3 hours ago, PanchoX1 said:

Yes, I don't think there will be much trouble with the expansions in general but he's got a lot of core sets in stock. I just don't see those moving at MSRP. At least not in this rural community.

Yeah, I just got a second TFA core set to finally have a second TFA damage deck for my wife. Basically one week later they announced 2.0 FML. Still, I am salty about that, but can hardly blame FFG for that. It's a good time to use those core sets as price support. ^-^

7 hours ago, SEApocalypse said:

Yeah, I just got a second TFA core set to finally have a second TFA damage deck for my wife. Basically one week later they announced 2.0 FML. Still, I am salty about that, but can hardly blame FFG for that. It's a good time to use those core sets as price support. ^-^

Yeah, I'm finally getting one of those cool Boba decks in a week or two and it'll be gone. And I had doubled down on getting another Scum pack for harpoons because it seemed like that's where Imperials were at. Still excited though!

On 5/3/2018 at 6:23 AM, HolySorcerer said:

You are insane if you think they are manufacturing those kits for $7.

It’s probably not far off as an estimate. FFG is clearly selling each kit at the base price of most board games.

If you look at L5R then you can see it has about 250 cards and lots of punch tokens. These kits will have as a rough estimate 140 pilot cards, probably 100+ upgrade cards and a whole of of card board dials and ship bases.

L5R Core is $40 Recommended Retail. This is $50.

Whether that is reasonable to you or not I guess is your decision. FFG generally price stuff high and there has been a general price increase across their X-Wing products.

Could the conversion kit be cheaper? Probably. But the price seems in line with FFG pricing.

On 5/2/2018 at 2:23 PM, HolySorcerer said:

You are insane if you think they are manufacturing those kits for $7.

Actually, I’d be surprised if it’s more than $4.

But, as has been pointed out, even if the kits cost $7 to manufacture, that translates to only about $6 in profit for FFG to cover warehousing, design & development, advertising, payrol, etc... due to markups along the retail chain.

On 5/2/2018 at 2:59 PM, Parakitor said:

I don't know about manufacturing, but I know Kickstarter works because people get the money up front, then produce the product. FFG as a major games company can't do that. There are so many man hours and other costs that have gone into X-wing Second Edition already, and these conversion kits are "Thank you" letters to the long-time fans of the game. The reason it's $50 for a conversion kit is precisely because there are no expensive plastic models.

Anecdote: It cost me $30 just to print full-color components of Heroes of the Aturi Cluster. No plastic bases, no card board, just somewhat nice paper. These conversion kits probably cost more than $7 just for printing, even in China. Maybe. Not sure about that last statement.

You printed one copy of a single booklet and game elements on “nice paper,”probably at a print shop or Staples, right? These conversion kits are being mass produced in bulk by the thousands.

There are websites were you can print 65-80 page books at a cost of about $3 or less a book. The more you print, the cheaper the cost per book. This is no different. These kits are dirt cheap and they know it.

2 minutes ago, Forgottenlore said:

But, as has been pointed out, even if the kits cost $7 to manufacture, that translates to only about $6 in profit for FFG to cover warehousing, design & development, advertising, payrol, etc... due to markups along the retail chain.

They could have sold them for $20-$25 and made the same amount of money without all the buyers remorse.

10 minutes ago, Boris_the_Dwarf said:

They could have sold them for $20-$25 and made the same amount of money without all the buyers remorse.

No, they couldn’t.

If this much stuff could be created and sold for that price there would be companies doing so.

The cynical part of me thinks part of the reason for the new edition is because the margins for the expansions weren't working anymore.

46 minutes ago, Boris_the_Dwarf said:

They could have sold them for $20-$25 and made the same amount of money without all the buyers remorse.

Out of curiosity, do you know what the number one expense of most companies is?

I'll give you a hint: it's not the cost of the raw materials or even the cost to manufacture their products.

Next question: do you know what happens when a company doesn't have a large enough profit margin to cover their expenses? Profit margin on a per-product bases is Gross Profit, but Gross Profit has to cover all expenses. Net Profit is what you have left over after paying for all of the company's expenses - not just the ones that go into manufacturing the product. So what happens if the Net Profit is less than zero?

I'd be very surprised if they could make the same amount of money at a $20-25 price point. If they could do that, they would, since they would enjoy much larger volumes of sales at a price point half of what they're charging. How much profit margin do you think they are making? How much profit margin do you think the distributors are making? And how much profit margin do you think retailers are making? If you think $20-25 would make money, show your work.

@Freeptop

They have had this explained to them at least 3 times now in assorted threads. They don’t seem interested in logistical realities, they just want to complain.

On 5/3/2018 at 2:04 AM, CoffeeMinion said:

Y'know what I mean? None of this is bad per se, but boy does it disincline me to spend more on X-Wing until 2e drops.

On the flipside, I bought Rebel Aces and Royal intercepters and Guns for Hire because of those sweet paint jobs.

13 hours ago, SEApocalypse said:

Yeah, I just got a second TFA core set to finally have a second TFA damage deck for my wife. Basically one week later they announced 2.0 FML. Still, I am salty about that, but can hardly blame FFG for that. It's a good time to use those core sets as price support. ^-^

Nice thing is if you preorder the new core from either FLGS or FFG you’ll get a 2nd damage deck. Although it’s still a downside you bought a core for the thing that just became obsolete come September. (Well if you want to play official stuff anyway).

3 hours ago, FlyingAnchors said:

Nice thing is if you preorder the new core from either FLGS or FFG you’ll get a 2nd damage deck. Although it’s still a downside you bought a core for the thing that just became obsolete come September. (Well if you want to play official stuff anyway).

My FLGS has still no conformation on getting the second damage deck and the price for pre-ordering a core set from FFG is $111 ... but I really would get a second damage deck. ?

On 5/2/2018 at 8:04 PM, CoffeeMinion said:

For the record, I'm actually pretty okay with both 2e itself and the way it's being handled. I don't like having chunks of my collection stuck behind the need for upgrade packs, but I get why it was done this way and for the most part I'm okay with it.

The real downside that I'm feeling now is that this totally kills my inclination to buy more ships in the remaining 1e era. Like I'd recently contemplated buying another Harpoon Expansion Pack to open up some specific build options, but now there's only marginal value in flying those couple of builds for the next few months versus just saving the money for later update packs and flying something else. Similarly, I was super stoked for the X-Wing and U-Wing fix pack, and the Reaper preview looked awesome too... but now suddenly the X and U fixes are going to come to me in the Rebel update whether I buy the standalone pack or not, and now I'd honestly rather put the $30 for the Reaper toward the $50 I need to get all the rest of my Imps legal in 2e.

Y'know what I mean? None of this is bad per se, but boy does it disincline me to spend more on X-Wing until 2e drops.

You know I'm kind of in the same boat. I fully support everything they are doing in 2.0, but yeah at this point I don't really see myself buying anything for 1.0 just because it comes with the overhead of having to convert it later. As it stands I'm on the line for 250 bucks to convert my collection and get it 2.0 ready, adding more ships just means that whatever ship I buy, I have to make sure its either covered by the conversion kit I'm already getting or I may need to buy additional conversion kits which kind of kills whatever discount you might get for buying into 1.0. I don't plan on playing any X-Wing at all until 2.0 comes out, so its a dead game until then and really I kind of want whatever new versions of 1.0 models come out .. So for example I'm interested in getting another K-Wing but at this point, the conversion kit only covers the one I have and if and when they re-release the K-Wing they may have a new model so I don't really want to get the 1.0 version.

So yeah, this announcement pretty much put X-Wing back on the shelf until 2.0 comes out and put a full stop on any purchases until then for me.

6 hours ago, Sithborg said:

The cynical part of me thinks part of the reason for the new edition is because the margins for the expansions weren't working anymore.

I had the same thought. This was a huge undertaking that they had to know would alienate their more casual customer base who couldn’t or wouldn’t be able to justify a massive buy-in expense for a game that has otherwise been relatively cheap just to keep playing with what they have in a new version.

And yet, they did it anyway.

It isn’t “cynical” to recognize that FFG is a business who has to constantly think up new ways to generate revenue for itself. It’s wisdom.

6 hours ago, Sithborg said:

The cynical part of me thinks part of the reason for the new edition is because the margins for the expansions weren't working anymore.

It's not cynical, but unreasonable in context that the margins were increases several times in 1.0 already. Small ships in my local area used to be €11.99, my latest gunboats were 18€ already and the MSRP was increased by iirc 25% already in the past. So the new increase in price per expansion is roughly similar the overall price increase we had seen in the past 6 years with X-Wing.

On 5/2/2018 at 2:20 PM, Tvboy said:

As long as every X-Wing player in existence (including all new players until 2.0 packs catches up to 1.0) buys at least any 2 conversion kits, FFG is going to make a **** ton of money off of us and probably couldn't care less that sales are going to drop between now and September. Those kits probably cost less than $7 each to manufacture and ship. 2e is going to be a masterfully crafted and calculated windfall for FFG.

This isn't a charity. Maybe 3D print your own if the waves are that salty m8.

Something else I would point out with regards to price is how many additional products you can sell at the lower cost.

If you can sell 60 units at $50 but a reduction to $30 only sells 65 or 70 units or even 80 units then you still price the thing at $50. You need to sell another 40 units at the lower price or 100 altogether to be at the same spot you were at $50. It isn't just a question of what it costs to produce the product that determines the MSRP.

I suspect that the market for these kinds of games does not particularly increase when the cost is reduced or at least does not increase in direct proportion to any reduction in the price point.

4 hours ago, SEApocalypse said:

It's not cynical, but unreasonable in context that the margins were increases several times in 1.0 already. Small ships in my local area used to be €11.99, my latest gunboats were 18€ already and the MSRP was increased by iirc 25% already in the past. So the new increase in price per expansion is roughly similar the overall price increase we had seen in the past 6 years with X-Wing.

I think that was less FFG's fault than it was a conversion rate issue.

5 hours ago, Boris_the_Dwarf said:

I had the same thought. This was a huge undertaking that they had to know would alienate their more casual customer base who couldn’t or wouldn’t be able to justify a massive buy-in expense for a game that has otherwise been relatively cheap just to keep playing with what they have in a new version.

And yet, they did it anyway.

It isn’t “cynical” to recognize that FFG is a business who has to constantly think up new ways to generate revenue for itself. It’s wisdom.

On the other hand, it isn't hard to acknowledge some of the limitations of the initial design. And I do believe the designers when they say that they did have some frustrations designing with what they were given. The concept of the color of tokens is a pretty great idea that allows them to create new ones, while at the same time not having to create specific new counters.

Saw and the Reaper are getting 1.0 & 2.0 content, and I doubt any of it will be in their factions conversion kit.

On ‎5‎/‎6‎/‎2018 at 8:22 PM, SEApocalypse said:

With all the improvements on the X-Wing, those things are most likely in 2.0 back to a maximum of 4 per 100pt squadron.

They're going to a 200pt system (it equals the 100pt of before, they just added a 1/2 point option).

Someone said they were concerned about needing the app to calculate/build a squad. They'll be releasing a pdf of the costs every time they update, so you'll still be able to do by paper and pencil, "If you don't have access to the app, or if you like doing the math by hand."

I don't know what distributer markup is, but stores usually by board games at 40%-50% of MSRP. (I'm thinking it's averaged at 44%.) Unless it's Games Workshop, in which case I believe it to be 105% of MSRP.

13 hours ago, Boris_the_Dwarf said:

Actually, I’d be surprised if it’s more than $4.

I think 7$ is a fair guess, however, nobody seems to have added the plastic medium sized bases these are all coming with.

There is also a new cost with 2.0: the app. Updating and keeping it working is an added cost that has to be accounted for in profits.

People have pointed out the massive cost of payroll that has to be paid by profits, but they haven't specified the insurance or retirement costs that also included. Furthermore, they need to be able to develop new product - not just X-Wing - with the proceeds.

But the granddaddy of hidden costs, has to be the Star Wars license itself.

7 hours ago, Boris_the_Dwarf said:

It isn’t “cynical” to recognize that FFG is a business who has to constantly think up new ways to generate revenue for itself. It’s wisdom.

No, what's cynical is to be worried about the playmat conversion kits that will be necessary to make Bespin and the Starfield 2.0 compliant.

(I said sarcastic, right?)

18 hours ago, Sithborg said:

I think that was less FFG's fault than it was a conversion rate issue.

On the other hand, it isn't hard to acknowledge some of the limitations of the initial design. And I do believe the designers when they say that they did have some frustrations designing with what they were given. The concept of the color of tokens is a pretty great idea that allows them to create new ones, while at the same time not having to create specific new counters.

People post words of encouragement and you try to counter them with a different argument. Same ol’ Sithborg. I guess it’s true, the more things change, the more they stay the same.

On 5/2/2018 at 7:59 PM, Parakitor said:

I don't know about manufacturing, but I know Kickstarter works because people get the money up front, then produce the product. FFG as a major games company can't do that. There are so many man hours and other costs that have gone into X-wing Second Edition already, and these conversion kits are "Thank you" letters to the long-time fans of the game. The reason it's $50 for a conversion kit is precisely because there are no expensive plastic models.

Anecdote: It cost me $30 just to print full-color components of Heroes of the Aturi Cluster. No plastic bases, no card board, just somewhat nice paper. These conversion kits probably cost more than $7 just for printing, even in China. Maybe. Not sure about that last statement.

Haha a "Thank You Letter"

If FFG wants to truly Thank their customers for their long-time investment then they could easily make PDF versions of all conversion kits available to download for free, those that wanted perfect quality items can still buy the kits, those customers that aren't as bothered, or may have limited money could print out on paper, remember there some players who have been paying since day one, and could now end up spending another $250 to buy all the kits, plus needing the new core set for the rules. The paper would be flimsy, the quality would be no where near as good as the kits, but it would allow FFG players a choice, and a way to continue playing and saving to be buy the physical items over time, **** they could even bring out a Medium Base Pack with maybe 2 bases in it.

That is how you Thank Loyal Customers

On 5/7/2018 at 10:37 PM, Boris_the_Dwarf said:

They could have sold them for $20-$25 and made the same amount of money without all the buyers remorse.

Sure.. then your local gaming store makes no money on them and doesn't carry them.