On 5/2/2018 at 8:57 PM, Admiral Deathrain said:

No concrete numbers as I am not in the industry, but consider this: Printer ink is worth more than human blood (this factoid may or may not be accurate, but it is close enough)

It's off by more than factor 2000
It's still off by factor of 10 or so if you mean actual consumer printer ink and about correct if you meant the extra expensive "original" Cartridge which is 99% copy protection and less than 1% paying for ink , that's the one were they subsidize the printer for you and rip you off with the ink.

Printing is dirt cheap. Human blood goes for about $1000 per liter, because it's a critical ingredient for pharmacy products.

47 minutes ago, SEApocalypse said:

Human blood goes for about $1000 per liter, because it's a critical ingredient for pharmacy products.

My take away from that is that a quarter liter of blood can cover my initial 2.0 buy in.

10 hours ago, Sithborg said:

Oooh, a third Striker...

Yep. Not going to be getting the imperial conversion kit for awhile but I do love the model so much I need at least 3.

3 minutes ago, WWHSD said:

My take away from that is that a quarter liter of blood can cover my initial 2.0 buy in.

No, because the blood places need to mark it up, and then there’s the distributors. So as a manufacturer you’ve got to sell your blood at $250 a liter, then the distributor sells it to the drug companies for $500 a liter. So your quarter liter will really only get you about $60.

Or did I just cross the streams?

Just now, Forgottenlore said:

No, because the blood places need to mark it up, and then there’s the distributors. So as a manufacturer you’ve got to sell your blood at $250 a liter, then the distributor sells it to the drug companies for $500 a liter. So your quarter liter will really only get you about $60.

Or did I just cross the streams?

So cut out the middle man and plan on giving up a half liter?

1 hour ago, SEApocalypse said:

It's off by more than factor 2000
It's still off by factor of 10 or so if you mean actual consumer printer ink and about correct if you meant the extra expensive "original" Cartridge which is 99% copy protection and less than 1% paying for ink , that's the one were they subsidize the printer for you and rip you off with the ink.

Printing is dirt cheap. Human blood goes for about $1000 per liter, because it's a critical ingredient for pharmacy products.

Eeeeeh close enough

Still, I'm pretty sure Kickstarter projects that had their numbers kind of open showed us that printing is by no means as cheap as you'd think, predominantly when it comes to thicker cardboard like the tokens and base inserts.

6 minutes ago, Admiral Deathrain said:

Eeeeeh close enough

Still, I'm pretty sure Kickstarter projects that had their numbers kind of open showed us that printing is by no means as cheap as you'd think, predominantly when it comes to thicker cardboard like the tokens and base inserts.

Size does matter. Colors matters as well. Paper Quality too. And what matters most is numbers. Printing 10,000 of the same thing is dirt cheap, etc

1 hour ago, WWHSD said:

My take away from that is that a quarter liter of blood can cover my initial 2.0 buy in.

To many homeless people are selling their blood for cheap. So you will not get the kind of money they are making with it. ?

In addition, industrial printing processes for board games don't work like home printers. They're far faster and more economical. Perhaps $1 per conversion kit for cards is appropriate. I think the real cost of these products comes from R&D, distribution and play testing.

The development of 2.0 has clearly been a long time in the making, and is aiming for the pinnacle of wargaming. That costs millions, but more importantly it costs the time of their top developers. In order for this investment into X-wing to be better than all others, they need to get a huge return on that investment into the skill of their employees.

While the individual manufacture of cards is cheap, there's perhaps two hundred thousand players looking to get conversion sets. Each set has 150+ cards, 2-4 plastic bases, an enormous amount of cardboard tokens, no doubt a rule book on converting your fleet and probably a few more bits and bobs to boot. Each of those has to be manufactured separately, then shipped to a central location for sorting and packaging, then those bulk goods have to be shipped to distribution hubs around the globe. From there, they're shipped to thousands of retailers for sale to the public.

Finally there's play testing, which can be considered another time cost of players, where the missed opportunity to have them refine other games means that you need a good return on the time they spend refining X-wing for 2nd edition.

Put all that together and I'd give a ballpark figure of $30 USD to get the product to your FLGS. Retailing for $50 USD is a 40% markup from cost, which is actually under that which discount stores place most of their products. In essence, FFG is marketing these packages at the cheapest cost that can be justified to the bigwigs in their corporation.

My FLGS had a May the Fourth sale, so I bought a few of the ships that I don't have plastic for but will have 2e cardboard for.

I don;t think this is a worry tbh.

On Wednesday, May 02, 2018 at 8:23 PM, HolySorcerer said:

You are insane if you think they are manufacturing those kits for $7.

It sounds about right to me. Cards and cardboard are super cheap to produce, especially in large volumes.

On 5/3/2018 at 7:58 AM, Commander Kaine said:

I mean... Aside from quad TLT-s and various swarms, what list you can't run with it? How do you know those builds will be even good?

It seems support is more important than before... maybe you don't want to run 5 naked generics anymore, rather you would run a reaper or a lambda to support them.

I think it is fair. If you spent thousands of dollars on this game, I think it is not very fitting to complain about it being expensive. There isn't a solution that is going to make everyone happy. I think the conversion kits hit a good middle ground.

Well, for one, you can't fly three x wings.

You know, the ones from the starter pack, the x wing expansion, and the rebel transport?

You don't need to have bought a single duplicate expansion, and the upgrade kit is already insufficient.

On 5/2/2018 at 2:23 PM, HolySorcerer said:

You are insane if you think they are manufacturing those kits for $7.

yeah its more like $5 or $6.

printing on cardstock and cardboard is very nearly free with asian labor situation and trade being what it is. the main cost is development and graphic design, which is spread across tens of thousands of sales

24 minutes ago, Reiver said:

Well, for one, you can't fly three x wings.

You know, the ones from the starter pack, the x wing expansion, and the rebel transport?

You don't need to have bought a single duplicate expansion, and the upgrade kit is already insufficient.

Are you forgetting the X-wing in the new core set? We've been told that is a required purchase to play 2.0.

32 minutes ago, Reiver said:

Well, for one, you can't fly three x wings.

You know, the ones from the starter pack, the x wing expansion, and the rebel transport?

You don't need to have bought a single duplicate expansion, and the upgrade kit is already insufficient.

Yes you can? You will need a starter box for the templates and tokens and damage cards... and that has an X-Wing.

12 minutes ago, Commander Kaine said:

Yes you can? You will need a starter box for the templates and tokens and damage cards... and that has an X-Wing.

you missed the point entirely.

1 x-wing from old core.

1 x-wing from old x-wing expac

1 x-wing from rebel transport

thats 3

1 x-wing from 2.0 core

thats 4

but you'll have 2 conversions from the conversion pack and 1 from the new core, thus 1 model you cant fly generic.

24 minutes ago, colki said:

Are you forgetting the X-wing in the new core set? We've been told that is a required purchase to play 2.0.

no, you'll be able to fly 3 of your 4 models after that

4 minutes ago, Vontoothskie said:

but you'll have 2 conversions from the conversion pack and 1 from the new core, thus 1 model you cant fly generic.

3 minutes ago, Vontoothskie said:

no, you'll be able to fly 3 of your 4 models after that

Assuming, of course, that FFG hasn't changed the price of the T-65 from 4-a-list to 3-a-list, making the argument invalid.

Of course, if you bought a Rebel Transport you've pretty clearly got the capital to trade for your fourth X-wing conversion from someone like me, who only owns 1 (classic core set; not much use for it).

There's pretty much no scenario where you'll need more than one kit for 200(?)/6 though, assuming you're willing to trade/borrow that one extra token in the few instances it's required.

20 hours ago, WWHSD said:

My take away from that is that a quarter liter of blood can cover my initial 2.0 buy in.

Wait... will FFG take blood in exchange for 2.0 stuff?

That changes my opinion quite a bit... in fact, now we're talking! Does it have to be your own blood, or can you use someone else's?

On 5/5/2018 at 2:55 PM, Astech said:

Assuming, of course, that FFG hasn't changed the price of the T-65 from 4-a-list to 3-a-list, making the argument invalid.

Of course, if you bought a Rebel Transport you've pretty clearly got the capital to trade for your fourth X-wing conversion from someone like me, who only owns 1 (classic core set; not much use for it).

There's pretty much no scenario where you'll need more than one kit for 200(?)/6 though, assuming you're willing to trade/borrow that one extra token in the few instances it's required.

Unless they've decided to re-price X-wings to be a three-ship list (unlikely, given they just repriced the things to be a five ship list), you still end up with one more X-wing in your collection than can be flown with a single upgrade pack.
Yes, some people will have never bought another X-wing, and their cardboard will be up for trade.

This is not going to be nearly as common as, say, people having spare Decimator cardboard going spare, even before people who buy two boxes end up with four friggin' Decimators worth...

... and if the new system makes quadruple-Decimator lists viable, while quadruple X-wings are considered excessive, I've got a bridge to sell you.

On 5/2/2018 at 11:41 AM, PanchoX1 said:

I'm more worried about the sales for my local FLGS dropping on the 1e products. It's a new store in a small rural community with healthy inventory. I don't want to see it go under if they have to unload all that at a reduced price. Wonder if FFG will offer some kind of trade in deal for the store with extra inventory that they can't move.

I'm kind of worried about this too. My local store is doing pretty well and already offers a bit of a discount to compete with online stuff. He's built up a huge wall of X-wing, even as the community's dropped a bit. A lot of us are really excited for 2.0 and there's a pretty good chance this will revitalize our community and bring things back, so it might be a boon to the store overall. Still, he's got a LOT of 1.0 product on the shelves right now. To "help out" I guess I'm going to at least have to get that third gunboat and a second ARC

On 5/5/2018 at 4:47 AM, Vontoothskie said:

but you'll have 2 conversions from the conversion pack and 1 from the new core, thus 1 model you cant fly generic.

With all the improvements on the X-Wing, those things are most likely in 2.0 back to a maximum of 4 per 100pt squadron. And you get your 2 conversions in the pack and two 2.0 X-Wings with the core set and Saw's Renegades. Those are already 2.0 Ships, new 2.0 mold as well, flappy wings and all.

On 5/2/2018 at 8:41 PM, PanchoX1 said:

I'm more worried about the sales for my local FLGS dropping on the 1e products. It's a new store in a small rural community with healthy inventory. I don't want to see it go under if they have to unload all that at a reduced price. Wonder if FFG will offer some kind of trade in deal for the store with extra inventory that they can't move.

2.0 Products are 33% more expensive than 1.0 packages. I think there will be a healthy market to buy the remaining stock of 1.0 ships, especially as the conversion kits are so large and offer a lot spare conversions for most people.

I think it had the opposite effect on me. Last night, I bought the C-ROC because it was the last thing I was missing.

12 hours ago, PenguinBonaparte said:

I'm kind of worried about this too. My local store is doing pretty well and already offers a bit of a discount to compete with online stuff. He's built up a huge wall of X-wing, even as the community's dropped a bit. A lot of us are really excited for 2.0 and there's a pretty good chance this will revitalize our community and bring things back, so it might be a boon to the store overall. Still, he's got a LOT of 1.0 product on the shelves right now. To "help out" I guess I'm going to at least have to get that third gunboat and a second ARC

I think this is where the trading thing comes back into play. New players will be able to pick up 1.0 product and take those extra conversion bits off your hands. The store of course could crack their own conversion kit box or take extra conversion bits back in trade from players and sell the 1.0 stuff with the 2.0 bits. It seems to me part of the reason we're not getting all the things is so that retailers have some time to move their 1.0 stuff and get a feel for the 2.0 scene in their shops.

12 hours ago, SEApocalypse said:

2.0 Products are 33% more expensive than 1.0 packages. I think there will be a healthy market to buy the remaining stock of 1.0 ships, especially as the conversion kits are so large and offer a lot spare conversions for most people.

Yes, I don't think there will be much trouble with the expansions in general but he's got a lot of core sets in stock. I just don't see those moving at MSRP. At least not in this rural community.