Last night i was playing CE+CI with 4 friends at our FLGS. Things were looking pretty bad for me. As Amoeba I kind of overused my power early, and lost about 8 ships getting a colony from Guerilla. Near the end of the game, all players were at 4 points, and there was 1 more turn to get to me. In my hand were two negotiates, Classic filch flare, and a card zap. My opponent (Genius) started his encounter with me. Foolishly, he leaned over a bit to adjust his seat, and i caught a little of the red of an attack card. He would win the game. ****. Then i saw it. A morph card was on the top of the discard, in front of everyone to see. He attacked my planet with one ship, and on my planet was 1 ship. there were no allies, mostly because i had betrayed everyone else... Anywho, there were some wargamers across the room playing 40k. It was worth a shot, "Hey did you see what those guys just did!?" And my players bought it and looked over. Like a ninja, i stealthy ninjad the morph card. I used this morph card to tie with the attacker during the encounter! i placed the morph card on the discard in a way where it would slip off, once it slipped off, i reached over and ninjaed it again, making it look like i was just straightening up the discard. I now had 2 ships. I planned to use the morph card again on my turn. Sadly I needed an offensive ally, as the defense got an ally. I would have loved to win on my own, but me and a friend won as he allied with me, i played morph, and we won on ship count. There was no other way to get a win. I afterwords revealed what i had done, and they instantly loved the filch classic flare. shared win is better than no win!

Awesome story! I sent my gaming group a link to this thread. I think they'll enjoy reading it.

nice one. CHEATER

That's what is so interesting about that flare card. This is the first game I've seen where you can obtain a card that tells you that you are allowed to cheat. I can't wait to see the new alien powers and flares in future expansions!

Almost thirty years ago I was playing Cosmic Encounter with a friend. We had just dealt out initial hands when I went out to let our dog in. When I came back to the room we resumed the game. I did not notice anything unusual until I needed a new hand; that is when I noticed the deck was missing. My friend filched the entire deck while I was out of the room.

It could have been worse. In the original Eon version the Butler flare allowed you to secretly put tokens into the warp until you were caught. That gave us twice as much reason to be paranoid.

The entire deck? Wow! Did you have the cosmic quake rules in that edition? If so, it would be detrimental to filch the "entire" deck... you wouldn't keep it for very long.

The cosmic quake rule did not exist in the Eon version.

Thank you for reminding me about the cosmic quake. Now I know not to steal the entire deck if given the chance.

This story got me thinking...

I always assumed a person would filch one card at a time. (Not really sure why I thought that, since it's not required by the flare.) But now I'm thinking, even if the other players don't leave the room, whenever I'm trying to sneak a card off the deck, why not sneak three or nine? Whatever small packet I can manage. Somehow that seems a little wrong, but then again this flare has "wrong" written all over it (whence cometh its charm). Anybody else make their card grabs in chunks? If so, have you been more likely to get caught?

Good story. I once filched a generous stack of cards of the deck. Regretted it soon after as it was obvious at that point that I 'cheated' somewhere since I had a gigantic hand =) I think its better to keep it a secret that you have the filch flare as long as possible.

One question about your scenerio: Did you then cheat twice in one turn? Before the challenge, and then after when you discarded? Since your only allowed to use a flare once per turn, I don't think this should be allowed. Since the filch flare allows you to cheat, when you cheat you are using the flare regardless of whether caught or not. It takes self restraint, but this also goes for other flares. If you've cheated already, you shouldn't play any other flare that turn. Or at least that's the way I understand it.

Zomber said:

Flares can be used once per encounter , not once per turn . After the resolution phase, a new encounter begins and the Filch flare is perefectly legal.

I love reading about stuff like this!

I still think that if we used it in our group, it'd end in bloodshed, tears, or at the very least, whining and petulance. ;-) I might have to suggest that we give it a try and see how we feel about it in play. One of my friends is on her laptop when it's not her turn...I bet it'd be easy to use it with her!

Kobold Curry Chef said:

Re: "whining and petulance." That's why, in college, we called CE the game where you spent 45 minutes to play it, and 2 hours to argue over who won Of course, we were playing Eon with all nine expansions (although we didn't generally use the reverse hexes), and using 3 powers, hidden.

My friend used the classic Filch flare twice in two different games (whenever we get the Filch we leave it up to whoever picked the race to decide which flare to use, and the classic flare doesn't have a lot of fans among my playgroup). Both times he only stole the top card of the deck. Both times it was a 40, and he used it to win on the next turn.

crimhead said:

Yes, I meant challenge, not turn, sorry. However, from the description of what happened, it sounded like he cheated the second time when he discarded the Morph card, which isn't AFTER resolution, it's DURING resolution, which would be the same encounter that he filched the Morph in earlier.

Some believe that using IF you are caught cheating, that it count's as playing the flare. I believe that you are playing the flare when you are attempting the cheat. Whether you are caught or not and have to REVEAL the flare is secondary. By the fact that you are even allowed to cheat, you are using the flare. Thus, you should only be allowed to cheat once per turn, as per the flare restriction. This takes self-discipline in your group. Someone who has the Filch flare can cheat in an encounter, but then they should not play other flares that encounter, even if the cheat wasn't caught.

Zomber said:

Once the ships have gone to the warp and the encounter cards discarded, the resolution is over (unless anyone wants to use a power). It sounds to me like this happened after resolution (clearly the cards had been discarded). Personally, I think once the resolution has been determined, things like placing cards on the discard and putting ships into the warp are merely a formality (mind you the cards would still need to get to the discard before being stolen either way).

I would agree that stealing entails using the flare whether you are caught or not (you can't steal without the flare), but we haven't played Classic Filtch yet so it hasn't come up for me.

If powers can be played after discarding, why not flares? I don't think discarding signifies the end of resolution and the start of the next turn. I like to run a tight ship with the rules, so I'd probably insist on the cheat happened after a known fact in the next turn, most likely the regrouping of someones' ship. In rereading the original story, it's vague as to when the cheat happened exactly. If it was some slight of hand as it was discarded, I cry foul. =)

The argument that any amount of cheating is okay until the Flare must be revealed is that in the rules under Flare Cards on page 13 it states that:

"Flare cards are returned to the player’s hand after being played instead of being discarded."

Since the Classic Filch Flare doesn't exactly get played until you are caught and have to reveal it from your hand (and then returning it afterward) ... it could be argued, as mentioned above, that you can cheat as often as you'd like during a particular encounter ... until you are caught.

Six reasons why cheating doesn't count as playing the flare card and you can cheat to your dirty little heart's content:

1. It's pretty hard to enforce a once-per-encounter limit on an activity that nobody else is aware is happening.
2. Lack of playing any other flares could be a tip-off that the player is up to something sneaky.
3. Classic Wild Filch already breaks the rules about playing flares by not being placed on the table and then returned to your hand.
4. Really, what's the difference between filching one card three times and filching three cards one time?
5. The temptation to over-use the flare is part of what gives it its epic cosmicity.
6. (perhaps most important) The FAQ says it doesn't count as playing the flare until you get caught. (Not that the FAQ is always right, mind you, but in this case it is.)

oatesatm said:

hey Oat, you had me until "Since the Classic Filch Flare doesn't exactly get played until you are caught ..." This is the exact thing I would argue against. I believe the flare is played when you attempt to cheat. Using what you want the conclusion to as proof of that conclusion hurts my logic circuits.

You cheat without actually playing the flare. That's the whole point. The flare is played like any other, once per turn, but it's in secret . On the flare it say's what the 2 cheat's can be: taking ships from the warp, or cards from the deck/discard pile. It seems like a liberty to break an additional rule on top of those: only one flare per turn .

I'm open minded if there is a real reason ... or even 6 reasons , as I look ahead to Bill's post.

Just_a_Bill said:

Thanks for these reasons to think over Bill. I always like your posts and rarely disagree with your takes on the rules.

Let's see here though,.

1. I have a hard time buying the 'cant enforce it rule'. If it's a rule of the game, people will play by it. Gotta at least trust your group enough to follow it. If the other players are the type that may steal your wallet if you're not looking, time to find a new group.
2. Or, the lack of playing flares could be a red herring. Sounds like a reason for the restriction, not against.
3. The ability to break the rule about not placing it down when playing it is for the sake of secrecy, not a loophole to break other rules about flare restrictions. Or so I would think.
4. Although there's no net difference in that example, there are many otheres where there would be diffences. Here's one: Whats the difference between Filching ships in regroup, then Filching cards later in resolution....and Filching ships in regroup, then not being able to play your flare (or others) during the rest of the turn.?
5. I think 'over-use' is exactly what is going on here. Let's not make the Filch flare more than it is. As you all should know, even with a once per turn restriction, it is a major gamechanger.
6. I see you saved the best for last. This may be your strongest arguement. But your statement that the FAQ is not always right is such a major understatement, that I cannot trust it at face value.

Is there some history behind why the FAQ ruled that it doesn't count as playing the flare until you get caught? Was that the intention from the beginning? If so, it doesn't come across in the text. I'll try to remain open minded to your responses & ideas. My disclaimer is that I've not played with the Eon version, and so have not used this flare until now. I'm a Mayfair Vet. Currently in the Final Fantasy version, my group has switched over to the other Filch flare (Not Classic). It's actually a great flare, allowing you to discard an N to cancel and take someone elses flares! We switched over because, well, let's just say I was too good with the Classic Filch during some games.

Zomber said:

I need the preview option. I meant that you cheat without playing the flare faceup on the table... you are still playing it by the very fact that your are allowed to cheat.

Zomber said:

Yes to both questions. Under Eon rules, flares could be used and re-used without limitation, so Eon's original Wild Filch could literally steal as much as he could get away with, as fast as he could pull it off. FFG's Classic Wild Filch is obviously trying to duplicate the original effect, as reinforced by the "surprisingly correct" FAQ entry. I guess I should have made this historical fact one of my reasons.

If it's in the FAQ, it's a rule. No further reasons are required nor would make any difference.

I don't understand how the FAQ could be "wrong". This is an official FFG document. If you want a higher authority, there isn't one. FFG have the final (and only) say.

Now if the FAQ is shown to contradict itself then there is a problem and it is admittedly in error on those paticular points. Have you discovered any such inconsistencies?

crimhead said:

Craploads of them; the FAQ contradicts itself, the rules, and the card texts. Begin your journey of discovery here, young padawan:

www.boardgamegeek.com/article/4670314

Then, to see something resembling an FAQ that is not riddled with errors, check this out:

www.boardgamegeek.com/article/5174367

Just_a_Bill said:

Ok I can accept that FFG made a concious attempt to have the classic Filch flare behave like the model that was created for Eon by listing in the FAQ that attempting to cheat was not considered playing the flare, and therefore not counted against your flare limitation.

So, if FFG had decided to go the other way, and maintain a semblence of the flare limitation of once per turn by declaring in the FAQ that attempting to cheat counts as playing it, would their ruling be 'suprisingly incorrect'? ... Or just a different 'correctness' that players may decide to agree or disagree with ?