Sweeping Strikes doesn't say you can attack an unengaged unit in melee, it effectively makes you engaged with them, so it doesn't violate the melee rule as far as I can tell.

Although Sweeping Strikes, oof...Hawthorne isn't engaged, so Sweeping Strikes treats his front edge as contacting, so if you are touching them you are engaged, so there aren't any units you aren't engaged with, so your front edge isn't treated as touching any of them, so you are no longer engaged, so Sweeping Strikes treats...

NOOOOOOOOO, I'M STUCK IN THE VORTEX

But yeah, I'm going to go with his interpretation for now, lacking anything else official. Everyone has made excellent points on both sides of the debate. The real deciding factor is that BROOKS IS THE ULTIMATE POWER IN THE UNIVERSE

1 hour ago, Parakitor said:

ra  nge  d K  ethr  a can do is snipe out problem figures using Fortuna's Dic  e

What makes her not good at this is the rally on the action dial.

2 hours ago, FranquesEnbiens said:

BROOKS IS THE ULTIMA  TE POWER IN THE UNIVERSE

Insignificant next to the power of the Force

My rule of thumb. If an article explicitly says something, you play it that way until the opposite information is announced. Otherwise you're being ridiculous. The article says that you can deploy your scouts in round 1, does that mean it's not true?

1 minute ago, Curlycross said:

My rule of thumb. If an article explicitly says something, you play it that way until the opposite information is announced. Otherwise you're being ridiculous. The article says that you can deploy your scouts in round 1, does that mean it's not true?

My rule of thumb: use the rules to determine whether something can be done. If the article says it can be done and the rules support that stance, go for it. If the article says you can do something and the rules as written do not support it, then you might want to hold back.

I just keep thinking of the SLAM and bomb fiasco from the K-wing news article. There was an article that said you could use your Advance SLAM card to drop a bomb after using the SLAM action, but the card says the free action must be on your action bar and bomb actions are on upgrade cards, not on the action bar. So the article said you could do something that was directly contradicted by the rules. Since then, I pretty much ignore the articles. If the rules support it, great! If not, I wait for clarification.

Okay but in this case there isn't a clear rule that is being broken, it is 100% interpretation of rule that is being disputed. If there was a clear case answer we wouldnt' have this conversation. the fact the dispute is about an interpretation means I think you play it as the article has stated. The hero itself was built without a range mechanic so anyting written on the card talking about ranged would be silly. there is a card that says treat your attack as ranged. you still dial in the attack on your dials, so you are still doing an attack, you treat it as a ranged meaning you don't have to be engaged.

11 minutes ago, Curlycross said:

Okay but in this case there isn't a clear rule that is being broken, it is 100% interpretation of rule that is being disputed. If there was a clear case answer we wouldnt' have this conversation. the fact the dispute is about an interpretation means I think you play it as the article has stated. The hero itself was built without a range mechanic so anyting written on the card talking about ranged would be silly. there is a card that says treat your attack as ranged. you still dial in the attack on your dials, so you are still doing an attack, you treat it as a ranged meaning you don't have to be engaged.

In this case, the rules aren't exactly clear. There is room for interpretation on how much "treating" a melee attack as a ranged attack changes the nature of the melee attack. Since we have a sort of tie (though I believe it's clear enough that you can't use the surge ability), it's best to wait for a ruling.

However, articles should never be taken as rules text, even in this "tie-breaker" scenario. They are not rules documents and cannot be cited as such - they are written informally by unknown authors for marketing purposes. It could very well be that the way it's written in the article corresponds with the designer's intent and we'll see a clarification to that effect, but for now it falls to TO's to issue a ruling until a higher authority issues one.

1 minute ago, Bhelliom said:

In this case, the rules aren't exactly clear. There is room for interpretation on how much "treating" a melee attack as a ranged attack changes the nature of the melee attack. Since we have a sort of tie (though I believe it's clear enough that you can't use the surge ability), it's best to wait for a ruling.

However, articles should never be taken as rules text, even in this "tie-breaker" scenario. They are not rules documents and cannot be cited as such - they are written informally by unknown authors for marketing purposes. It could very well be that the way it's written in the article corresponds with the designer's intent and we'll see a clarification to that effect, but for now it falls to TO's to issue a ruling until a higher authority issues one.

That's my point exactly since there is room for interpretation we take the article at it's word until they specifically say otherwise... While I agree it is not a rule book and it is marketing, it is none-the-less words from the creators and not words from the people playing the game. Regardless of the purpose or who is writing the article anything written by the creators should trump any interpretation of a near 50-50 rule interpretation.

Just now, Curlycross said:

words from the creators

But that's just the point. The PR people writing the news articles are NOT creators. We can also infer that with so many rules mistakes in other articles, that designers and developers do not regularly (if ever) review the news articles for accuracy. So from a rules perspective, news articles are just as reliable as Joe Schmoe's opinion on the forums.

Just now, Budgernaut said:

The PR people writing the news articles are NO  T creators.

Can confirm.

26 minutes ago, Budgernaut said:

So the  article said  you could do some  thing that w  as directly contradicted by the rules.

I've seen soooo many instances of this now, AGOT LCG, LOTR LCG, X-wing, almost every FFG game I play.

Having said that they're not 1/10th as bad as WizKids.

Does the templating used on CQT help? CQT is "You can perform this [ranged attack] while engaged." That means it's still a ranged attack, uses ranged surges and abilities, and operates as a ranged attack on the dial.

Bonecaster does NOT say "You can perform your [melee attack] against a target in LOS and up to range 5." So if we assume the difference in wording is deliberate (rather than sloppy lack of templating), that would suggest it does not get to retain benefits that apply to melee attacks.

Anyone emailed FFG about this?

My take is that for 8 points and the specific way it's worded, the surge works with Bone Caster.

If not, it kinda makes Kings the auto include option instead of being a personal preference.

EDIT:
Right, now I am at a computer, here is my thought process:

Initiative 3 step declared
1. Keth'ra activates
2. Reveals Command dial
3. Perform Action: Melee action + surge modifier
4. Check Melee condition - Are you engaged ? NO
5. Melee action fails
6. Bone Caster declared - "You may perform your {Melee} as a {Ranged}"
7. Declare target
8. Is target in Range and Line of Sight? YES
9. Attacker rolls the dice as indicated by the attack profile - MELEE - Two White Dice
10. Re-roll with Precise 1
11. Spend Surges - Ability Pre-Requisite - Melee Action on dial ? YES
12 . . .
13 . . .

Now, if we are saying that BoneCaster completely changes your melee attack to a ranged attack then you now FAIL to meet the rules stated at step #9. You don't a ranged attack profile therefore you don't have any dice to roll and as per rules, if your attack dice are ever reduced to zero, your attack automatically fails.

So based on the order of operations, Bone Caster is a 8 point upgrade that causes you to automatically fail.

HOWEVER.

If you agree that it simply allows your melee action to follow the rules of a ranged action, then it STILL counts as a melee action, meaning you roll your two white dice and your surge ability, which requires you to be performing a melee action is met and therefore triggers.

Side rabbit hole to fall down.

If Kethra's attack is still some form of melee while using bonecaster, would she get effected by shield Margath/unnatural growths/Avenger of Latariana (and whatever other upgrades that fall into the "after defending against a melee attack" group of upgrades)?

11 minutes ago, Panzerninja said:

Side rabbit hole to fall down.

If Kethra's attack is still some form of melee while using bonecaster, would she get effected by shield Margath/unnatural growths/Avenger of Latariana (and whatever other upgrades that fall into the "after defending against a melee attack" group of upgrades)?

I'm amused by the notion of Avenging at range. Instead of counter-attacking, the Avenger calls down Latariana's wrath from the sky...

14 minutes ago, kaffis said:

I'm amused by the notion of Avenging at range. Instead of counter-attacking, the Avenger calls down Latariana's wrath from the sky...

I was considering heartseeker/bonecaster attack through terrain, immediately followed by the shield of margath flying towards kethra's face like captain america's shield.

To respond to @Curlycross , and your point about taking the article as our only reference - that's why I posted about asking Brooks at Gen Con. In case I didn't explain that situation clearly enough, Brooks was the marshal for the Runewars tournament at Gen Con. I asked him about Kethra, and while he said he wants clarification from the designer, he would say that her surge ability does not work.

And while it's not a FAQ or an official rules document, I would take the call of a marshal at a major event as the best thing we have until it's clarified. As an X-Wing judge, I have had to do that before with sticky rules questions - I have told players before an event that I was going to rule a certain way because that's what the marshal ruled at Worlds/NA Champs/etc.

Of course, we may have events out there run by TOs who haven't heard the ruling, and have to make a call on their own, so for anyone planning to play in one, I would ask your TO or judge before the event if you can, and you can helpfully offer that you have a precedent from an FFG marshal for the time being.

@Viktus106 - I haven't emailed since I got a clarification from Brooks, as I mentioned above, but I am not sure if you'd get a different answer - I don't know who is answering rules questions for Runewars. I understand your rationale, but here's the way I picture it. Are you choosing to use Bonecaster? If yes, you can imagine that the symbol on your dial, and the symbol on your attack profile, has changed from a melee symbol to a ranged symbol (because you are treating the attack, and the icons associated with it, as the ranged attack action/icon) - those are the two things that govern your melee attack, and they are now replaced by the ranged symbol. Now does the surge ability work? No, because the symbol on the ability doesn't match.

If/when they do clarify with an FAQ, then we'll have official documentation - and it may go either way. But for now, absent anything in writing in a rules document, I think locally we are going to go with the way it would be called at an event by FFG.

18 minutes ago, FranquesEnbiens said:

To respond to @Curlycross , and your point about taking the article as our only reference - that's why I posted about asking Brooks at Gen Con. In case I didn't explain that situation clearly enough, Brooks was the marshal for the Runewars tournament at Gen Con. I asked him about Kethra, and while he said he wants clarification from the designer, he would say that her surge ability does not work.

And while it's not a FAQ or an official rules document, I would take the call of a marshal at a major event as the best thing we have until it's clarified. As an X-Wing judge, I have had to do that before with sticky rules questions - I have told players before an event that I was going to rule a certain way because that's what the marshal ruled at Worlds/NA Champs/etc.

Of course, we may have events out there run by TOs who haven't heard the ruling, and have to make a call on their own, so for anyone planning to play in one, I would ask your TO or judge before the event if you can, and you can helpfully offer that you have a precedent from an FFG marshal for the time being.

@Viktus106 - I haven't emailed since I got a clarification from Brooks, as I mentioned above, but I am not sure if you'd get a different answer - I don't know who is answering rules questions for Runewars. I understand your rationale, but here's the way I picture it. Are you choosing to use Bonecaster? If yes, you can imagine that the symbol on your dial, and the symbol on your attack profile, has changed from a melee symbol to a ranged symbol (because you are treating the attack, and the icons associated with it, as the ranged attack action/icon) - those are the two things that govern your melee attack, and they are now replaced by the ranged symbol. Now does the surge ability work? No, because the symbol on the ability doesn't match.

If/when they do clarify with an FAQ, then we'll have official documentation - and it may go either way. But for now, absent anything in writing in a rules document, I think locally we are going to go with the way it would be called at an event by FFG.

Good advice on asking the TO prior. I think this is the way forward.

As for the ruling, it s a tough one to call as I also appreciate your understanding on it and completely see the logic there. I think the best thing we can do here, as a community, is be consistent with it until it becomes "official." So until then, we are saying Bone Caster + Surge is a no.

Whilst I feel it massively reduces the effectiveness of Bone Caster, especially for 8 points, I think this is the safer option.

Kings armour it is.

39 minutes ago, Viktus106 said:

Good advice on asking the TO prior. I think this is the way forward.

As for the ruling, it s a tough one to call as I also appreciate your understanding on it and completely see the logic there. I think the best thing we can do here, as a community, is be consistent with it until it becomes "official." So until then, we are saying Bone Caster + Surge is a no.

Whilst I feel it massively reduces the effectiveness of Bone Caster, especially for 8 points, I think this is the safer option.

Kings armour it is.

Lol that's just it there is a debate. Just because some people say it can't be done doesn't mean that's the official consensus of everyone. Let's use some added logic. We all say they're dumb with rules so why couldn't they have just been dumb with this wording. We may figure we know their intent. I say that because EVERYONE is talking about how expensive 8 points is just to allow your melee to be ranged with no benefit of her surge ability. Why would they make a hero with a mechanic to change melee to range and not allow you to use the only surge ability if you choose that path. Especially at such a high cost. It costs as much as the siege upgrade for the whole hero Vorun'thul. And someone said it changes what's on your dial from a melee to a range, no it makes it so you can use melee as a range. It's not forcing you to do that, with that logic you'd never be able to melee with that upgrade. The melee is still dialed in, so you still get the benefits of the surge ability as it matches what is dialed in. @Viktus106 explains it well above.

45 minutes ago, Curlycross said:

It's not forcing you to do that, with that logic you'd never be able to melee with that upgrade. 

I don't think anything in what I said (or what is on the card) would stop you being able to melee, as the card says "may." So the way I see it, when you reveal her dial, you are choosing whether to use her attack as a melee or a ranged attack. If you are engaged with a unit, you choose melee, and resolve it as a melee. If you are not, you choose ranged (unless you just don't want to shoot), and resolve it treating it exactly as a ranged attack. Nothing about that, or any ruling about the surge ability issue, would ever stop you from having the choice.

Using the argument of, "Well it costs a lot, so it has to be this way," or, "I think this is what the designers intended and/or they worded it poorly" isn't really a great justification for it.

Like I said, if your local TO or the TO of the event you are playing in lets you use it, then go nuts! If you think that's how it works, and your local TO agrees, then that's how it will be locally for you, since we don't have it in an official rules document.

I'm just sharing the way I make sense of the ruling that I was told, and the way I would expect it to be ruled at any FFG-run event.

@Viktus106 - Thanks, I understand your logic as well, and I am admittedly undecided as to whether I think it should be that way or not. I can see both arguments. It would be nice to have community consensus so we could expect a similar experience regardless of where you play, which is why I shared my conversation from Gen Con. Of course, if local TOs decide that they disagree, then that's up to them.

The more information we have out there for local TOs to digest about it, the better!

1 hour ago, Curlycross said:

Especially at such a high cost. It costs as much as the siege upgrade for the whole hero Vorun'thul.

Oh, don't get me started on expensive upgrades.

Ardus Ix'Erebus figure upgrade: 23 points

The Duskblade: 8 points

Heartseeker: 10 points

I look at these options and 8 points seems fine. It's almost like "Add 2 white dice to your ranged attack." Oh, and by the way, white dice have a 75% chance to roll a hit, and she's precise. I think of Bonecaster as a compromise when you want her outside of combat to do her skill. At least she's contributing some damage.

Do I think she would be broken if the surge worked at range? No. But there are just enough weird things considering other card precedents, along with the interim ruling from the marshal at North American Championships, that it makes it tough for me to reason that the surge works.

I don't have any stunning revelations to give either way on this issue. I think that I agree more with the "no surge" side in terms of strict rules interpretation. But, I side with the "yes surge" side in terms of what I think they actually meant. I say that because there's little chance I'd ever pick Bonecaster if it can't use the surge (it just improves the average damage so much). All I can really say is that, for now, I'm way more excited to either save 8 points or use Kingsbane Armor than I am to use Bonecaster.

I think what you guys are forgetting in this whole thing is that I'm always right. (Lighthearted joking).

Not interested in rehashing the arguments for or against surges with Bonecaster... I think they have been made to the extent possible...

But I want to address the idea (however irrelevant to the argument) that Bonecaster wouldn't be worth its cost without the surge ability. This is... shortsighted. I've been playing against her for several months. It is well worth the points. Bonecaster Kethra is deadly against armor. She is hard to get to. She is versatile, sometimes splitting damage between a ranged target and something she is wounding with her skill. She works really well with the Uthuk style of diving into your opponents face because she can deal damage without having to squeeze into an already crowded battlefield. She also shoots at an early initiative, giving her the opportunity to outshoot anything but Kari or a huge group of archers. Against ranged units she doesn't fair well against, she can often just shoot at blockers from outside their range and then engage once her frontline gets engaged.

Play against it (or with it) before you judge it's value. It is well worth 8 points, even without the surge ability.

On 8/11/2018 at 4:10 AM, QuickWhit said:

Not interested in rehashing the arguments for or against surges with Bonecaster... I think they have been made to the extent possible...

But I want to address the idea (however irrelevant to the argument) that Bonecaster wouldn't be worth its cost without the surge ability. This is... shortsighted. I've been playing against her for several months. It is well worth the points. Bonecaster Kethra is deadly against armor. She is hard to get to. She is versatile, sometimes splitting damage between a ranged target and something she is wounding with her skill. She works really well with the Uthuk style of diving into your opponents face because she can deal damage without having to squeeze into an already crowded battlefield. She also shoots at an early initiative, giving her the opportunity to outshoot anything but Kari or a huge group of archers. Against ranged units she doesn't fair well against, she can often just shoot at blockers from outside their range and then engage once her frontline gets engaged.

Play against it (or with it) before you judge it's value. It is well worth 8 points, even without the surge ability.

It could be worth it's points, but without the surge ability ramping up her damage, Kingsbane Armor is a point cheaper, increases your armor and enables her to kill almost anything quickly.

Example:
Keth'ra charges a Spined Thresher 2 x 1
Kingsbane deals 2 damage (one wound) upon colliding.
Melee action of two white dice with surge ability (let's say she manages hit/surge + hit/surge after Precise 1). 8 damage (four wounds, that's a dead Spined Thresher).
Spined Thresher activates, it takes two damage (one wound) then you do what ever was dialed in. If it was a charge, they just took a wound for nought. If it was melee, then its two dice, threat 2 against a non-panic, armor 4 Keth'ra meaning that ST needs two natties or nothing happens.
Next turn, Keth'ra is activiating a I3 with a surge dialed. That Spined Thresher is toast. It's taking 4 damage, minimum, regardless of what the dice say and with Precise 1, you know you are going to get the results you need.

Essentially, in two turns, Keth'ra just put out 20 damage and removed arguably the best point for point fighter in the game. That's without Shield of Payback too.

If you take Bonecaster, without her surge ability, the most you are doing is 4/6 on dice, 5 if you dial in a mortal strike but really, it's not as great as the above example.

To me, the idea behind Kingsbane and her surge is what makes her filth. With Bonecaster nerfing her damage, I can't see the appeal and whilst I LOVE her model, I would rather take Ravos.

Now with all that said, you are right, this is something that people need to actually experience before making a final decision and I hope to do just that in the coming days. The fact you have been using her for a time already naturally puts you ahead of the curve and I respect your analysis on it which is why I am willing to give it a shot.

On ‎8‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 10:10 PM, QuickWhit said:

Play against it (or with it) before you judge it's value. It is well worth 8 points, even without the surge ability.

I concede this is true, I appreciate your knowledge on the topic. I'm still waiting for my local store to order my **** order!