We had another tournament, so we get in to a recap of that and some things we learned. Shane is still refining his Latari army, Justin tried out his new Waiqar build for the first time, and Josh's Uthuk continue their winning streak.

After that, we do a little speculation on the two new cards from the Darnati Warriors article. Could one of them be a fix for Rune Golems? Listen to find out (spoiler alert: NOPE).

Here's the shared Google doc for Regionals, feel free to add yours: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1PUDp0l5YULr3cHuCDH43ouuwk_hxsXjp4TSvadB7h_U/edit?usp=sharing

Episode: http://initiativeone.libsyn.com/episode-12-catch-me-if-you-can

I am looking forward to listening, but man, you guys need better advertising ? . You took all the suspense out of the episode!

Really enjoyed this episode and I second most things discussed (yes, of course I love some confirmation bias as much as anyone).

I don't know if this is ok? But if anyone is interested in reading and participating in another thread specifically about the Wraiths and Waiqar vs Uthuk topics:

What is this Uthuk build you guys are using. I think I know most of it, but if you want us to try it out we need the list.

Sounds like a 2 tray and a 1 tray of Threshers, a Warpsrinter/Aggresive 9 tray berserkers with a Front Line Thresher, Insatiable Ravos, and 2 2 tray rippers?

I thought I had posted it somewhere before, but maybe not. It is:

TL;DR: Don’t write off corruption runes just yet, works great with cacophony reaver

I’m really interested to try out corruption runes on my Uthuk build. Right now I run it with a 70pt 3x3 berserker, partially because I need to fill points with just 2xcore 1xIC, but have been more than happy with the results.

I run:

-cacophony reaver

-shield wall

-war sprinter

-aggressive shrieker

I think cacophony reaver is great synergy with corruption runes. Play with the top card revealed, so you’ll always know exactly what your getting out of corruption runes, and if it’s more beneficial to keep for the lethal or wait to spend on panic, you can do that. If the card is worthless use your Rune action to discard it and receive most likely SOME positive effect on the battlefield, meanwhile cycling the panic deck to find the card you really want. Those two cards together give you perfect information and strong control on the next card in the deck. Obvious drawback is your opponent knows when a strong panic card is available and can use it against you if possible, but I still think you have a pretty strong advantage in that overall situation.

What I’ll have to see is if it’s worth saving the 2pts and replacing shield wall, because it’s hard to deny the success of my current order of operations with it:

1. Position, use Warsprinter/Agg SRK for a long charge to weaken target

2. ShieldWall return attack, wear down and defeat enemy over next 1-2 turns

3. Init3 Rally Reform, refresh Shield Wall, Identify new target, return to step 1.

13 hours ago, FranquesEnbiens said:

I thought I had posted it somewhere before, but maybe not. It is:

198/200

Berserkers [50] 3x3
Raven Tabards [2]
Aggressive Shrieker [5]
Total Unit Cost: 57

Flesh Rippers [38] 2x2
Rank Discipline [4]
Total Unit Cost: 42

Ravos the Everhungry [40] 1x1
Insatiable Hunger [3]
Total Unit Cost: 43

Spined Threshers [28] 2x1
Total Unit Cost: 28

Spined Threshers [28] 2x1
Total Unit Cost: 28

Well... my “good list or bad list” filter is nowhere near as refined for RMG as it is Armada, but this list looks like garbage on paper. It looks like you rely nearly entirely on your Threshers and Ravos. Since by all reports it is working, I seem to be missing something. I’m gonna have to proxy some trays and try this out to see how it works.

You guys and Runecasters have seen our local meta-definer and have (justifiably) wondered at my Fire Rune Berserkers acting as a poor man’s archers. Given how craphazard the damage from that unit is, Corruption Rune seems a viable alternative.

I started with an average 1.5 damage per turn for Fire Rune with no rerolls. Bloodfire Witch raises it to around (I think) 2 Damage per turn. Corruption Rune is an average of around 1.7. So now I trade a slight bit of damage for status effects most of the time.

My main concern doing that would then be having a 7th melee unit again and trying to force all of that to get into melee is a pain. Running 6 melee and one ranged alleviated a surprising amount of congestion.

6 hours ago, Church14 said:

Well... my “good list or bad list” filter is nowhere near as refined for RMG as it is Armada, but this list looks like garbage on paper. It looks like you rely nearly entirely on your Threshers and Ravos. Since by all reports it is working, I seem to be missing something. I’m gonna have to proxy some trays and try this out to see how it works.

Five units so that the army can avoid the aforementioned melee congestion. 3x threat three units, two of which can never be lower than threat two, one of which requires 28 wounds before it becomes threat two. The 2x threat two units are the (IMO clearly overpowered) Ravos and the Flesh Rippers--one of the game's fastest units with a built-in surge ability that effectively utilizes their blue dice.

I'm curious as to how anything about the army could be considered bad. Sure, it lacks ranged attacks, tricky rune manipulation, and the RNG gimmicks that Uthunk can do. However, the combination of speed, damage output, consistency, and durability are far beyond anything else I've seen in this game. Tricks are cute, but the best lists I've seen in this game are upgrade light to avoid RNG as well as diminishing returns via synergistic breakdowns.

By comparison, I could mirror the amount of units and threat with Waiqar by going:

Ardus with Ancient Technique

2x3 tray Wraiths with Undying Hatred

Four tray DeathKnights with Rank Discipline

Nine tray Reanimates with Raven Tabards and Aggressive Drummer

And...it would be horrible by comparison. Worse dials, worse speed, less durability, and inconsistent damage output. There is a case to be made that this is an apples to oranges comparison, but I fail to see what kind of tricks Waiqar can pull that put them on the same power level as Uthuk. Blight is solid, but easily dealt with by Daqan. Uthuk crash in so rapidly that there isn't much of a chance to load them with blight--at best you buy a turn of damage offset before your archers get pulled into melee (and I can tell you from experience that speedbump Lancers don't last long against Uthuk). I've seen a case for Reanimate bricks and Maro regen as well. I've also seen a regen build not only still lose to this same Uthuk list, but also do even worse against the field. In particular, Latari just runs circles around the molasses footed Reanimates.

Not necessarily a sky is falling moment, but Uthuk and Latari have kicked up the power level quite quickly. I'm not sure many people are putting down Uthuk lists beyond what they can make from two core sets, but it gets mean in a hurry.

To expand a little further, I'll also make the case that the mission system--while it does emphasize objectives--does not at all deter straight-up killdozing as the primary strategy in the game.

In comparison to Runewars, Legion creates a hierarchy of (1) mission-based scoring and if there is a tie on objective points (2) then points killed. Runewars collapses the two with varying impact in terms of how many points can be accrued through objective play. To this end, playing to objectives helps you win, but it isn't the sole determinant of who wins. Killing the opponent's units not only limits their ability to gain objective points, but also has the dual function of accruing points toward the end game. Consequently, there is an inherent premium on threat (which our local meta has seen kicked up a lot) and durability. The best units have both. Threat+durability is joined, of course, by unit cost and the crucial aspect of speed (both in terms of initiative and movement).

Taken as a totality, the traits one looks for in this game is a combination of threat, durability, cost efficiency, and speed. If you have these elements, you are always playing the mission , because a large part of all missions is simply killdozing the opponent. Uthuk have an unholy union of these traits--I hope that Wraiths and Scouts help out the original two armies in this regard, but I am a bit skeptical based on what has been spoiled for them so far.

16 minutes ago, JGrand said:

I'm   curious as to how anything about the army could be considered bad. Sure, it lacks ranged attacks, tricky rune manipulation, and the RNG gimmicks that Uthunk can do. However, the combination of speed, damage output, cons  istency, and durability are far beyond anything else I've seen in this game. Tricks are cute, but the best lists I've seen in this game are upgrade light to avoid RNG as well as diminishing  returns via synergistic breakdowns. 

The two 2 tray thresher and Ravos are good. My issue is with the 4 tray Rank Discipline Rippers and the BerserkerStar.

I keep seeing the 4 tray rippers with RD and I’m hoping it’s because Uthuk players are just missing other upgrades. Either bust it out into two 2 trays or find the point and bring Moment of Inspiration. Either change ups damage output or makes winning every one of the past and current tourney objectives easier.

Swap out Raven Tabards for Warsprinter. One more point to increase threat range dramatically, make it easier to win charge duels, and open up possibilities for ignoring immobilize and the ridiculous double charge (or melee+charge). Who cares if both are 1/1 figures? If they have that kind of ranged threat, mess with them until you get those 4 red runes and then jump straight to melee.

Garbage was the wrong word. Frustrating is the word. I see a list that is similar to what I would run given access to more figures, except every change seems for the worse. A bunch of counterproductive or irrelevant upgrades makes me think “bad” even if they are on good units. Again, since it is clearly working, I want to figure out what I’m missing to see if the upgrade choices are actually great ones.

32 minutes ago, JGrand said:

By  comparison, I could mirror the amount of units and threat with Waiqar by going:

Ardus with An  cient Technique

2x3 tray Wraiths with Undying Hatred

Four tray DeathKnights with Rank Discipline

Nine tray Reanimates with Rav  en Tabards and Aggressive Drummer 

Sorry for double post, but why would you try to make the equivalent list for Waiqar? They fundamentally play differently. Of course their version of a good Uthuk list will suffer. Take a top tier Waiqar list and make the Uthuk equivalent. It won’t (or shouldn’t) do as well.

15 minutes ago, Church14 said:

The two 2 tray thresher and Ravos are good. My issue is with the 4 tray Rank Discipline Rippers and the BerserkerStar.

I keep seeing the 4 tray rippers with RD and I’m hoping it’s because Uthuk players are just missing other upgrades. Either bust it out into two 2 trays or find the point and bring Moment of Inspiration. Either change ups damage output or makes winning every one of the past and current tourney objectives easier.

 

Swap out Raven Tabards for Warsprinter. One more point to increase threat range dramatically, make it easier to win charge duels, and open up possibilities for ignoring immobilize and the ridiculous double charge (or melee+charge). Who cares if both are 1/1 figures? If they have that kind of ranged threat, mess with them until you get those 4 red runes and then jump straight to melee.

Bust into two trays? As you mention, at some point there is too much of a logjam in terms of what can fit into melee. It is also more expensive to break into two, you lose any re-roll ability, and fall to threat one at a meager six damage. I could see the case for Moment of Inspiration though.

Raven Tabards vs. Warsprinter might just come down to a fundamental difference of opinion. Raven Tabards impacts the game every time the Berzerkers move (and the mindgame of dial setting). Warsprinter requires red runes to cooperate with you. Plus, for allies to benefit, you have to have your command tool already revealed with the Berzerkers. Flesh Rippers already have a two-move march modifier. Spine Threshers have a one-move white march modifier. Ravos can benefit, but he should 100% of the time have Insatiable Hunger (not quite the same in terms of when it procs, but helps with the close-in regardless). I'd much rather have the guaranteed bonus of something like Raven Tabards vs. something that requires a bit of luck/situational use/functions in a redundant manner. I get it; I simply believe guaranteed>random/situational, even if the random/situational can yield a higher ceiling.

20 minutes ago, Church14 said:

Sorry for double post, but why would you try to make the equivalent list for Waiqar? They fundamentally play differently. Of course their version of a good Uthuk list will suffer. Take a top tier Waiqar list and make the Uthuk equivalent. It won’t (or shouldn’t) do as well.

As I mentioned, it is a bit apples to oranges. At the same time, I tend to think that cost-efficient units that put out consistent damage is the natural end point for this game. There aren't defense dice to factor into combats, and with the control of re-rolls there is less randomness in damage output. My early take on Uthuk was that the Spined Threshers would be the star unit because of their efficiency. In practice, I might have undersold them. I am not sure there can be a unit that efficient unless all the other armies have one. And that's before we factor in the blatant power creep that is Ravos himself leading the way.

What I like about Josh's build is that it is stripped-to-the-bone damage efficiency that the other lists can't match. Paradoxically, Uthuk can do tricky stuff better than any non-Latari army (as we mentioned on the podcast with the Corruption Rune). I'm just not sure that tricky stuff matters when you can be fast/durable/hard-hitting and just avoid the randomness and point sink that it costs to make the tricks work.

I can’t say that your take is wrong. I feel like objectives typically make my Uthuk game scores go from being an okay combat win for me to a decisive 8-10 tournament point win. I’m not sure objectives have flipped a game from a win to a loss or vise versa for me

I tried my own take on that list. Split the Rippers up and dropped the berserkers to a 6 tray. By doing that, I could add upgrades and make a more capable infantry block that serves largely the same purpose. It ended up being a cross between the list listed above and what Ive been runnng.

The basic archetype seems really solid. I still feel like the upgrades in the original list posted aren’t optimized, but I am also willing to concede that it may just be due to playstyles.

On 5/4/2018 at 3:47 PM, Church14 said:

The two 2 tray thresher and Ravos are good. My issue is with the 4 tray Rank Discipline Rippers and the BerserkerStar.

I keep seeing the 4 tray rippers with RD and I’m hoping it’s because Uthuk players are just missing other upgrades. Either bust it out into two 2 trays or find the point and bring Moment of Inspiration. Either change ups damage output or makes winning every one of the past and current tourney objectives easier.

Swap out Raven Tabards for Warsprinter. One more point to increase threat range dramatically, make it easier to win charge duels, and open up possibilities for ignoring immobilize and the ridiculous double charge (or melee+charge). Who cares if both are 1/1 figures? If they have that kind of ranged threat, mess with them until you get those 4 red runes and then jump straight to melee.

Garbage was the wrong word. Frustrating is the word. I see a list that is similar to what I would run given access to more figures, except every change seems for the worse. A bunch of counterproductive or irrelevant upgrades makes me think “bad” even if they are on good units. Again, since it is clearly working, I want to figure out what I’m missing to see if the upgrade choices are actually great ones.

That's the thing - the Berserkerstar isn't one at all, it just looks like one because it's big. I deliberately keep it light on upgrades.

Justin has covered everything as well as I could have explained it, but the RT/Shrieker has been working well for me. I am not a fan of using the skill action, and like each unit to function completely independently. I actually think that's a strength for this army - each unit is completely self-contained, so the army is very flexible.

The Rippers I use almost exclusively as a flanker, so I am fine with their damage output from RRBB with extra rerolls. The 4 tray can also hold up a little while in combat if you need them to, and Rank keeps them an effective threat for longer. I very rarely want to rally with them, so the way I play them the Rank pays more dividends for sure than probably just the one or two uses of Moment I would get.

My goal isn't really to maximize the upgrades, it's to maximize the units on the table. I haven't yet found any of them to be counterproductive or irrelevant...in fact, every one of the four has been completely relevant to how I play the army. It sounds like we have a different approach to the army, which is cool, and we have both been having success, so it's fun that there are multiple ways to do it.

I'm listening to the episode again because I know I didn't catch everything. When Mr. Latari (sorry, I still can't keep your names straight, except now I know Josh = Uthuk guy)...anyway, when Mr. Latari was talking about Storm Sorceresses, he mentioned that they can be immediately destroyed in his 2x1 of archers, and that it is better if you had a back rank or could stick her in the middle tray of the front rank. I'm pretty sure the FAQ clarifies that as long as the unit is down to a single rank, any figure upgrades there are legal targets without using accuracy. The only time the middle tray keeps a figure safe is if it is the last remaining figure in that middle tray such that destroying that figure would split the unit into two units. Not trying to pick nits here, but I just wanted to make sure that you guys and the rest of the community are all on the same page with regard to the rules.

I like that you guys are really grappling with this Ravos issue. It's very interesting. I just wish I had a way to apply it - nobody here runs Uthuk, although two of us now own them. I'm hip-deep in Waiqar, but once I pick up the Uthuk Command pack, I may try unleashing them on the unsuspecting local players.

We have two Uthuk players and we are working on counter strategies. They aren’t getting far. We only found three that have really seemed to work.

1) Having archers chip him while he slams into a blocker. As people have noted, this is far easier said than done.

2) Force him to run into the front edge of infantry. Not a tiny block, but at least 6 trays. His end of turn eat and unique surge are much weaker here than against most other units. Sure, he kills 2 trays, but then the other 4-10 trays hit back hard. Like option 1, easier said than done. The two times I’ve done this are with Triumphant Cry and Warsprinter/Aggresive. Mind you, that’s out of the three times Ive played against Uthuk.

3) Isolate Ravos and use his self immolation to finish him. This is very hard to do, but it is how I typically lost Ravos.

@Parakitor Thanks for that, and I hope we didn't cause any confusion. I don't remember exactly what we said about it, but yeah, the point was basically that absent a back rank, and the ability to be the only figure in a center tray, she can get sniped out of a 2x1 unit easily, and there's no reason not to if you are doing damage. The RRG and FAQ do clarify exactly how damage works for figure upgrades. Oh, and Shane is the Latari player.

I definitely recommend playing at least a game or two against Ravos (with Insatiable Hunger), if only to see how he works. Uthuk is hard to deal with in general, and they really seem to catch people off guard the first time you play against them. If you are planning on a Regional, I definitely would avoid that being your first time seeing Uthuk across the table if at all possible.

@Church14 We are working on the same thing here, and the Latari may be the best for the isolation plan with their movement. I think that in particular is something Shane intends to keep exploring, and I'll have to see if I can play around that with him.