? Can it be the ps war is over and there may be only a very small handful of pilots that are ps9? Sister Mary Francis that is going to be awesome that an ace is an ace for a reason again.

ps 9 is now initiative 6

seems all he usual suspects have migrated to the appropriate ps, but all the 7s (norra) and 8s (luke) seem to have been squished in initiative 5

7 minutes ago, LordFajubi said:

Has anyone else noticed all those pilots in the top spread are ps5 and are much higher in v1? Can it be the ps war is over and there may be only a very small handful of pilots that are ps9? Sister Mary Francis that is going to be awesome that an ace is an ace for a reason again.

There are no pilots at PS9.

PS is now called Initiative, and it scales 1-6. No VI, no Adaptability.

btw, I definitely believe ps wars will still be a thing

but the increased cost of high ps pilots and the scaling costs of upgrades will prevent you from running high ps spam, and thereby give lower ps a much better chance (in addition to stuff like action and barrel-roll limitations)

good example is one of the lists for worlds streams was Luke + Wedge + gold vet, as opposed to the Luke + Wedge + Wes with a LOT of points left over we can get once Saw's hits 1.0

the other stream list was Vader + 4 black cracks. On team cov, it was Feroph + Steele+ 3 blackcracks

so Vader + Blackcrack = Steele + Feroph (heavily, if horribly, upgraded)

should give an idea of how expensive vader is

20 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

btw, I definitely believe ps wars will still be a thing

but the increased cost of high ps pilots and the scaling costs of upgrades will prevent you from running high ps spam, and thereby give lower ps a much better chance (in addition to stuff like action and barrel-roll limitations)

good example is one of the lists for worlds streams was Luke + Wedge + gold vet, as opposed to the Luke + Wedge + Wes with a LOT of points left over we can get once Saw's hits 1.0

If it's accurate that the higher initiative pilots can cost as much as double the cost of a generic, then that's going to be an interesting choice to make - do you get the higher initiative and the special ability, or do you get more ships?

In 1.0, that wasn't really the choice. The difference between a Rookie Pilot and Wedge in 1.0 is 8 points. Soontir Fel is 9 points more expensive than the cheapest interceptor. You can't even fit in an Academy Pilot for that kind of difference, so why wouldn't you always go for the highest PS pilot?

If the top initiative pilot in 2.0 is twice that of the lowest, that will have a huge impact on potential initiative wars. Especially combined with the developers clearly taking aim at reducing action efficiency in 2.0.

I regretted what I wrote.

The app does not cover the new dials nor bases

nor does it provide physical cards to easily reference unless you fancy unlocking and handing your phone to your opponent every round or so

1 hour ago, ficklegreendice said:

btw, I definitely believe ps wars will still be a thing

but the increased cost of high ps pilots and the scaling costs of upgrades will prevent you from running high ps spam, and thereby give lower ps a much better chance (in addition to stuff like action and barrel-roll limitations)

good example is one of the lists for worlds streams was Luke + Wedge + gold vet, as opposed to the Luke + Wedge + Wes with a LOT of points left over we can get once Saw's hits 1.0

the other stream list was Vader + 4 black cracks. On team cov, it was Feroph + Steele+ 3 blackcracks

so Vader + Blackcrack = Steele + Feroph (heavily, if horribly, upgraded)

should give an idea of how expensive vader is

Keep in mind that "horribly upgraded" is actually cheaper this edition.

3 minutes ago, Rakaydos said:

Keep in mind that "horribly upgraded" is actually cheaper this edition.

not necessarily, since we don't know what the costs are

the "horrible" part is absolutely certain, though

Finally, a sensible thread. X-Wing 2nd Edition is looking to be a much different, better game, not just a re-skin.

In regards to the conversion kits, I believe they did a good job. Players with many 1st Edition ships will get a good deal out of the conversion kits, and players with few 1st Edition ships (me) will probably just skip the conversion kits altogether and buy the new 2nd Edition ships. The updated models look great too.

Someone else brought this to my attention, but the conversion kits are so good of a deal that it is actually cheaper to buy the 1st Edition ships and the conversion kits rather than just buying the same amount of the 2nd Edition ships.

depends on the ships, but yes

I think it was something like 12 small ships ($15 in 1.0)

12 * $15= $180, +$50 kit = $230

meanwhile 12 2.0 ships ($20 ea) would go for $240

course you gotta hash out a different combination of small ships for the kits, while the 2.0 ships will only include X/Y, TIE/advance, fang

no idea how much other ships will cost, other than the spray costing the same as it did but it's been moved to a smaller base

1 hour ago, ficklegreendice said:

btw, I definitely believe ps wars will still be a thing

but the increased cost of high ps pilots and the scaling costs of upgrades will prevent you from running high ps spam, and thereby give lower ps a much better chance (in addition to stuff like action and barrel-roll limitations)

good example is one of the lists for worlds streams was Luke + Wedge + gold vet, as opposed to the Luke + Wedge + Wes with a LOT of points left over we can get once Saw's hits 1.0

the other stream list was Vader + 4 black cracks. On team cov, it was Feroph + Steele+ 3 blackcracks

so Vader + Blackcrack = Steele + Feroph (heavily, if horribly, upgraded)

should give an idea of how expensive vader is

I think it was mentioned Vader is like 84 points now. So in Standard play he takes up roughly 1/3rd of your list as usual.

Haven’t we talked for YEARS that the changes people really wanted could only work with a total reworking of the game from the ground up. Basically we’ve been calling for 2.0 for at least the last 2 years, maybe even from the time of the second core set. Now that it’s here everyone is getting buyers remorse for exactly what we wanted. Awesome.

still have to trade/buy 2 more GUNBOAT kits.

I’m ready. Buying everything at once is a little sticker-shocking, but for me it is equivalent to backing a new Kickstarter, to get an improved Star Wars dogfighting game. It seems worth it. <shrug>

44 minutes ago, FlyingAnchors said:

I think it was mentioned Vader is like 84 points now. So in Standard play he takes up roughly 1/3rd of your list as usual.

That's naked Vader, without upgrades. He is definitely going to be almost half your squad. He is going to be a monster.

46 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

depends on the ships, but yes

I think it was something like 12 small ships ($15 in 1.0)

12 * $15= $180, +$50 kit = $230

meanwhile 12 2.0 ships ($20 ea) would go for $240

course you gotta hash out a different combination of small ships for the kits, while the 2.0 ships will only include X/Y, TIE/advance, fang

no idea how much other ships will cost, other than the spray costing the same as it did but it's been moved to a smaller base

10 small ships would break even $200 either way), once you hit 11 it’s cheaper to buy 1.0, Assuming as you said you buy a set that matches with what the kit has. If you’re buying 4 ywings, or 4 tie advanced, etc then it’s a different story

44 minutes ago, FlyingAnchors said:

I think it was mentioned Vader is like 84 points now. So in Standard play he takes up roughly 1/3rd of your list as usual.

That’s over 40% of your list. And it’s before upgrades

34 minutes ago, Sithborg said:

That's naked Vader, without upgrades. He is definitely going to be almost half your squad. He is going to be a monster.

Well, does he even need upgrades now? Built in ATC and he still gets his multiple Actions via force charges.

3 hours ago, ficklegreendice said:

btw, I definitely believe ps wars will still be a thing

but the increased cost of high ps pilots and the scaling costs of upgrades will prevent you from running high ps spam, and thereby give lower ps a much better chance (in addition to stuff like action and barrel-roll limitations)

good example is one of the lists for worlds streams was Luke + Wedge + gold vet, as opposed to the Luke + Wedge + Wes with a LOT of points left over we can get once Saw's hits 1.0

the other stream list was Vader + 4 black cracks. On team cov, it was Feroph + Steele+ 3 blackcracks

so Vader + Blackcrack = Steele + Feroph (heavily, if horribly, upgraded)

should give an idea of how expensive vader is

I don’t think the low end or high end of PS really gets affected much by the compression. It’s all the awkward values in the middle that were either taken for a pilot ability, EPT slot, or just to have a higher PS than some of the lower PS ships that were common. Often times that left you with a squad full of ships scattered across a few different PS values lockig you into a particular activation order.

With less different PS values in the middle you are more likely to end up with multiple ships at the same PS.

16 minutes ago, FlyingAnchors said:

Well, does he even need upgrades now? Built in ATC and he still gets his multiple Actions via force charges.

well there's that sweet after-burners card

wouldn't want to see that on a two-armed, two-legged Vader

Thank you for saying this as a pro-2er.

Right now, no one but the wizard behind the curtain knows how to play this game. You might think you do, but you don't.

It is another consideration for some in Making the Jump.

OTOH, everyone's a noob again, playing their 1st game of x-wing.

indeed, no one knows

we only know that the core mechanics are similar,

that the material in the conversion kit is lends itself to a massive amount of potential variety and additional design space,

and that the new stuff is therefore absolutely necessary to grow the game in any meaningful direction