On 5/4/2018 at 10:02 PM, RampancyTW said:

A few things here:

FFG has literally zero obligation to support tournament play. That they do is a nice bonus, but they have no obligation to.

FFG has literally no duty to do anything other than what they've done up to this point, which is create miniatures and cards for you to play with. Their obligation to you begins and ends with this. They deliver what is advertised.

FFG is not forcing you to buy into 2.0. If you have no issues with X-Wing 1.0 between you and your friends, keep playing it! If there is no reason for you to upgrade, just don't upgrade! Is it really that hard? 2.0 apparently doesn't affect you, and has no impact on the products you already have, so don't buy it! Ta-daaaa!

FFG had no obligation to allow any cross-over between 1.0 and 2.0. The fact that I can fly all of my previous Imperial and Rebel purchases (with a few I'll need to borrow or buy on the secondary market) for the cost of a wave of X-Wing is a pretttty good deal. They didn't have to do that. Other miniatures games don't always do that. It's pretty cool that they did that.

The sense of entitlement amongst gamers in general is crazy. I don't think I'll ever fully understand it. Video games, board games, whatever. Doesn't matter. The same sense of entitlement is incredibly pervasive in all forms of it.

I wanted to like this twice, but I can't so I'll just quote it instead.

Just now, Bulwyf said:

Your post does not make any sense. Let's say you have 10,000 models in 40k in one faction. You just need the rulebook (or download the rules for free) and your army book. That one time cost lets you play 10,000 models in your one faction. How much would that cost you for one faction in X-wing 2.0? Quite a bit more than one rule book (or free rules) and one army book.

Actually with free rules you could get into two factions in 40k with just having to buy two army books for under $90.00. Can you say that about X-wing 2.0?

There's no comparison between which is cheaper to convert. 40k is clearly cheaper especially if you have multiple factions in 2.0 you have to convert. And that doesn't even take into account how many extra conversion kits you have to purchase.

Now you know how I feel about your posts. You still don't get that comparing converting one faction to convert three is incredibly disingenuous. If you can't see that, then I would like to thank you for you time and part ways.

1 minute ago, Bulwyf said:

Your post does not make any sense. Let's say you have 10,000 models in 40k in one faction. You just need the rulebook (or download the rules for free) and your army book. That one time cost lets you play 10,000 models in your one faction. How much would that cost you for one faction in X-wing 2.0? Quite a bit more than one rule book (or free rules) and one army book.

Actually with free rules you could get into two factions in 40k with just having to buy two army books for under $90.00. Can you say that about X-wing 2.0?

There's no comparison between which is cheaper to convert. 40k is clearly cheaper especially if you have multiple factions in 2.0 you have to convert. And that doesn't even take into account how many extra conversion kits you have to purchase.

Comparing the upgrade cost of Warhammer vs X-Wing is pointless, due to the differences between the two systems. The upgrade cost does not scale with the number of models in 40k, but it does in X-Wing. People with small collection will find that converting X-Wing is cheaper. If you have many models, 40k is cheaper.

10 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

Now you know how I feel about your posts. You still don't get that comparing converting one faction to convert three is incredibly disingenuous. If you can't see that, then I would like to thank you for you time and part ways.

And your posts ignoring total amount of models involved in just one faction is beyond incredibly disingenuous for both games. You can't even answer one honest question I put forth. Which is cheaper, converting 10,000 models in one faction in 40k or 10,000 models in one faction in X-wing?

Converting just one faction in each game is cheaper in 40k than it is in 2.0. I don't even know how you can say otherwise with a straight face.

2 hours ago, Astech said:

They're features of game components, like wool being wool in Catan.

but I don't recall you complaining about the enormous FAQ very much, either.

Fair and you should search my post history.

I hated the FAQ because it was supplemental documentation, and now i feel like 2.0 has supplemental documentation baked in. ?

4 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

Fair and you should search my post history.

I hated the FAQ because it was supplemental documentation, and now i feel like 2.0 has supplemental documentation baked in. ?

Not at 4.5 k posts so far... * shudders*

Still, this kind of supplemental documentation is entirely different. You're looking at something that will never come up in-game, so playtime is unaffected (unlike the FAQ). It's also integrated into every squad builder available for the game, so the info's in a very handy place for 99% of the population. If you compare it to the alternative of inevitable incorrect point costs/upgrade bars on cards then it's a far better alternative.

19 minutes ago, Astech said:

Not at 4.5 k posts so far... * shudders*

Still, this kind of supplemental documentation is entirely different. You're looking at something that will never come up in-game, so playtime is unaffected (unlike the FAQ). It's also integrated into every squad builder available for the game, so the info's in a very handy place for 99% of the population. If you compare it to the alternative of inevitable incorrect point costs/upgrade bars on cards then it's a far better alternative.

I get the points.

I can't believe they left off upgrade bars. If you screwed up the upgrade bar, I think that's a bad sign. Very bad.

3 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

I get the points.

I can't believe they left off upgrade bars. If you screwed up the upgrade bar, I think that's a bad sign. Very bad.

I think it's so they have the opportunity to add things later, for buffs or to shake up the meta. Again, you'd only look at it in squad building, and 99% of people use an online builder.

4 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

Yeah, you can change the context and make me wrong.

A. You can't play the game without building a squad, so the data is still important.

B. The post to which I responded was about all the rules being on the cards. Points costs and upgrades slots are part of the rules. They are not on the cards anymore. They are thus omitted.

That information will be on a free PDF so if you REALLY want to stick to paper you can. Or in the case that FFG ever loses the Star Wars license the information will always be available even without the squad builder.

1 hour ago, Bulwyf said:

And your posts ignoring total amount of models involved in just one faction is beyond incredibly disingenuous for both games. You can't even answer one honest question I put forth. Which is cheaper, converting 10,000 models in one faction in 40k or 10,000 models in one faction in X-wing?

Converting just one faction in each game is cheaper in 40k than it is in 2.0. I don't even know how you can say otherwise with a straight face.

Because it is? It actually has been more expensive to convert to 40k for one faction for me, by a lot. I've spent almost $200 on the conversion (including things like datacards, the extra codex that came out when the new edition was published, new rulebook, and new codex). At most, to convert my 2.0 Xwing faction, it will be $130. If the First Order is cheaper as they say it will be, I still won't have reached that $200 mark and I'll have converted two factions (with two conversion sets for each). Admittedly, I don't think that will cover all of my ships (though it will be close -- I love interceptors and have 8 of them, and I may have a couple of extra tie fighters), it will cover everything else if I wanted to field it at the same time if I wanted to do that.

One reason people continue to try and bring you around is because it sounds like you are converting to 2.0 for a collection that is actually two players' worth. How many upgrade kits do you need per faction?

I love the notion that people with large collections are doing it wrong and deserve to be penalised. You need more than one kit? Well, you clearly have too much stuff!

Yeah, **** me for having more than two X Wings, right?

Just now, Chucknuckle said:

I love the notion that people with large collections are doing it wrong and deserve to be penalised. You need more than one kit? Well, you clearly have too much stuff!

Yeah, **** me for having more than two X Wings, right?

Not sure where you read that.

How do you suggest to remedy this without making it worse for people with smaller collections? Stipulation, if you increase the size of the pack, the pack price must go up.

8 minutes ago, Chucknuckle said:

I love the notion that people with large collections are doing it wrong and deserve to be penalised. You need more than one kit? Well, you clearly have too much stuff!

Yeah, **** me for having more than two X Wings, right?

... Kinda? Like, you've likely spent thousands of dollars with diminishing returns on every purchase. You're clearly not very concerned about the cost-enjoyment ratio of your purchases, so it's hypocritical to complain about relatively cheap, massively fun kits.

Actually, you're fine no matter what. If you get Saw's Renegades, one Rebel kit and one new core Set you've got the material for four X-wings, which is likely going to be the maximum fieldable amount. The same goes for numerous other ships.

7 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

Not sure where you read that.

How do you suggest to remedy this without making it worse for people with smaller collections? Stipulation, if you increase the size of the pack, the pack price must go up.

In an ideal world they would release separate faction books like a 40k codex. So you only ever need one, no matter the size of your collection, for the lifetime of the edition.

As a more realistic alternative, I'd like to see the kits split into small base kits and large base kits. Give people some more options instead of "here's the conversion kit, like it or lump it". If I could buy three small base kits and a large base kit, I'd feel better about things (assuming the kits were cheaper due to reduced content and increased volume of sales).

As it is, I'm not even considering upgrading my collection with official FFG parts. It's just way too much.

5 minutes ago, Astech said:

... Kinda? Like, you've likely spent thousands of dollars with diminishing returns on every purchase. You're clearly not very concerned about the cost-enjoyment ratio of your purchases, so it's hypocritical to complain about relatively cheap, massively fun kits.

Actually, you're fine no matter what. If you get Saw's Renegades, one Rebel kit and one new core Set you've got the material for four X-wings, which is likely going to be the maximum fieldable amount. The same goes for numerous other ships.

Oh, so I have to feel good about having my collection held to ransom just because I already paid for it? There's some serious Stockholm syndrome going on here.

Sure, I can get Saws Renegades, a new core and a conversion kit. Now I've got TEN x wings, but despite paying $130 six of them are still locked and unusable.

Why on earth would I feel good about that?

7 minutes ago, Chucknuckle said:

Oh, so I have to feel good about having my collection held to ransom just because I already paid for it? There's some serious Stockholm syndrome going on here.

Sure, I can get Saws Renegades, a new core and a conversion kit. Now I've got TEN x wings, but despite paying $130 six of them are still locked and unusable.

Why on earth would I feel good about that?

Stockholm syndrome? Really? You don't have to feel good about it, but raging about the inconsequential cost of buying new - and actually good, for once - content for a game.

So you have 8 X-wings already. did you ever consider the last 4 were ill-advised purchases? If you did the math you'd realise you only pay maybe $1.5 per ship for tournament play conversion, which is a great deal.

Maybe you thought you'd use them regularly in non-sanctioned, non-tournament play? In that case you do have enough components for all of them. Between all the packs you've got bases for 8 generics at a minimum, and all the aces. Squadron printouts eliminate the need for duplicate upgrade cards. You can do this for nearly any ship in the game to get the necessary components for non-tournament formats.

11 minutes ago, Chucknuckle said:

As a more realistic alternative, I'd like to see the kits split into small base kits and large base kits. Give people some more options instead of "here's the conversion kit, like it or lump it". If I could buy three small base kits and a large base kit, I'd feel better about things (assuming the kits were cheaper due to reduced content and increased volume of sales).

see, as reasonable as this seems, you will get the exact same complaints as currently

"oh, now I need to buy two kits to convert my collection?"

"Doesn't everyone have small/large bases? cash grab!"

"this still doesn't cover my [insert ship here] spam list!"

there's literally nothing FFG could do to improve the transition short of 1.) lower kit price or 2.) include damage deck + templates

and people would still complain for having to spend any kind of money to update

26 minutes ago, Chucknuckle said:

In an ideal world they would release separate faction books like a 40k codex. So you only ever need one, no matter the size of your collection, for the lifetime of the edition.

As a more realistic alternative, I'd like to see the kits split into small b

But that doesn’t work as many of the components you need are physical, like dials, tokens, bases, damage deck, and upgrades. To convert it to a codex system, you would still need to overhaul the entire system to convert all some of those physical things to enact the desired changes. Which brings us around to the same problem again, because how do you get those new bases for the codex to influence? Converter kits. Plus the added annoyance of using a book to tell you what your ship and upgrades do.

As for your more realistic option, it does have a certain appeal, but is likely to cause more harm than good. For example, cutting the contents of the converts by say half doesn’t equal half price. Boxes may be smaller, but now you must make two, and to make up for lost room in the split, you have to make both packs bigger than just half. This increases production and storage costs, which add up and are passed along to the customer. For simplicity sake, we’ll say this added cost is $0.05. But even that small bit means that to get the same amount as a current converter kit, you are paying more. And that’s still before tax. So, in the end, this kind of course of action would end up hurting people with larger collections.

Edit: this was written before I saw you edited your post. I’ll have an answer for the new ideas in a moment.

6 minutes ago, Astech said:

Stockholm syndrome? Really? You don't have to feel good about it, but raging about the inconsequential cost of buying new - and actually good, for once - content for a game.

So you have 8 X-wings already. did you ever consider the last 4 were ill-advised purchases? If you did the math you'd realise you only pay maybe $1.5 per ship for tournament play conversion, which is a great deal.

Maybe you thought you'd use them regularly in non-sanctioned, non-tournament play? In that case you do have enough components for all of them. Between all the packs you've got bases for 8 generics at a minimum, and all the aces. Squadron printouts eliminate the need for duplicate upgrade cards. You can do this for nearly any ship in the game to get the necessary components for non-tournament formats.

And here again is the "you didn't collect the game the right way, you deserve to pay more" attitude.

Yeah, I have a lot of X Wings. But surely most people already have more than two? And B Wings? Remember when BBBBZ was a thing? I'll happily admit I'm on the end of the bell curve when it comes to collections, especially in the demographic that frequents this forum, but it only takes three X Wings or Y Wings or B Wings to push people into the "I need at least two conversion kits per faction" bracket. Three Defenders? Was that third Defender as equally "ill advised"? I think a lot of people are going to need four kits just to get back up to speed.

13 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

see, as reasonable as this seems, you will get the exact same complaints as currently

"oh, now I need to buy two kits to convert my collection?"

"Doesn't everyone have small/large bases? cash grab!"

"this still doesn't cover my [insert ship here] spam list!"

there's literally nothing FFG could do to improve the transition short of 1.) lower kit price or 2.) include damage deck + templates

and people would still complain for having to spend any kind of money to update

I think most people are going to need at least two kits per faction anyway. At least this way the kits would be cheaper since there'd be less duplicate content.

It's a continuum. On one end FFG takes a loss on the conversion kits and gives them out for free. On the other they completely change the scale of the game and invalidate all 1.0 collections. You're never going to eliminate whiners, but the closer FFG gets to the "we're giving it away for free" end of the spectrum the more the whining dies off and the more strained and ridiculous it becomes.

I'll happily admit that FFG is sitting close to the middle of the spectrum, what I hate are self-righteous people on the forums telling us how trivial the cost is, or how it's good value for money, or how we should be grateful for the privilege of paying FFG hundreds of dollars to unlock our collections for 2.0.

It's not cheap, it's not a privilege, I don't consider it value for money, and it's one **** of a friction point for the average consumer. The sticker shock factor here is enormous, judging from the feedback across the internet, I'd say it's having more impact than FFG anticipated.

29 minutes ago, Chucknuckle said:

As a more realistic alternative, I'd like to see the kits split into small base kits and large base kits. Give people some more options instead of "here's the conversion kit, like it or lump it". If I could buy three small base kits and a large base kit, I'd feel better about things (assuming the kits were cheaper due to reduced content and increased volume of sales).

As it is, I'm not even considering upgrading my collection with official FFG parts. It's just way too much.

So much of the same problems that I pointed out above are present here. More varied products mean increases in manufacturing and storage costs. There is also the question of the new medium base. How would your system handle them? Also, as @ficklegreendice pointed out, you haven't actually solved the problem, you've simply rearranged it.

Now, I am sorry that the converters don't have enough value for you. It was bound to happen for some as it happens in all games that change editions, including 40K.

Idk, the reaction seems pretty normal of the internet

And definitely nowhere near the scale of the Age of Sigmar reboot that utterly demolished everything fantasy had been

Granted that one was far more justified

6 hours ago, NulEnvoid said:

So you chose to post misleading information to make your statement appear correct?

I'm sorry, but if you post information that's skewered expect it to be challenged and balanced.

Also, you chose current product as an example, so I'm not quite sure how the past now factors into it. Making your font big and shouting isn't going to make you any more right either. Especially when it doesn't relate to the actual posts in question.

lol #fakenews defense.

Prove it misleading other than calling me a liar.

2 hours ago, AlexW said:

Because it is? It actually has been more expensive to convert to 40k for one faction for me, by a lot. I've spent almost $200 on the conversion (including things like datacards, the extra codex that came out when the new edition was published, new rulebook, and new codex). At most, to convert my 2.0 Xwing faction, it will be $130. If the First Order is cheaper as they say it will be, I still won't have reached that $200 mark and I'll have converted two factions (with two conversion sets for each). Admittedly, I don't think that will cover all of my ships (though it will be close -- I love interceptors and have 8 of them, and I may have a couple of extra tie fighters), it will cover everything else if I wanted to field it at the same time if I wanted to do that.

One reason people continue to try and bring you around is because it sounds like you are converting to 2.0 for a collection that is actually two players' worth. How many upgrade kits do you need per faction?

I don't really need to be converted...I have zero issues with 2.0 or the need of it. I've seen the local tourney scene at my FLGS go down over the last two years especially. If this change will bring new life into the game then that's a great thing. I just hate how expensive it is for myself and others just to keep using the same ships you already have.

As for myself, I need two Rebels, two Imperial, one Scum and one First Order and one Resistance kit. Plus the new starter box. That is a lot of money just to replace what I already have for myself and my wife. For people with just one faction only and one conversion kit covers all their needs then I can understand their ambivalence at what others are going to have to deal with.

1 hour ago, ficklegreendice said:

Idk, the reaction seems pretty normal of the internet

And definitely nowhere near the scale of the Age of Sigmar reboot that utterly demolished everything fantasy had been

Granted that one was far more justified

That was the day the music died for me. I have literally thousands of dollars in Warhammer Fantasy Battles going back to the mid 1980's. All were ruined when GW destroyed the old world. I have almost every Black Library book published for both fantasy and 40k along with official GW lore books. Love the FFG Warhammer RPG. Played that like crazy. I can keep going but yes, that hurt.

When GW turned their back on their loyal customers by literally blowing up the world the game was set in only to come back months later with some crappy IP lawyer approved setting...I was out. I will never play Age of Sigmar. My fantasy armies literally do nothing but collect dust. I tried playing Kings of War from Mantic with them but it wasn't the same.

This change from 1.0 to 2.0 is like comparing a nose bleed to a sucking chest wound to what Warhammer fans had to deal with.

I happily switched over to Kings of War when WHFB died. It's a much better game, but suffers from having a smaller player base.

It's interesting though, that to convert 200+ models from WHFB to KoW only cost me $40...

Kings of War is definitely a better game. It is also cheaper by far than Age of Sigmar prices. I know it will sound silly perhaps but with all the years and memories I have invested in Warhammer Fantasy Battles I just can't find any fun in fantasy miniatures. If they ever change their mind and bring back the Old World then I'd be right back but until then...just can't do it. It also didn't help that when GW did that to fantasy it absolutely killed off the small active community at my FLGS.