I'm pretty sure that changing from a 7th edition 40k ruleset to 8th edition will set you back maybe $400 for codexes and other things. So unless your X-wing collection is enormous you're making an unfair comparison.

2 hours ago, madquest8 said:

FFG realise that they have screwed the game up by constantly introducing new rules, so decide to reboot the game with a new rules set. which unnecessarily changes lots of things in minor cosmetic ways... so they can charge all the customers in their game £200+

1 hour ago, MarekMandalore said:

I’ve commented on another thread that I don’t plan to convert. I honestly see no reason to. It would cost me nearly $200 to make it so that I can play with things that I can already play with, but in a SLIGHTLY different way. Or, I can play with my existing collection, as is, and spent the same $200 on other things.

Neither of you seem to understand the scope of the changes they've instituted. The absolute core of the game is the same - plan, move, action, shoot, reset, repeat, but everything else has changed for the better. Maybe your definition of fun is different to mine, but flying against Miranda, or Ghost/Fenn, or Dengaroo, or Paratanni or any other meta list is an awful experience.

With what's been spoiled on X-wing 2.0 so far, I believe it'll be by far the best minis game on the market at release - and for some time to come. Whether you buy in or not is your business, but FFG is creating a brilliant fix in the most affordable way possible.

If you were to, for instance, view 2.0 as an entirely new game, then you'd find it would be an excellent investment of $200 to get one of everything in the frst wave, except for conversion kits, of course.

It's going to cost about the same as updating to a new edition of a popular roleplaying game, like buying a dozen RPG books all in one go. And like a new edition of an RPG, we can still use our old minis and dice, but that's about it.

While I'm optimistic about second edition, these threads are pretty sad.

3 hours ago, ficklegreendice said:

Man just buying a Warhammer rulebook + updated codex ran for as much

Much more if you wanted hardcover

The backlash to X wing 2.0 is perhaps the biggest kneejerk, though 

2 hours ago, Max Teranous said:

Not even close. 8th ed 40k rules alone runs to over $1000 dollars so far (assuming you had all codexes in 7th and wanted to replace them all)

2 hours ago, T70 Driver said:

Yeah, I came to the conclusion that the OP, in their "20 years" of playing miniatures, had never touched either Warhammer Fantasy or 40,000. If they had they wouldn't have made the claim they did in their OP.

1 hour ago, Frostthorn said:

Yah I was about to say... did you never engage with Games Workshop?

2 minutes ago, Astech said:

I'm pretty sure that changing from a 7th edition 40k ruleset to 8th edition will set you back maybe $400 for codexes and other things. So unless your X-wing collection is enormous you're making an unfair comparison.

"You think this is bad? Well I know something EVEN WORSE!"

This isn't a particularly good defense of the new edition, especially when directed at people with cost aversions. I'm sure if 2nd Ed. has so many virtues (and I think it does) then you should use those to convince somebody the conversion kits are going to be worth their price instead of comparing them to a gaming institution that was almost universally hated.

3 hours ago, Kaptin Krunch said:

>complaining about the conversions

>2018

Meme arrows off chans is almost as embarrassing as admitting you use chans and know what meme arrows are.

3 hours ago, PanchoX1 said:

man, I love how all the complaining threads are from dummy accounts with super low post counts. HAHAHAHAHAHA.

PIE!!

While creating throwaway accounts to protect the integrity and reputation of your Asmodee Games Forum Handle is pretty suspect behaviour, dismissing people because of low post counts is quite possibly worse.

10 minutes ago, Astech said:

Neither of you seem to understand the scope of the changes they've instituted. The absolute core of the game is the same - plan, move, action, shoot, reset, repeat, but everything else has changed for the better. Maybe your definition of fun is different to mine, but flying against Miranda, or Ghost/Fenn, or Dengaroo, or Paratanni or any other meta list is an awful experience.

With what's been spoiled on X-wing 2.0 so far, I believe it'll be by far the best minis game on the market at release - and for some time to come. Whether you buy in or not is your business, but FFG is creating a brilliant fix in the most affordable way possible.

If you were to, for instance, view 2.0 as an entirely new game, then you'd find it would be an excellent investment of $200 to get one of everything in the frst wave, except for conversion kits, of course.

Quality post, even if I intensely disagree about the idea it'll be the best minis game available. I hugely agree with the idea of viewing it as a new game, especially as FFG isn't going to come by and demand you hand over the 1st Ed. materials. I'm going to take a wait-and-see approach before buying in, as it'll be $200+ for me to fully convert and I'm not sure the switch will be worth it as it doesn't address some of my biggest gripes with the game.

5 minutes ago, GHoooSTS said:

While I'm optimistic about second edition, these threads are pretty sad.

"You think this is bad? Well I know something EVEN WORSE!"

This isn't a particularly good defense of the new edition, especially when directed at people with cost aversions.

it's less about defending the new edition and more about dispelling a wildly false claim

i.e, the title of the thread

kinda hard to miss

6 minutes ago, GHoooSTS said:

While I'm optimistic about second edition, these threads are pretty sad.

"You think this is bad? Well I know something EVEN WORSE!"

This isn't a particularly good defense of the new edition, especially when directed at people with cost aversions. I'm sure if 2nd Ed. has so many virtues (and I think it does) then you should use those to convince somebody the conversion kits are going to be worth their price instead of comparing them to a gaming institution that was almost universally hated.

Do you know what is even more sad? When someone is commenting without reading the topic title and the opening post.

2 hours ago, Frostthorn said:

Yah I was about to say... did you never engage with Games Workshop?

Who in his right mind would based in the Games Workshop reputation?

11 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

it's less about defending the new edition and more about dispelling a wildly false claim

i.e, the title of the thread

kinda hard to miss

Sure, but kinda hard to miss is the general theme of the post, which is "WHY THE **** IS THIS SO EXPENSIVE", even when the answer clearly is "because you don't have any friends to trade and FFG wants to distract you from the 33% price increase new models. ?

I'm upgrading Imperials, Scum, and Rebels plus a new core set for about $150. What game has had a cheaper change from one edition to the next?

34 minutes ago, Astech said:

I'm pretty sure that changing from a 7th edition 40k ruleset to 8th edition will set you back maybe $400 for codexes and other things. So unless your X-wing collection is enormous you're making an unfair comparison.

Neither of you seem to understand the scope of the changes they've instituted. The absolute core of the game is the same - plan, move, action, shoot, reset, repeat, but everything else has changed for the better. Maybe your definition of fun is different to mine, but flying against Miranda, or Ghost/Fenn, or Dengaroo, or Paratanni or any other meta list is an awful experience.

With what's been spoiled on X-wing 2.0 so far, I believe it'll be by far the best minis game on the market at release - and for some time to come. Whether you buy in or not is your business, but FFG is creating a brilliant fix in the most affordable way possible.

If you were to, for instance, view 2.0 as an entirely new game, then you'd find it would be an excellent investment of $200 to get one of everything in the frst wave, except for conversion kits, of course.

You make a fine point. However, it’s actually a point I already understood at the time of making my post which you quoted. The level of change at my level of play will not be as great as at other levels. I don’t fly meta lists, and neither do my opponents. I’ve seriously never seen Paratanni on the table, nor Dengaroo or any of the rest. The small group I play with are casuals playing at my kitchen table.

To address the question of this thread, I think the cost of the upgrade is perfectly reasonable and actually very customer friendly- and the redesign is great, for those who have suffered the abuses of v.1.0. If you play at your LGS, or at cons- if you play competitively or if X-wing is your main hobby interest, v.2.0 should be a great thing.

Those of us who are content with 1.0 as is, however, don’t need to draw a hardline and throw fits as some have on this forum. Our 1.0 remains totally playable and fun, so long as we still have people to play with.

For the rest of you, may 2.0 address all of your grievances and keep you flying.

22 minutes ago, SEApocalypse said:

Sure, but kinda hard to miss is the general theme of the post, which is "WHY THE **** IS THIS SO EXPENSIVE", even when the answer clearly is "because you don't have any friends to trade and FFG wants to distract you from the 33% price increase new models. ?

if you want a general theme to shine through, you don't hide it behind some blatant hyperbole that also triggers some horrible PTSD flashbacks to one's time with what is widely regarded as the single worst miniature's company when it comes to business practices?

and yes, $90 minimum buy-in isn't cheap in a vacuum

for a miniatures game of this quality, though, it's really not that impressive. At all. I can take those $90 into another game and buy like two/three models or units, which get you nowhere near completing an army of playable size in warhammer or warmachine, let alone a vast array of different possible armies

It's also the cost you got to pay for, as mentioned prior, a new rulebook and updated codex (not for warmachine, privateer press is actually really cool!) and they're not even overhauling their game to nearly the extent that 2.0 does

unless we're talking about age of sigmar which just utterly destroyed fantasy by nuking the size of the game from GIANT ARMIES to skirmishes and forcing you to change all your square base models into round bases ala 40k...

yeah no, I'm just not seeing the tragedy here. Relatively speaking compared to miniatures games I have experienced, the buy-in is not that significant, and if you can't afford it but still want to play in 2.0 then you can take initiative as a functioning human being and at the very least get to downsizing your collection

only thing I feel you can reasonably want FFG to do is either knock off some $ off a kit, or to have them stuff in a set of maneuver templates and a deck that we have to buy the core set for. But then we're still going to get griping as to how these kits don't cover some peoples' absurdly massive collections, so eh

A few things here:

FFG has literally zero obligation to support tournament play. That they do is a nice bonus, but they have no obligation to.

FFG has literally no duty to do anything other than what they've done up to this point, which is create miniatures and cards for you to play with. Their obligation to you begins and ends with this. They deliver what is advertised.

FFG is not forcing you to buy into 2.0. If you have no issues with X-Wing 1.0 between you and your friends, keep playing it! If there is no reason for you to upgrade, just don't upgrade! Is it really that hard? 2.0 apparently doesn't affect you, and has no impact on the products you already have, so don't buy it! Ta-daaaa!

FFG had no obligation to allow any cross-over between 1.0 and 2.0. The fact that I can fly all of my previous Imperial and Rebel purchases (with a few I'll need to borrow or buy on the secondary market) for the cost of a wave of X-Wing is a pretttty good deal. They didn't have to do that. Other miniatures games don't always do that. It's pretty cool that they did that.

The sense of entitlement amongst gamers in general is crazy. I don't think I'll ever fully understand it. Video games, board games, whatever. Doesn't matter. The same sense of entitlement is incredibly pervasive in all forms of it.

4 hours ago, ficklegreendice said:

Man just buying a Warhammer rulebook + updated codex ran for as much

Much more if you wanted hardcover

The backlash to X wing 2.0 is perhaps the biggest kneejerk, though

I’ve not done any GW for a long time, but they really screwed people again and again in the 90s and early 2000s with scheduled game updates that often didn’t really fix a lot of things. It seemed clear to many players that they were updating for the sake of it as a cash grab. Often, many old models would get invalidated and new stuff would smash everything.

FFG is making it so I can choose to fly all my old stuff with new dials, balance, toys, etc. My only issue would be if they don’t profuce sufficient copies - that would suck.

With the amount of stuff you get in the boxes, if the game ends up now having MANY top level viable lists then this will be a worthwhile investment.

5 hours ago, GizmotronX5000 said:

If all this was was a rules change, sure. But it's not. Anecdote here, but I bought almost exclusively rebel, and 1 kit covers 90% of the ships I have. That's $50 to convert my ships and $40 for the new core set to convert my nearly $700 of ships. I would MUCH prefer this to the constant slow drip of ship fix re-releases.

you lucked out. i bought all 3 factions so my wife and friends could play in the house board game nights. we all like to fly 3-4 ship squads of the same type of ships, sometimes full swarms.

so suddenly i need to spend $350 to update, and thats if i dont update first order and resistance(of which i only have the TFA core set) fyi thats $350 to update an $1100 collection, so 30% down just to use what I already have

1 hour ago, ficklegreendice said:

and yes, $90 minimum buy-in isn't cheap in a vacuum

for a miniatures game of this quality, though, it's really not that impressive. At all. I can take those $90 into another game and buy like two/three models or units, which get you nowhere near completing an army of playable size in warhammer or warmachine, let alone a vast array of different possible armies

Great post! The trick here is that X-wngs in the near-unique spot of being a bridge between board game and miniature gaming, where almost all players begin playing with the thought that the core set will be a fantastic stand-alone addition to their boardgame collection, not their miniatures collection.

As such, the $90 tag is quite high for a lot of off-the-shelf board games, excluding big-box releases which have their own unique appeal.

7 minutes ago, Vontoothskie said:

you lucked out. i bought all 3 factions so my wife and friends could play in the house board game nights. we all like to fly 3-4 ship squads of the same type of ships, sometimes full swarms.

so suddenly i need to spend $350 to update, and thats if i dont update first order and resistance(of which i only have the TFA core set) fyi thats $350 to update an $1100 collection, so 30% down just to use what I already have

You're luckier than most! Since you bought the game primarily to play with friends and family you've no need whatsoever to transfer to 2.0 for years to come. You say "need" like you've got an obsession here. Take a breath, and realise that the only reasons to convert is if you don't like the tournament scene or the fundamental game mechanics. It seems you're staying away from meta lists given you're flying 3-4 ships at home, and you wouldn't have invested so heavily if you didn't actually like the game.

Myself, on the other hand, almost exclusively play in tournaments and in preparation for tournaments, so to keep that up I'd have to convert.

3 hours ago, madquest8 said:

The alternative is for FFG not to screw over their customer base and think they can get away with it. Will the new players joining the hobby exceed the old ones leaving it? Only time will tell I guess... and support from a few play testers and FFG employees isn't going to help them.

The idea that they could have just sold the conversion kits for cheaper is a pipe dream born of not having any knowledge of how businesses work, nor of how close most gaming companies are to going bankrupt all the time (yes, including most of the big names in the industry; Some of us remember that Wizards of the Coast didn't always own D&D. And WotC mostly survived due to getting bought by Hasbro).

Look, I don't like the idea of having to pay $50 per kit in order to keep using my miniatures, but I also recognize that the game really needed 2.0 to keep going. If it's too much for you - well, you won't be able to play in tournaments, but beyond that, you don't have to pay it. You can either just play with 1.0 rules and cards at home with your friends, or you can just stop playing altogether. At least FFG is providing some means for you to keep playing with all your ships.

I remember when Magic: The Gathering first instituted expansion retirement back in 1995. All at once, the majority of my collection became ineligible for most tournament play (Type I tournaments, which they now call Legacy or Vintage, were not something that they planned on doing very often at that time, and they publicly stated that at the time). So I understand the feeling. I got out of MtG at that time because of retirement (also because I was starting college, so no longer had time or money to spend on a hobby that required regular infusions of cash....). Ultimately, though, MtG is still going strong. It was the right move for the game, because it allowed them to change things for the better and make it easier for new players to get into the game. I did eventually get back into the game - 16 years later. I didn't even know where my old cards were, so I had to build a whole new collection up from scratch. So, hey, if it's too expensive for you now, take a step away. Things can change. If you miss it, you'll have opportunities to get back in again later.

The sheer number of "nerf this, errata that, fix all these old ships" threads showed that they needed to go the 2.0 route. Once they decided to go down that route, there was no financially viable option for FFG to take that wasn't going to upset some number of players. Especially those that already have large collections to convert. I actually think they chose a route that provides the least amount of pain for the greatest number of people. Far from a cash grab, though, this is likely to lose a number of veteran players in the short term. FFG is gambling that they can gain more new players (and eventually attract back the veterans) in the long-run.

I’m much happier to pay $50 to get the full array of updated stuff for a faction and have a more balanced game than spend $60+ on an epic ship I don’t want to use in order to get a few cool pilot cards and upgrades. Hope they never do that again.

3 hours ago, Hobojebus said:

Never played warhammer have you.

Yeah, I have to say that justification is getting old.

"I let Warhammer screw me 8 times before I joined X-wing."

"Don't be a baby. You'll get used to it."

It ain't my experience. And comparing this change to a game you left as "An acceptable left of screwing" isn't making me feel better.

Watching people lose their minds over an inconvenient but ultimately good change with what is clearly a good-faith effort to minimize the imposition, within the bounds of still being a for-profit company rather than a charity of course, really is interesting. In a very strange and superficial way, it's like a decontextualized microcosm of the dumpster-fire that was 2016 and is pretty **** enlightening. So please, keep these posts up. I'm learning a lot.

You can spend about $125 for a faction in the new Warhammer 40k (Main rulebook, codex, and data card). I can only imagine people spending thousands if they thought that they had to buy almost new release aside from the rules and then the comparison falls apart. Paizo and Pathfinder is probably a better comparison right now.

Unless FFG really wants you to also buy every ship again for new pilots and upgrades*. For a larger price tag ($20 for an X-wing and other smalls). It wouldn't really make much business sense to release the conversion kits and bank on just new players alone. X Wing wouldn't really be sustainable with that model.

That larger price tag for smaller ships is just awful. Now that is a GW thing!

* -After Wave 1

1 minute ago, PenguinBonaparte said:

Watching people lose their minds over an inconvenient but ultimately good change with what is clearly a good-faith effort to minimize the imposition, within the bounds of still being a for-profit company rather than a charity of course, really is interesting. In a very strange and superficial way, it's like a decontextualized microcosm of the dumpster-fire that was 2016 and is pretty **** enlightening. So please, keep these posts up. I'm learning a lot.

You could say that same thing about people blindly accepting a re-issue of an older product without questioning anything. Oh wait, this is Star Wars! Of course we do! People ate up the Special Editions, constant re-releases, and The Force Awakens. Consumerism!

I don't blame FFG for wanting to fix some problems and make loads of money. I just blame people mindlessly buying into it.

I guess I've seen a lot of individuals at a company working hard to curate a product that they obviously care about, unless they're master dissemblers in their interviews.

On the other hand, I also bought in hard to Star Trek Attack Wing when it came out because I love Star Trek. That company constantly cut corners on every possible thing and treated its customers like the enemy, actively avoiding them at all costs. They had knee-jerk reactions to bad publicity, made careless rulings, contradicted themselves time and time again, and had really cynical cash grabs that even led to people getting trampled at GenCon.

When they finally decided to overhaul the game they made some improvements, but did not go to these lengths. They decided to keep everything prior legal, but re-costed everything in a way that actually made all the old content that "you can still play" functionally obsolete and even had the effect of *reducing* the amount of stuff you could effectively fly in the game. They re-released their core set and some faction packs in a way that ended up costing just as much as this if you wanted to fly something viable, and then immediately added in more game-killing and ill-considered cards almost within a couple months. (There's now a card in the game that can potentially blow up a ship in turn 0). I finally checked out after so many bad play experiences even my love of Star Trek and really nice guys in the group couldn't cover over.

If you want just one example, we were all super excited when they released a giant Borg Cube, but it was costed in a way that made it virtually unplayable. MSRP $100 for something far less detailed than an X-wing model. They never responded publicly to a single comment but did release a "Borg Cube" fix in the form of another $100 cube, and NEVER re-costed or errata-ed the original card. The thing is still worthless.

This isn't a case of being less screwed. It's a fundamental difference in company approach.

Okay.

To all of you guys saying that you HAVE to upgrade... No. You don't. And you know what? FFG is not obligated to continue the game you like, in the way you like it, for all eternity. You can still use everything you have. None of your previous purchases are invalidated.

The majority of players will move on. You will not. Stay behind, and play the game you want. Be THAT guy in the FLGS. Gloat over the newfags who play the disgusting new edition... It will fill your life with whatever sour simulacrum of happiness you are capable of.

You are not doing a service here... You are not opening the eyes of anyone. All you do is whine, signalling your inability to cope with changes. You are not the enlightened prophet who sees the truth... You are the old guy shouting 'Git off my lawn'.

You are not needed here. Times change... Let the past die.

56 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

Yeah, I have to say that justification is getting old.

"I let Warhammer screw me 8 times before I joined X-wing."

"Don't be a baby. You'll get used to it."

It ain't my experience. And comparing this change to a game you left as "An acceptable left of screwing" isn't making me feel better.

Oh ffs, grow up.

1 hour ago, Astech said:

Great post! The trick here is that X-wngs in the near-unique spot of being a bridge between board game and miniature gaming, where almost all players begin playing with the thought that the core set will be a fantastic stand-alone addition to their boardgame collection, not their miniatures collection.

As such, the $90 tag is quite high for a lot of off-the-shelf board games, excluding big-box releases which have their own unique appeal.

You're luckier than most! Since you bought the game primarily to play with friends and family you've no need whatsoever to transfer to 2.0 for years to come. You say "need" like you've got an obsession here. Take a breath, and realise that the only reasons to convert is if you don't like the tournament scene or the fundamental game mechanics. It seems you're staying away from meta lists given you're flying 3-4 ships at home, and you wouldn't have invested so heavily if you didn't actually like the game.

Myself, on the other hand, almost exclusively play in tournaments and in preparation for tournaments, so to keep that up I'd have to convert.

no one ever NEEDS to buy anything except food and medecine, but unfortunately i dont only play with the people in my household. its hard enough to get people at the local flgs to play now, but if I show up with an outdated game setup and insist they dont use their cool new stuff, then they wont play at all. although honestly the way things have been this 2.0 expense might kill the local scene entirely. people were already annoyed with FFG, so we'll see how it goes

7 hours ago, ficklegreendice said:

Man just buying a Warhammer rulebook + updated codex ran for as much

Much more if you wanted hardcover

The backlash to X wing 2.0 is perhaps the biggest kneejerk, though

This is just wrong. You can have 10,000 models in your Warhammer army and still only need the core rulebook and your army codex to play in every edition. You never had to "convert" each one of your ships in order to play for any edition.

The OP is correct. I've played Warhammer Fantasy Battles in the mid 1980's and have played a plethora of miniature games since. None of them have been this costly in terms of a simple edition change. That includes games that had radical new rules or options in edition changes. I have, for instance, over 400 individual Space Wolves models for Warhammer 40k. It only cost me a new rulebook and an army book (once it is released for current edition 40k) to make all of those models "converted" for the current edition.

Havent taken a stroll down your FLGS's Warhammer aisle yet have you? ? And yes, that is a totally fair comparison because when comparing new editions to games, switching to 2.0 with a conversion kit for one faction totaling $90 (probably cheaper with FLGS discounts) isnt terrible- I mean at least you're getting two boxes FULL of stuff AND 3 new ships. Not just a couple books...

Besides, Wave 14 is coming out before 2.0- and it comes with both first and second edition stuff so if you're not wanting to switch to 2.0, you can still enjoy another wave's worth of stuff for version 1. Plenty of people will be playing it for awhile still. And if you're switching to second edition, you will already have 3 ships before the game and conversion kits even come out. All you gotta do is buy a core set, and you'll be all set for playing a few games until you decide which conversion kit(s) to get first.

I think everyone needs to calm down about this whole thing until we can see exactly whats in the new core set and conversion kits. I mean how many of you with decent sized collections field your entire collection at once? Maybe in Epic play... but that is not supported yet for 2.0 so the answer is none of you will. Thus, you dont need a ton of conversion kits the first day, just save money and trade cards around for lists you want to build, then save up for the other conversion kits.

At least the redesign is geared towards getting ALL ships back onto the play mat and its evident they are going to try very hard to not need a third edition. I for one am very excited to play with ships that have been collecting dust on the shelf simply because they couldn't keep up with the newer ships with better abilities.

Yes there is the inherent problem of cost - Nobody likes spending extra money, I certainly dont, but unfortunately it's apart of this sort of hobby and they are a business, at the end of the day they need to make money. Judging from the Team Covenant interview of the design team, they put a lot of time and effort into it and Im willing to give it a shot. Plus it'll be a great time to start picking up 1.0 expansions for cheap, that way you can maximize the conversion kits you get

2 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

Yeah, I have to say that justification is getting old.

"I let Warhammer screw me 8 times before I joined X-wing."

"Don't be a baby. You'll get used to it."

It ain't my experience. And comparing this change to a game you left as "An acceptable left of screwing" isn't making me feel better.

Their comparison makes literally no sense. I've played Warhammer Fantasy since the mid 1980's. I've played Rogue Trader, the predecessor to Warhammer 40k and including 40k all the way till now. At no point did Games Workshop force the players to buy conversion kits for their armies. All you ever had to do was buy the new edition's core rulebook and your army's rule book. I mean, it really is that simple. The cost of edition change in 40k is nowhere near as high as 2.0 is.

So these comparisons, which I realize you are not making but just quoting someone else, makes absolutely no sense.