Are people being wilfully ignorant here?

Tbf, I don't understand people who are up in arms and quitting the game over this, apart from the 'always on' exaggeration mode that is forum norm.

But there have been reasonable points made that explain how the kits miss the mark for some people. So I also fail to understand why these reasonable points need to be waved away and filed under unnecessarily negative kneejerk.

You know, apart from people wanting to fuel the exagerratrix.

IMHO Conversion Kits are a great thing. But i'm also waiting for minor upgrade kits .

A friend has only TIE fighters and Advanced. It's no worth the effort to him to buy the entire GE Kit. With minor upgrades like independent kits for every ship, he can upgrade his ships to second edition. Also with that sort of kit anyone can complete the upgrades to all ships in their collections

41 minutes ago, Howlix said:

Conversion of units and cards already purchased should at least be available to print and put into a sleeve with the old card. We shouldn't have to buy into the game twice just to remain competitive.

But you aren't buying into the game twice. The conversion kits are $50, one of each is barely as much as you're likely to spend on a new wave of ships to remain competitive.

Why is one acceptable and not the other?

You've got to consider the logistics of the 'singles' alternative to conversion packs. Sure, FFG could start preorders right now for singles, and maybe 70% of players will tell FFG ahead of time, and the rest will either be lost or angry players when they realise they've got to wait for the reprint to get in on the game they love again. Sure, FFG could have an enormous and expensive sorting complex where cards are individually bundled for hundreds of thousands of players in a time frame of perhaps 4 months (I'm assuming play testing is ongoing). That'd only be mil\lions upon millions of dollars of additional expense over packs assembled at the factory and distributed in bulk with uniform size. So no, singles are not a viable alternative.

In terms of cost. I'm a full-time University student that gets all their income from part-time work. If you have a budget tighter than mine for X-wing I'd like to hear it. Nevertheless, I'll be getting every single conversion pack, because I'd MUCH rather that than watch my large investment rot in a continually worsening game.

I've never understood the players who buy dozens of packs from each wave, expecting them to simultaneously be fun through multiple plays, competitive for years and never, ever have to buy multiple ace packs to fix them. If they can afford that much plastic crack, they can afford the cover-up too.

I like the conversion kit idea. Granted, I didn't buy 20 of each ship. Most skus I only purchase once, if at all.

The only scum ship I have is the Firespray.

But, lets do some budgeting here. The game comes out on the 13th of September. So 134 days till release. If you have to buy the core at $40 us, and 3 conversion kits it is going to be around $1.50 per day (not including tax)

start saving up. Buy one less pop or coffee in a day. You should be able to get it.

2 minutes ago, Astech said:

You've got to consider the logistics of the 'singles' alternative to conversion packs.

In terms of cost. I'm a full-time University student that gets all their income from part-time work. If you have a budget tighter than mine for X-wing I'd like to hear it.

Family man- £10 a month? (After the initial buy in)...

Singles would indeed be a logistical nightmare and no doubt not even cost effective to buy. But I do feel there is a space for something along the lines of 'fighter packs', where you can kit out say, 3 from each faction. Running at £15 or so. Whatever the specifics, I'm sure there would be pick up on a range of smaller kits.

I would definitely be looking at those but as it stands, only the new core would be something I would buy from FFG. Everything else will have to picked up in the secondary market.

So from my own particular point of view, there is a large gap in what FFG are offering. Really, that's not a problem for me but obviously it's money that won't be going directly to FFG.

2 hours ago, FTS Gecko said:

^ This.

This isn't rocket science, you know.

There's going to be nigh infinite falcons going spare, while almost everyone is going to be short on x-wings, though - and this problem is going to be pretty much universal, so we won't be fixing it on eBay either.

I really wish they'd catered more to the"typical" player - who buys one of every expansion, plus an extra one or two of the smaller stuff depending on how much they're worth, and really only gets a second Large based expansion if they had something specific in mind (IG-88, for example)

This would lead to, sure, two of most small ships, but crucial is the fact that if you buy "one of everything" you already own five TIE Fighters and three x-wings before even a single duplicate is bought.

Needing two boxes each for that issue alone, and yet winding up with four Decimator token sets in the process? Yeah, that's gonna wrankle.

7 minutes ago, Cuz05 said:

Family man- £10 a month? (After the initial buy in)...

Singles would indeed be a logistical nightmare and no doubt not even cost effective to buy. But I do feel there is a space for something along the lines of 'fighter packs', where you can kit out say, 3 from each faction. Running at £15 or so. Whatever the specifics, I'm sure there would be pick up on a range of smaller kits.

I would definitely be looking at those but as it stands, only the new core would be something I would buy from FFG. Everything else will have to picked up in the secondary market.

So from my own particular point of view, there is a large gap in what FFG are offering. Really, that's not a problem for me but obviously it's money that won't be going directly to FFG.

That's about $18 AUD. Currently, more than I spend on X-wing. My overall fun budget is somewhere around $30 AUD a week, but none of that has gone to X-wing for a few months. Armada and movies take that up for the moment.

A Triumvirate of packs for each faction is tricky - because how would you split them? Do you go classic trilogy, early EU and late EU? Regardless, the majority of players will end up having to get all three anyway to use most of their ships. As-is, a majority of 'typical' players are more or less looked after, especially when intra-FLGS training is considered to fit each player.

It's a pretty big buy-in, but tiny in relation to any other major board game on the market, even with one of everything.

5 hours ago, RayGuns said:

Hope FFG reads this,

After doing more research, I'm thinking 2.0 might be a good reboot for this game. However, like many other X-Wing fans I can't wait to actually read the new rules before I commit to this 2.0 reboot. They must not be finished because the PDF is not listed.

I think the main problem a lot of fans are having is with the Conversion Kits. A lot of fans are saying things like, "I cannot justify spending another $200 or more to re-buy basic components (to make it 2.0 playable) after already spending several hundreds of dollars buying all the original core sets and expansions."

The other problem is with the Conversion Kits themselves. For many fans the Conversion Kits fall short or will have a lot of stuff the average fan does not need/want. That means spending $50 on a single Conversion Kit with items they do not need, and this is bad because fans feel they are paying for things they do not want. Also, there is going to be short-comings! Let us be realistic, most fans have more then 4x TIE-Fighters and 2x X-Wings! This means fans will need to buy two or three of these Conversion Kits (FFG's plan all along I suspect) to get enough of what they need, and of course more of what they do not need (higher wastage).

Surely there must be a better way for FFG to help their fans update to 2.0! Sadly I can't think of it, but there must be a better solution. Does anybody have ideas how to make this better?

I’m pissed that the Imperial players are losing the Slave 1 and that the rebel players are losing the Scurgg. Ugh.

26 minutes ago, Astech said:

That's about $18 AUD. Currently, more than I spend on X-wing. My overall fun budget is somewhere around $30 AUD a week, but none of that has gone to X-wing for a few months. Armada and movies take that up for the moment.

A Triumvirate of packs for each faction is tricky... .

You go to the movies?!? ?

Yeah, thats a fair point. I really wouldn't know the best way to split smaller packs but give me a wage, a year and some community feedback and I might figure something out...

I've actually no issues with kits at all, they clearly and fairly neatly suit a lot of people. It's more that gap I'm sitting in. I feel like there is a missed opportunity for FFG there, since there is obviously a reasonable demand for something other.

5 hours ago, Alphastealer said:

I would have preferred a system where players select the quantity of each ship card they need and order it as a bundle.

Surely if the new cards are being printed in bulk it is irrelevant if they are packaged as pre-defined kits or as singles, like magic cards.

That would take a multimillion-dollar logistical distribution and fulfillment system that could only be used once every 5-10 years....would you be willing to pay the price for that system where each ship would probably have to close to $15 each a set of components...Because that is about what it would take for your pipe dream solution.

It is not the cost of printing components that is the cost of things..it is the packaging and getting you things that is the majority of the cost here..the more SKU you have the more things cost. basic logistics...thus FFG made the move to lower costs as much as possible...3-5 SKU. the kits we are getting with the components to cover most players possible. Factions seem like an obvious split..and will be good for the health of the game as it opens more design space by restricting cross-pollination combos.

1 hour ago, GreenDragoon said:

So how many ships do you have that are not covered by the conversion kit?

I would have 2 T-65 not covered, and my son would miss all kind of Ties while we have non of the big ships more than once

So it means 2 core boxes, 1 Rebell kit and 2 Empire, while having 2 T-65 and 4 Tie Fighter models more than we need.

I would really like core boxes without models as this would do the trick for us (or we just stick with 1.0 and don't buy anything)

6 minutes ago, feydruatha said:

the more SKU you have the more things cost. basic logistics...thus FFG made the move to lower costs as much as possible...3-5 SKU.

And yet they continue to sell a separate dice pack instead of just giving you enough dice to actually play the game.

5 minutes ago, marcnelsonjr said:

And yet they continue to sell a separate dice pack instead of just giving you enough dice to actually play the game.

No there is a difference dice pack are probably mostly profit for FFG...the consequence that their starter sets are probably sold at break even or sold at a loss to have a better introductory price point for new players.

Oh, wait FFG/Asmodee is not allowed to make money right? the fact that they make money and can keep making money is the only reason we get a game at all.

4 hours ago, NilsTillander said:

That's one of the best points here. People cried to get "fixes expansions", that were sold 40$ and up (looking at you TIE adv fix pack with a Raider included for 100$), and only fixed one ship (2 for Imp Vets), and now, packs that fixes whole (or large swath) of collections costs 50$ and it's a scandal!

I'm more annoyed at the Core 2.0 that "forces" me to get 2 MORE TIEs and one more x-wing. I would rather get a No-ship core on top of the Conversion kits...

I think a limited release no ship core would be a great idea. They already acknowledge existing players with the conversion kits, why no go a step further. In fact, if they released a stand alone dammage deck, I'd probably just get some 3p templates and be done with it. I have to assume the conversion kits will come with more than enough tokens to play, since they're likely just the card portions of the regular packs.

On the subject of the numbers in the conversion kits, You are only getting boned on generics. 2 xwing kits is 2x the content of the xwing booster so you will still get enough chits to run 4 named xwings in certain combinations.

Personally this seems like a good balance to me. It's not perfect for everyone but frankly that's impossible. In theory they could put out single conversion kits for each ship for a couple dollars a piece but that's not really a realistic option. That many SKUs all at once would be a logistical nightmare and probably a supply and PR disaster.

They could have gone full GW and just said nothing carries over. Buy new stuff while flipping us the bird. Fortunately they're smart enough not to go that route.

As it stands you're getting enough stuff for two of every ship and as many as four for some of the cheap ones. Sure you're gonna get some stuff you may not actually need, but that's true of almost every single product in this line. I've got like 12 copies of VI and probably hundreds of shield tokens. Let's not pretend like this is anything new. It's just the nature of this type of game.

Also, even if you happen to own more of a particular ship that doesn't mean you necessarily need conversion for all of them I have 3 T-65s from 2 core sets and 1 solo add on. I think I've literally never actually put all three on the board. Same with B-wings. I have 2 solos and 1 from rebel Aces but have never used all 3 at once. Consider that when thinking about how many conversion kits you ACTUALLY need. Sure, SOME people might end up deciding they need more than one for one or more factions. There are a non-zero number of people that are gonna have to do that. Probably more Imperial players than the other factions given their swarmy tendencies but its simply not possible to provide an ideal solution for EVERYONE. This actually seems pretty well thought out from what I can tell.

The other thing to remember is that if it's only a ship or two you're short on and need more you don't have to buy an entire $50 conversion kit. Just go buy those one or two 2.0 ships individually.

Lastly I'll just point out that each $50 kit has $700-$1000 worth of supplies were you to have to purchase it all in individual ship packs with plastic included.

"Plastic included" being the key word there. And it's not actually clear what upgrade cards are provided in the conversion kits. Take the X-wings for example, will we get the 6 pilot cards + 5 upgrade cards from the 2.0 Expansion once or twice? There's already been information out there that reveals that the aces will not be provided in duplicate. So no, you're not getting all the supplies you would get if you bought the new ship packs.

And some people seem to be vastly misunderstanding the supply and demand market for these kits on ebay and among friends etc. It will be very easy and cheap to get the large ships, **** we could see Falcons and Ghosts sets on ebay for pennies as the supply will be abundant, but not many are going to want to trade away their needed X-wing, Y-wing, B-wing and TIE fighter stuff and if they did some could end up really paying more than expected.

I'm tempted at this point to just sell all my iconic movie fighters (X-wings in particular) for what I can and just re-buy in with 2.0, keeping the models of the large ships. Especially if the models are going to be better. It'd be far easier to recollect those and pick what I need off ebay than try the reverse.

18 hours ago, RayGuns said:

A No-Ship Core Set option... what a good idea!

What FFG should do with 2.0 is offer a No-Ship Core Set as well as a standard Core Set with ships. Also, because fans have already given FFG lots and lots of money by buying all those original 1.0 expansion packs, offer the Conversion Kits at a more reasonable price.

To bad we can't use our 1.0 "Proof of Purchase" tokens for anything like to send to FFG to get the exact 2.0 upgrades we need.

I agree with all of this. As a child who saved Kenner action figure Proofs of Purchase in the '70s & 80's to get early releases of Boba Fett and Zuckuss, I've been keeping these in the hope that FF might do something similar.

RIGHT NOW would be an amazing time to do that!

Edit: After reading a lot more and watching a few videos it doesn't seem that bad. At least there are a lot of options when they could've easily just said, "screw your collection" completely. I do admire the effort FFG put forward to listen to the community and create a more balanced version based on the feedback. There will never be a perfect solution and it's obvious that a change of this magnitude comes at a cost. Thanks to all who shared knowledge on how all the distribution and packaging process and cost works. It's easier to understand the situations when you have all the information. I'm looking forward to converting my Empire fleet!

P.S.: I liked the suggestion of a limited edition starter set with no minis. I really don't need any more TIEs.

====================

My opinion 2 hours ago: I can't help but feel dupped after making such a huge investment in the game. Why isn't it possible to purchase just the stuff you need? Why put it all in a kit that doesn't meet the needs of most player's collections? I'm sure they are saving a ton on packaging and dropping the bill on our lap instead. To me, the course of action they chose to take feels like they're saying "If you like the game that much and want to play the current meta then fork over the cash, if not, thanks for all the money you gave us and continue to enjoy 1st edition. Hope you have enough people to play it with, bye!"

P.S.: Would be nice if all those proof of purchase I've saved came in handy right now...

On 5/4/2018 at 1:23 AM, redxavier said:

I'm tempted at this point to just sell all my iconic movie fighters (X-wings in particular) for what I can and just re-buy in with 2.0, keeping the models of the large ships. Especially if the models are going to be better. It'd be far easier to recollect those and pick what I need off ebay than try the reverse.

It seems like it, on the face of it, but the newer packs have way more content and a MSRP to match (I think either 25% or 33% more, can't remember which.), with all those cards from wave 1 included in the conversion kits.

So you're probably looking at $20, 25 and 30 USD for small, medium and large blisters respectively in 2.0. A single conversion kit is 2.5 small ships worth, so it's simply the better alternative if you have 3 or more ships in a faction.

2 hours ago, omar.alexis said:

I can't help but feel dupped after making such a huge investment in the game. Why isn't it possible to purchase just the stuff you need? Why put it all in a kit that doesn't meet the needs of most player's collections? I'm sure they are saving a ton on packaging and dropping the bill on our lap instead. To me, the course of action they chose to take feels like they're saying "If you like the game that much and want to play the current meta then fork over the cash, if not, thanks for all the money you gave us and continue to enjoy 1st edition. Hope you have enough people to play it with, bye!"

P.S.: Would be nice if all those proof of purchase I've saved came in handy right now...

I hate to break it to you, but Ghost/Fenn is a $400 (300 US) list. The other top lists are over $200 each. That's worse than buying one of every conversion kit and a core set for 2.0 .

You've no idea the logistics involved in individual packs. Either:

1. They package conversion kits for every single ship separately, then ship them to FLGS and major retailers for public purchase, which would essentially be like releasing every wave of X-wing at once, minus a tiny amount of shipping cost for plastic components. You'd end up with way more medium bases than you'd ever need outside of Epic play. Most packs are either going to have massive surplus or not enough to go around, leading to high cost and low reward for FFG.

And how would you determine what cards to put in each pack? Do you randomise it (hello CCG), distribute it like it is currently in which case you'd need all the sets anyway to have the full range, or do you release a single pack... containing all the cards... hmm.

2. They package and ship kits individually from FFG's website, based on a pre-order system. In which case all the problems of above apply, but you also get massively increased shipping costs (especially for those not in the US).

I'd love to see Proof of Purchase tokens go towards unlocking ships in an online method of play but that's another story altogether.