Quick background into this question: My small group has printed up cards and dials for unreleased expansions, including the Darnati Warriors, Wraiths, and Kethra. We have been having a blast with them, but an issue has come up that we were hoping to get the group's input on...

Kethra's surge ability shows the melee icon and states: "[Surge icon]: The defender suffers 2 damage."

http://runewars.wikia.com/wiki/Kethra_A%27laak

The Bonecaster upgrade states: "You may perform your [Melee Icon] as a [Ranged Icon].

http://runewars.wikia.com/wiki/Bonecaster

I believe this should be interpreted as a ranged attack, and thus not able to use the surge ability. However, the release article states: "Kethra may use the skills she gained in her years of training to enact her Bonecaster upgrade. This unique upgrade, specific to Kethra A’laak, allows the witch to perform her melee as a ranged attack. When used alongside her surge modifier, Kethra can use this ranged melee to inflict two damage on her opponent without the need of dice and without putting herself at risk."

https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/news/2017/9/11/sorceress-of-the-blood-coven/

I realize that these release articles are often wrong. But I wanted to get other's opinion on how this is supposed to work so that we are playing it correctly...

I’ve wondered about this as well. I figured that the surge works as you are still performing a melee attack, just treating it as a ranged. Still, I haven’t dug through the RRG to figure it out for certain. I’m quite curious how that works

I mean, I hope it does or you are pissng away 42 points for an archer unit that does 4 average damage and a mortal strike. Her skill action is so craphazardly useful that I don’t expect to use it unless I have a unit in range 1 of several high armor targets. Still, hope and/or common sense aren’t the RRG or FAQ.

You'd be surprised how good her skill is actually... White dice are pretty consistent (75%) to hit. The range is unlimited with no need four line of sight. Uthuk have no shortage of fast expendable units or just huge wound pools. The white skill means she often gets tip chose exactly when it happens, often resulting in a late round explosion followed by an really round explosion. Your heroes and cavalry just aren't safe against her...

Also, shooting at early initiative with brutal + precise with 2 whites and mortal on the dial is not bad at all. She wrecks high armor comps.

Well, as an example, Ardus takes surge abilities from nearby units that are ranged or melee and can apply them to his melee attack.

I think we have to specifically wait for Kethra to come out, but I would be of the belief that it would be able to be ranged with the Bonecaster upgrade.

Ardus' surge stealing ability specifically identifies that he can do it for both ranged and melee tied surge abilities by identifying the range and melee symbols on his card.

http://runewars.wikia.com/wiki/Ardus_Ix'Erebus

This to me is the support for Kethra's surges not working with bonecaster. Surge abilities are usually tied to the specific symbol. Bonecaster changes Kethra's symbol from a melee to a ranged one. I feel if it was intended to work with both, either her surge ability would show both melee and ranged symbols (like Maegan's) or bonecaster would just state that her melee attack may have range 1-5 but then requires line of sight.

I have been interpreting her surge ability as applicable to her ranged attack, as well. The melee attack symbol means, "while performing a melee attack," and Bonecaster says to perform your melee attack as a ranged attack. It specifically does not say to perform a ranged attack. That's why I think the surge ability works with Bonecaster.

Yeah this is how we interpreted it at first. But then after reviewing both cards again we changed it to not using the surge. The thought was that performing a melee attack "as a [ranged symbol]" means it is a ranged attack and thus does not benefit from a [melee symbol] tied surge ability...

So I definitely see how you could view it that way... But the more I look at it the more I think that "as a ranged attack" means it is no longer a melee...

Another useful exercise is to think about the person who wrote it

Suppose you wanted Bonecaster to forfeit the surge ability. How would you word the card?

suppose you wanted them to work together. How would you word it differently?

For the first case, I would write, "When you reveal a melee attack on your command tool, you may perform a ranged attack instead."

For the second case, I have trouble thinking of a more succinct way to write it than what is already written. Maybe add a sentence that says, "This attack is still considered a melee attack."

If I intended it to work with bone caster I would put a melee and ranged icon next to it... Same as Maegan...

Meghan has the ability to do a ranged or melee attack all the time which is why they put it on hers.

Quit fighting it and give in to the Kethra power!!!!

=)

Touché. I think you might have me convinced there.

10 hours ago, QuickWhit said:

If I intended it to work with bone caster I would put a melee and ranged icon next to it... Same as Maegan...

But Maegan has a standard ranged attack, so it's important to say this ability works with both of her attacks.

1 hour ago, Xelto said:

But Maegan has a standard ranged attack, so it's important to say this ability works with both of her attacks.

Yes, but I wrote out a whole post comparing that issue to the fact that Bonecaster adds the ranged attack separately and as I wrote it out, I felt I was grasping at straws trying to justify why the surge ability should apply to her ranged attack. Ankaur Maro, Maegan Cyndewin, and Kari Wraithstalker all have both melee and ranged attack profiles written on their cards. The designers/developers intentionally and clearly indicated tjat Maegan's surge ability could be used with both attacks, Ankaur's surge ability could only be used with his ranged attack, and Kari's surge ability could only be used with her melee attack.

Bonecaster isn't an expansion card that was designed/developed independent of Kethra's unit card. They come in the same package and were designed and tested together.The clearest way to indicate that her surge ability could be used with both ranged and melee attacks would be to put both symbols with the surge ability. They didn't do that.

The only other way I could see the surge ability working with Bonecaster is if the ranged attack is regarded as a melee attack, even though it is treated as a ranged attack, but that gets super confusing and introduces a whole bunch of ambiguous interactions. Do targets by the cart still get Protected 1? Do allies still suffer a morale test when Kethra shoots at an enemy they are engaged with? In other words, if the melee-attack-only surge ability works with her ranged attack, how do we decide which ranged effects and melee effects do or do not affect the attack? So either she sacrifices the surge ability when using Bonecaster, or the writers are completely incompetent. (Hyperbole used here.)

14 hours ago, mikehansenasu said:

Meghan has the ability to do a ranged or melee attack all the time which is why they put it on hers.

Quit fighting it and give in to the Kethra power!!!!

?

We both know she doesn't need the surge ability to be powerful =P

3 hours ago, Budgernaut said:

Yes, but I wrote out a whole post comparing that issue to the fact that Bonecaster adds the ranged attack separately and as I wrote it out, I felt I was grasping at straws trying to justify why the surge ability should apply to her ranged attack. Ankaur Maro, Maegan Cyndewin, and Kari Wraithstalker all have both melee and ranged attack profiles written on their cards. The designers/developers intentionally and clearly indicated tjat Maegan's surge ability could be used with both attacks, Ankaur's surge ability could only be used with his ranged attack, and Kari's surge ability could only be used with her melee attack.

Bonecaster isn't an expansion card that was designed/developed independent of Kethra's unit card. They come in the same package and were designed and tested together.The clearest way to indicate that her surge ability could be used with both ranged and melee attacks would be to put both symbols with the surge ability. They didn't do that.

The only other way I could see the surge ability working with Bonecaster is if the ranged attack is regarded as a melee attack, even though it is treated as a ranged attack, but that gets super confusing and introduces a whole bunch of ambiguous interactions. Do targets by the cart still get Protected 1? Do allies still suffer a morale test when Kethra shoots at an enemy they are engaged with? In other words, if the melee-attack-only surge ability works with her ranged attack, how do we decide which ranged effects and melee effects do or do not affect the attack? So either she sacrifices the surge ability when using Bonecaster, or the writers are completely incompetent. (Hyperbole used here.)

And we still don't technically have her or her cards yet. Until we have card stock, I think this is still very speculative.

Do we have an official ruling on this one? Until we do, I think I'm just going to be using Kingsbone Armor instead.

6 hours ago, Budgernaut said:

Do we have an official ruling on this one? Until we do, I think I'm just going to be using Kingsbone Armor instead.

There was some discussion at Gencon, that boiled down to: The marshal there thought she could not use it, but would want to consult with the designer before anything truly official was decided.

With that in mind I guess we need to wait for the next FAQ.

I don't understand how you guys are debating this. This is from the article on her exactly, I have underlined the pertinent part:

Mistress of Blood Magic

The Kethra A’laak Hero Expansion includes two customizable figurines, one of Kethra alone and the other of her riding her loyal flesh ripper, Hurokk. In addition, this pack includes a collection of new unique tokens, terrain, and upgrade cards. Kethra may use the skills she gained in her years of training to enact her Bonecaster upgrade. This unique upgrade, specific to Kethra A’laak, allows the witch to perform her melee as a ranged attack. When used alongside her surge modifier , Kethra can use this ranged melee to inflict two damage on her opponent without the need of dice and without putting herself at risk.

EDIT: Here is a link to the article, from September 2017, https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/news/2017/9/11/sorceress-of-the-blood-coven/

15 minutes ago, Curlycross said:

I don't understand how you guys are debating this. This is from the article on her exactly, I have underlined the pertinent part:

Mistress of Blood Magic

The Kethra A’laak Hero Expansion includes two customizable figurines, one of Kethra alone and the other of her riding her loyal flesh ripper, Hurokk. In addition, this pack includes a collection of new unique tokens, terrain, and upgrade cards. Kethra may use the skills she gained in her years of training to enact her Bonecaster upgrade. This unique upgrade, specific to Kethra A’laak, allows the witch to perform her melee as a ranged attack. When used alongside her surge modifier , Kethra can use this ranged melee to inflict two damage on her opponent without the need of dice and without putting herself at risk.

EDIT: Here is a link to the article, from September 2017, https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/news/2017/9/11/sorceress-of-the-blood-coven/

We can debate it because A) the news articles are frequently wrong, and B) if that were true, we need clarification on a host of interactions as I mentioned above.

Yeah preview articles getting rules wrong is basically a given at this point.

15 minutes ago, Bhelliom said:

Yeah preview articles getting rules wrong is basically a given at this point.

In this case I think they got it right. If you perform your melee as a ranged, then you are performing a melee attack, just at range 1-5 in your arc.

I.e. it does not say: "perform a ranged attack using you melee dice pool".

Those are 2 distinctly different statements.

20 minutes ago, flightmaster101 said:

In this case I think they got it right. If you perform your melee as a ranged, then you are performing a melee attack, just at range 1-5 in your arc.

I.e. it does not say: "perform a ranged attack using you melee dice pool".

Those are 2 distinctly different statements.

Yeah, definitely needs clarification. I'm inclined to say it stops being a melee attack as soon as the icon for a ranged attack comes into play, but I could very much see it going either way. I wonder if it would ever see play if you couldn't use her surge ability with it... WW Brutal Precise is still an excellent attack, but that is a significant loss.

9 minutes ago, flightmaster101 said:

In this case I think they got it right. If you perform your melee as a ranged, then you are performing a melee attack, just at range 1-5 in your arc. 

I.e. it does not say: "perform a ranged attack using you melee dice pool".

Those are 2 distinctly different statements.

This was our reasoning for just the opposite.

Our discussion boiled down to: If they had meant you to be able to use her surge ability, they would have worded Bonecaster something like: "Perform this melee attack at a target at range 1-5 in your firing arc." I think Brooks' ruling, as well as my understanding of how it works, is based on a few things from the RRG:

So if the icon represents the action, then if you choose to use Bonecaster, you are no longer doing the corresponding attack action. And I think that's the crux of the argument - if you perform a melee attack as a ranged attack, does it cease to be melee and become ranged? If you look at just the wording (that you are taking the action that corresponds with the icon), then I think you are now doing a ranged attack - which is why Brooks' answer was yes, therefore her surge ability can't apply.

Maybe this is worth considering as well:

10.2 Step 2—Choose Target: The attacker chooses an enemy unit as the target of the attack. That enemy unit is the defender. • If the attacker is performing a melee attack (?) action, he must be engaged with the defender.

So it has to be a ranged attack, because you can't make a melee against an unengaged unit?

Basically, we'll have to wait for a FAQ to clarify for sure on that one, I think!

3 minutes ago, FranquesEnbiens said:

So   it has to be a ranged attack, because you can't make a melee against an unengaged  unit?

Hawthorne with sweeping strikes(?) can. Cards always override the rulebook, that is FFG's "Golden Rule".

But if that's what Brooks said then I'm ok with it. That isnt even close to the best thing she can do, its just a way of getting her more involved than just handing out wounds. I think Tanky Kethra is a better thing than ranged Kethra.

6 minutes ago, flightmaster101 said:

That isnt even close to the best thing she can do, its just a way of getting her more involved than just handing out wounds. I think Tanky Kethra is a better thing than ranged Kethra.

I generally agree, but the thing ranged Kethra can do is snipe out problem figures using Fortuna's Dice, and then go about her business of skill bombing the entire battlefield. So it really depends on what she's there for, and I like that she is so versatile. Sure makes it tough to plan an attack against her, though, since you never know how your opponent is going to kit her out!