8 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

it's kinda hard to explain why 2.0 fixes what's broken because it basically fixes...everything?

suffice it to say, the loopin' chewie scenario came about because there was literally nothing either player could do to influence the game state. They were playing the same ship, but the mechanics in place literally guaranteed that they could not hurt each other

so they played loopin' chewie until time and decided it with a final salvo (die off)

this is is indicative of a game where the player matters less than the busted combos present, a game basically collapsing under the weight of way too many broken mechanics taking the player out of the equation (especially turrets)

there's a lot of things that added up to this, turrets (can't stress it enough, you literally can't dodge a turret), how the price gap between high PS and low PS was utterly insignificant next to the benefit, how you could compound guarantees to literally lock your opponent out of doing anything (palp aces famously, or TIE fighters against reinforce wookies), how high PS synergized with said compounded guarantees...

basically, your ability to play the game mattered a LOT less than your ability to play it

2.0 is slated to address this by taking a hatchet to all of the problems I've mentioned (especially turrets, **** them and good riddance). You now pay appropriate costs for better PS, both as an initial investment and in scaling upgrade costs, and you can no longer effortlessly weave in high ps positioning with action-independent modifiers with unavoidable dice-chucking turrets

upgrade cost scaling, removal of guaranteed defense stacking (Evade now changes results, reinforce can't reduce damage below 0), action chaining being limited by chassis, powerful effects like regeneration are now linked to limited-use charges, card bloat removed and condensed into far more convenient pilot cards...

there's a LOT going on you can't just roll into the game. you have to basically reboot it, which is what they did

yeah the fixes are exceptional.

the price they are charging to update is outrageous.

if the threw 1 extra generic set of cardboard chits in for each generic ship, then I wouldnt be complaining, but I fly everything in 3+ formations. that 3rd defender is going to cost $50 extra to fly now because FFG are being greedy.

I made a board game and am in the process of producing it, and with way more components its gonna cost me about $20 to produce a copy. FFG gets a better deal because of volume and bargaining power, so there is no excuse for charging $50 for these.

FFG should be asking for proof of purchase and mailing back the components for each ship for 1 or 2.

**** they should have announced this 2.0 deal with an apology to collectors and a "please stay with us, we appreciate your business" type thing

its the blatant cash grab, NOT the rework, that people are mad about. also what about epic? what are we even getting with these things? just wtf

4 minutes ago, Vontoothskie said:

if the threw 1 extra generic set of cardboard chits in for each generic ship, then I wouldnt be complaining, but I fly everything in 3+ formations. that 3rd defender is going to cost $50 extra to fly now because FFG are being greedy.

That third defender probably costs you $5 max on eBay or a Facebook group if it’s all you need from a second kit.

4 minutes ago, Vontoothskie said:

FFG should be asking for proof of purchase and mailing back the components for each ship for 1 or 2.

Hahahahahahahah

4 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

That third defender probably costs you $5 max on eBay or a Facebook group if it’s all you need from a second kit.

Hahahahahahahah

why are you so invested in FFGs profit margin? they already upped ship cost 5 dollars.

if you sent a proof of purchase and $10 and got 20 pieces of cardboard and a plastic base, I think they would still be doing fine

I don't see why people are calling this a blatant cash grab.

They could just say, "Hey, we're moving on to X-Wing 2.0, and will no longer be running 1.0 events. By the way, there's no conversion kits, and you have to buy all the ships again."

So, instead of an Imperial conversion kit for $50, one would have to buy each ship individually. So, at the most conservative level (you only bought a core set and 3 Defenders to play a single Defender list - meaning you didn't care for the x7 title), you now have to buy a new core set and 3 new Defenders. Paying for models you already own (you'll now have 6 Defender models, but can only use 3 at time, realistically).

Assuming we're just going to use old prices for comparison, then essentially you've save $5 (3x $15 = $45, as opposed to the conversion kit that has all that extra useless stuff, that you certainly couldn't sell, perhaps on eBay).

On the other hand, let's look at someone who has exactly the numbers of everything in the conversion kit (again, going to fudge actual prices, as I don't want to take the time to look everything up)

3 – Alpha-class Star Wing - $45
3 – Inquisitor’s TIE - $45

...

Oh, wait, I don't need to even keep going. By having the conversion kit and not having to buy new individual ships, and then have more models than I can play, I've already saved myself half of what I'd have to pay to buy everything completely fresh. And that's only on the second entry on the conversion kit. There are 11 more ship entries, for a total of 28 more conversions. Even if you just count every expansion as only $15, that's another $420 that said player isn't spending.

Yes, if you have more of some ships and need a second conversion kit, it gets a little more annoying in some cases (example, I own 5 T-65s already, and the conversion kit only covers 2. 5 Defenders, again, only covers 2. Meaning I need not 2 of each conversion kit, but 3. And you know what? I don't already own 12 TIE Fighters, so I'll have 4 extra conversions if I buy the third kit. If I get everything I'm looking at, it's something like $350 to convert everything, and I'll have lots of extra stuff. But I'm pretty sure it'll still be cheaper than if I'd had to buy everything over as new expansion packs.

So yes, converting is going to cost. But that seems to me to be a significantly reduced cost of entry if I want to play 2.0. If I don't, of course, then I don't have to spend anything, I just have to understand that FFG isn't supporting 1.0 anymore.

But it's hardly a cash grab.

5 minutes ago, Vontoothskie said:

why are you so invested in FFGs profit margin? they already upped ship cost 5 dollars.

if you sent a proof of purchase and $10 and got 20 pieces of cardboard and a plastic base, I think they would still be doing fine

You said nothing about sending them money, only proof of purchase.

4 hours ago, mdl0114 said:

Come on, that’s a ridiculously disingenuous comment. You can use your old MtG cards only in the formats they are legal for, or if they happen to rotate back into standard like the elves just did a week-ish ago from the not-legal for standard they were at before then. Aside from the various formats’ changing lists of banned cards of course.

And guess what, you can use your old models entirely in the new Game, just like you can use a handful of old magic cards in the current standard Game and a larger pool in older formats, except for the 90% of trash cards of course that aren’t fit for kindling. I think it’s fair to say MtG is a terrible example to use as a game where you can use everything you get until the end of time.

Only if you couch it in terms of "legality." Which has no meaning at all for someone not at a tournament.

I can walk to the store right now, buy a pack of Magic cards, and riffle them into a 20 year old deck I built in 1998, and play a game with my friends.

All of my Magic cards are PLAYABLE with any and all of my other Magic cards.

So Magic is the perfect example of a quarter century of compatibility.

The only thing I can use from XWM 1.0 is all the plastic models and some of the plastic stands. The games are NOT PLAYABLE at all with one another.

Sadly I'm only a 40k vet of 8 years, but 8th ed was the worst one yet, especially on the wallet with 60$ rulebook and 50$ codices, at least Xwing 2.0 gets you 3 ships included

5 minutes ago, mad mandolorian said:

Sadly I'm only a 40k vet of 8 years, but 8th ed was the worst one yet, especially on the wallet with 60$ rulebook and 50$ codices, at least Xwing 2.0 gets you 3 ships included

As I pointed out earlier, if this is what the gaming industry has become, I ain't gonna be one of the suckers that feeds it.

Maybe I do need to dig out all of my Magic. I've got 25 years of cards that can all still be used in 1 deck.

You know, this all sounds like it costs about as much as putting together an actually competitive Magic deck....

1 minute ago, Darth Meanie said:

As I pointed out earlier, if this is what the gaming industry has become, I ain't gonna be one of the suckers that feeds it.

Maybe I do need to dig out all of my Magic. I've got 25 years of cards that can all still be used in 1 deck.

are they still legal? from what I know of MtG they rotate out old packs to make the meta "Easyer" to manage

12 minutes ago, mad mandolorian said:

Sadly I'm only a 40k vet of 8 years, but 8th ed was the worst one yet, especially on the wallet with 60$ rulebook and 50$ codices, at least Xwing 2.0 gets you 3 ships included

If I was ONLY looking at $160 to upgrade my forces I wouldn't mind. But I have to pay more because I have a larger collection. I'm not happy about that.

1 hour ago, ficklegreendice said:

there's a LOT going on you can't just roll into the game. you have to basically reboot it, which is what they did

A reboot would have been fine.

They changed operating systems.

8 hours ago, BigBadAndy said:

My initial response was to be pretty upset and I am still waffling between disappointment and indifference for 2.0. But at worst, FFG is discontinuing the product line for your current collection. They can’t come and steal it from you. What they are ”extorting” from you, to paraphrase your words, is the ability to participate in future X-Wing organized play.

. . .any future development of the game.

16 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

Only if you couch it in terms of "legality." Which has no meaning at all for someone not at a tournament.

I can walk to the store right now, buy a pack of Magic cards, and riffle them into a 20 year old deck I built in 1998, and play a game with my friends.

All of my Magic cards are PLAYABLE with any and all of my other Magic cards.

So Magic is the perfect example of a quarter century of compatibility.

The only thing I can use from XWM 1.0 is all the plastic models and some of the plastic stands. The games are NOT PLAYABLE at all with one another.

The TIE dial and stats already are exactly the same between editions, looks like the Fang dial is too. If you want "make it all up" levels of compatibility like your Magic example you've got it, you've got as high a relative percentage of still usable old components in the 1-2e transition already as you do in Magic. But this is rapidly not an actual discussion so whatever, it's the internet not going to convince someone on feelings.

16 minutes ago, mad mandolorian said:

are they still legal? from what I know of MtG they rotate out old packs to make the meta "Easyer" to manage

Neither the cops nor a Wizards of the Coast TO has come to break up one of my kitchen table games, so they seem legal enough.

Since you seem to not understand, I'll say it again:

I ONLY PLAY AT THE KITCHEN TABLE AND COULD GIVE A RATS *** WHAT IS "SANCTIONED" EITHER FOR MAGIC OR X-WING.

The point, again, is that all Magic cards work together. As a game. Still.

This is not true for XWM 1.0 and 2.0.

5 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

Neither the cops nor a Wizards of the Coast TO has come to break up one of my kitchen table games, so they seem legal enough.

Since you seem to not understand, I'll say it again:

I ONLY PLAY AT THE KITCHEN TABLE AND COULD GIVE A RATS *** WHAT IS "SANCTIONED" EITHER FOR MAGIC OR X-WING.

The point, again, is that all Magic cards work together. As a game. Still.

This is not true for XWM 1.0 and 2.0.

Ah, ok carry on!

1 hour ago, mad mandolorian said:

Sadly I'm only a 40k vet of 8 years, but 8th ed was the worst one yet, especially on the wallet with 60$ rulebook and 50$ codices, at least Xwing 2.0 gets you 3 ships included

I've played 40k since Rogue Trader. I'd much rather pay for a rulebook and my individual army book as a one time edition change than pay $400.00 USD plus taxes to convert all of my models. GW doesn't make you convert your models each edition.

13 minutes ago, Bulwyf said:

I've played 40k since Rogue Trader. I'd much rather pay for a rulebook and my individual army book as a one time edition change than pay $400.00 USD plus taxes to convert all of my models. GW doesn't make you convert your models each edition.

You’re comparing updating one army for 40k to your entire collection in X-Wing. No **** X-Wing comes out worse. You can convert an entire faction for standard play into 2.0 for $140 retail.

The only way to not have to convert the models would be to have completely generic base tokens (so you’d have to just get a small number of them) and have ALL of the cards be in the app or something only. Which would piss off the people upset about the app as it is even more...

56 minutes ago, Bulwyf said:

GW doesn't make you convert your models each edition.

Indeed. If you wanted you could totally pull out your old Squat army and play them right now Oh wait...

On a more serious note, while GW doesn't 'hard' push you to convert each model, they do 'hard' push you to pay for the new rules (rule book+army book is about 80$ IIRC) and they also 'soft' push you toward new releases by power creep/new rules options.

Just now, LordBlades said:

Indeed. If you wanted you could totally pull out your old Squat army and play them right now Oh wait...

On a more serious note, while GW doesn't 'hard' push you to convert each model, they do 'hard' push you to pay for the new rules (rule book+army book is about 80$ IIRC) and they also 'soft' push you toward new releases by power creep/new rules options.

You could quite easily proxy your entire Squat army using the profile of another faction in 40K.

But yes, this edition change is much more expensive for X Wing than an edition change in 40K is. Depending on the size of your collections and how many factions you play, it could be three times more expensive in X Wing. Best case scenario you're only paying like $50 more in X Wing. But in no way is it cheaper.

2 hours ago, Chucknuckle said:

If I was ONLY looking at $160 to upgrade my forces I wouldn't mind. But I have to pay more because I have a larger collection. I'm not happy about that.

But you don‘t know yet how many you should reuse in this new game

18 minutes ago, Chucknuckle said:

You could quite easily proxy your entire Squat army using the profile of another faction in 40K.

But yes, this edition change is much more expensive for X Wing than an edition change in 40K is. Depending on the size of your collections and how many factions you play, it could be three times more expensive in X Wing. Best case scenario you're only paying like $50 more in X Wing. But in no way is it cheaper.

Can't agree, given gw's evil came across in power creeping your collection into irrelevance in order to force you to buy new ****

Plus the **** awful update cycle that might have made your favorite army the bottom feeder for months on end simply because it wasn't crept up to speed which droclve quite a few to invest in spess mehrines on the side.

GW always loved their spess mehrines, to the point where they kept releasing supplementary material of escalating power levels. First it was the missile spam space wolves and then the fast tank spam blood angels...

Sure, it seems cheaper on paper but the actual costs of supporting the GW business model was much MUCH higher

Just as the on paper cost for getting just a few more ships from outside the conversion kits are inflated to encompass buying a whole new kit when you could wait fir smaller kits that have been promised on stream, ir take some initiative in finding other ways to acquire missing pieces

17 minutes ago, Chucknuckle said:

You could quite easily proxy your entire Squat army using the profile of another faction in 40K.

But yes, this edition change is much more expensive for X Wing than an edition change in 40K is. Depending on the size of your collections and how many factions you play, it could be three times more expensive in X Wing. Best case scenario you're only paying like $50 more in X Wing. But in no way is it cheaper.

By the same logic, if you can proxy Squats you can probably also use the squad builder and a dial app to 'proxy' 2.0.

Going by the cost you have to pay in order to play a faction in the new edition , the 2 things are comparable: core+a conversion kit vs. rulebook+codex. Going by the cost you probably will end up paying to be competitive in the new edition, GW comes way ahead since you will likely need a ton of new models due to power creep.

This is in NZD but the base game is $65, each conversion kit is $75. I would need 2 conversion kits and the base game for a total of $215 just to play what I’ve already bought and a grand total of 3 new miniatures. Awesome.

In comparison I bought the 8th edition Dark Imperium Starter for $190 on day of release with 53 new miniatures, Age of Sigmar starter for $140 with 47 new miniatures, Warmachine 2 player MK III starter for $100 with 28 new miniatures. Admittedly for 40k you needed to buy the indexes for your factions which were around $40, but warscrolls for AoS were free, as were the MK III cards online for WM.

I’m not going to jump in and pay $215 just to play my current investment for X-Wing in 2nd Edition, the exercise shows FFG need better transitional models between editions, they need to put a bit more thought into it.

Cheers

15 hours ago, Wiredin said:

F) But why didn't they do individual kits in the first place?! Have you seen Attack Wing? $10 USD for ONE DIAL kit per ship! My 5 A-wings would have equaled the one conversion kit price.

I) But all the money I spent on these things I cannot use anymore?! How much money have you spent on other consumer products that have lasted 6 years? Chances are most of those consumer products lasted 2. There are probably some of you who buy a new $800-1000 cell phone every year (I personally know a half dozen people who buy a new top of the line iphone yearly..). YOU GOT SIX YEARS out of this stuff, and the prettiest part, the models, are still valuable in the game!!!

J) They really thought this through. There are two or three awesome threads full of summaries of why they did what they did. There is actually a lot more information coming directly from FFG in forms of video interviews than what is online. While we do have a lot of info we also got very little. SO JUST WAIT AND DON'T JUMP THE SHARK. This game you love, you know... X-Wing... it's going to get better!

The rest are great, those 3 are questionable.
F) is completely invalid. Even more so as we have no idea about pricing of the wave 2, etc card packs.
I) is ridiculous considering that every few players got into the game in 2012 ... it was not even avaible internationally in 2012. About half the players I gamed with bought in 2016 or later. And just because you know half a dozen stupid people who buy a $1000 phone each year does not make your point valid. It just means that your circle of acquaintance might have a bad influence on you, because it seems to normalize outrageous behavior.
And lastly J) is just pure hope and faith. And someone may correct me here, but has FFG has not the best track record with their games with wave type releases, right? Power Creep seems to be part of their business model with those games. At least that is what I hear about IA, etc ... now I don't play them, so feel free to correct me there. And we are going to get new cards in the next 2nd edition waves too ... FFG wants to keep selling to us, business and all.

A devils advocate might even suggest that the initial release of X-Wing 2.0 is as good as it gets and freezing at that point might yield the best game experience. °_^

15 hours ago, LordBlades said:

On the other hand, remember when Flames of War released a new edition and whole factions were simply not updated until much later? V4 Mid-War release was only Germans and British. Soviets won't be done until well past the 2 year mark in the new edition I think.

And I still haven't played a V4 game yet, but not cuz I'm salty about the change, I can't or don't find the time or ambition to get a game in.

It was nice to get the new rule books free, but V4 took much steam out of many players' sails (in my area at least). Hope the same doesn't happen for X-Wing.