I like the app ultimately but not 100%. Maintaining physical cards actually neuters the app in advance, the only thing they can adjust is whats not printed. A simple points change won't fix broken things if they are printed broken. They'll still release FAQ's complicating things further.

I'd much prefer if they got rid of the printed cards, ran everything on the app like warmachine does and just sell the tokens, bases, dials, and templates in the conversion kit.

30 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

I am grappling to understand what it will mean to buy a "game" that isn't complete.

I'm not sure, either.

2.0 is here whether I like it or not.

But it's not the same game. I am at Ground Zero about whether to buy a new, very expensive game, or whether my hobby dollars should go elsewhere.

One thing I hated the most about XWM 1.0 is how everything revolved around tournaments and the meta. 2.0 seems a move closer to that point, not away.

And the notion that "we don't even actually know the point cost of anything until it hits play, so we need to be able to change the game on the fly" doesn't sound like an aim at better designing.

My current feeling about everything is that I am going to walk away for a year or two, play 1.0 with my brother, and check back later. What I am trying to do right now is gather the info I need to make a decision.

Right now, if I could program, I would build my own dang app, fill it with 1.0 and homebrew, and add back 2.0 stuff I thought was cool.

Hoping the points costs of cards would be known well ahead of time, and wouldn't change but maybe at the start of a new season. And with the ability to customize pilots and costs, as well being able to make scenarios, etc. that certainly seems like a step away from just the standard 100/6 deathmatches. It looks like September is the big release timeframe, so you certainly should know more info about apps and cards before needing to make a decision. Its been less than a day so far...

48 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

So, I spend a ton of money to buy a physical product that isn't even a complete game. It's the building blocks for a game that requires online support.

Then, I can't use the official supporting material to build squads that aren't of illegal point value?? I'm always stuck playing Official Tournament X-Wing unless I build all of my squads by hand with a print-out?

When they rotate a ship out of tournament legality, I have to build any kitchen table squad I want with that ship by hand?

I can't save squads because they might be illegal this/next season because X-Wings added/dropped torpedoes??

More than ever, thanks to the convenience of the app and inconvenience of not being able to use it, am I subject to the whims of the tournament scene?

'Support' is usually online anyway these days, via FAQ's, forums, etc. People are normally clamoring for online support, not the other way around.

Yeah, the builder as-is only builds for the legal game. but it won't change the entire app every time FFG does an event. If you're not playing in a tournament, or with people that wish to play in tournaments, whats the point of complaining in the first place? It's either that or play the way we've always done, with a broken but legal game, unless you have a casual scene where you basically make up stuff.

I think that if we assume community access to the app (strongly implied by their wording), and the ability to tinker with points using the app in such a way that anyone can do it, you'll have a host of casual formats cropping up. So whatever community you play with can agree on what you want and play that way.

Balance is Giveth, and Taketh by the competitive scene. Most of the combos you see infecting casual environments were created in the competitive scene and therefore the fixes implemented at that level are really heavy-handed in the casual scene, but they do allow a casual player to be more creative with stuff if they don't have the looming threat of 'that guy' who is going to break their scenario.

19 minutes ago, piznit said:

Hoping the points costs of cards would be known well ahead of time, and wouldn't change but maybe at the start of a new season. And with the ability to customize pilots and costs, as well being able to make scenarios, etc. that certainly seems like a step away from just the standard 100/6 deathmatches. It looks like September is the big release timeframe, so you certainly should know more info about apps and cards before needing to make a decision. Its been less than a day so far...

In Team Covenant interview they talked about giving enough time with changes before an event. They laughed how they WOULDN'T do it night before a big event. I tend to see them making all changes on a Monday like they do with FAQs now. It allows time for weekend tournaments. Monday night leagues might suffer, though.

1 hour ago, Darth Meanie said:

Yeah, another peeve if that is the case.

I liked making my squads and printing the roster. I never looked at my cards; they are buried in the wayback of my closet.

There will be a web app as well. You can still print out your lists.

1 hour ago, Darth Meanie said:

So, I spend a ton of money to buy a physical product that isn't even a complete game. It's the building blocks for a game that requires online support.

Then, I can't use the official supporting material to build squads that aren't of illegal point value?? I'm always stuck playing Official Tournament X-Wing unless I build all of my squads by hand with a print-out?

When they rotate a ship out of tournament legality, I have to build any kitchen table squad I want with that ship by hand?

I can't save squads because they might be illegal this/next season because X-Wings added/dropped torpedoes??

More than ever, thanks to the convenience of the app and inconvenience of not being able to use it, am I subject to the whims of the tournament scene

1 hour ago, Darth Meanie said:

Yeah, another peeve if that is the case.

I liked making my squads and printing the roster. I never looked at my cards; they are buried in the wayback of my closet.

So, which is it? Are you mad that you're being forced to use a squad builder, or are you mad that you can't use a squad builder? You can't really have it both ways. Just chill out. I imagine that this app will have more or less the same functionality as the unofficial squad builders - including, as FFG emphasised half a dozen times, options for custom events with their own rules. There is absolutely no reason to think you're going to be forced into playing regular 100/6.

The way I see it, FFG's agenda here is to focus X-Wing more on Organised Play, but at the same time to de-emphasise competitive Organised Play. Each wave will have three supported events, but only of those is aimed at competitive players. The other two will have different rules. They're really going out of their way to try and support a wider variety of play styles, so maybe everyone could stop complaining until we at least know more details?

I also don't understand why so many people seem convinced that point costs are going to be changing on a weekly basis. It seems pretty obvious to me that the app will simply replace the FAQ: every couple months, they'll make a few balance adjustments. The only difference is that now they can meddle with point costs, which they didn't do before. And if you don't like that? If you can't be bothered keeping up with all that? You can just download a hard-copy of the point costs and ignore any changes going forward. You can even write in point costs on your cards, if you want. No one is forcing you to do anything. All FFG is doing is making it much easier and more streamlined for those of us who do like to keep up with the most current state of the game.

1 hour ago, Darth Meanie said:

So, I spend a ton of money to buy a physical product that isn't even a complete game. It's the building blocks for a game that requires online support. - At least once, Yes

Then, I can't use the official supporting material to build squads that aren't of illegal point value?? I'm always stuck playing Official Tournament X-Wing unless I build all of my squads by hand with a print-out? - No

When they rotate a ship out of tournament legality, I have to build any kitchen table squad I want with that ship by hand? - No

I can't save squads because they might be illegal this/next season because X-Wings added/dropped torpedoes?? - No

More than ever, thanks to the convenience of the app and inconvenience of not being able to use it, am I subject to the whims of the tournament scene? - No

If you want, you can print out an initial .pdf of the costs, then do whatever you want to for the rest of your life with the game, if you do not want to deal with the official app.

The official app also allows players to set their own custom rules, costs, ban-lists, and such, so you are able to play your own version of X-Wing with the app if you do not want to be stuck with the official tourney costs and ban lists.

48 minutes ago, Jadotch said:

I agree, the app is going to be an inconvenience for the casual player.

Currently I invite friends over they look at the card and they know what they can upgrade instantly just by referencing the back of the cards. This symbol equates this upgrade.

Trying to explain to new casual people (who really are not that into board gaming besides chutes and ladders) that you will need an app to even get started seems just lame. Then if I don't have an upgrade the app says, it just causes confusion and an inconvenience.

It makes it overall harder for new players to get into. I have got a few hooked on X-Wing by just coming over and giving it a shot. The App will create a barrier to entry.

At this point why not just make it augmented reality game and call it the day. You don't even need models. Just the base for the camera sensors to track. Use the holographic camera phone from the RED Hydrogen, what is the point of the physical models anyways?

So will we not have any upgrade cards at all? I didn't get that from what I've read. I think we'll still have cards they just won't have any cost on them.

If I'm playing with people who only know Chutes and Ladders, I don't think I'm playing X-Wing anyway. If I'm trying to introduce them to X-Wing, I'm probably building their team anyway. I really don't think this will change things all that much.

55 minutes ago, Boba Rick said:

One thing we're going to have to get used to is the "Oh Crap my squad isn't legal anymore!" surprise occasionally.

And what will this mean to me when I don't care?

53 minutes ago, rasmussen81 said:

But we only have to worry about the legal side of things if we play in tournaments...who cares if your home squad isn't legal any more?

Because if the app only lets me create legal lists, what happens to my old list?

47 minutes ago, Jadotch said:

At this point why not just make it augmented reality game and call it the day. You don't even need models. Just the base for the camera sensors to track. Use the holographic camera phone from the RED Hydrogen, what is the point of the physical models anyways?

Right. 2.0 could have just gone Vassal and be done. But then there is nothing to sell. . .

42 minutes ago, piznit said:

Its been less than a day so far...

Agreed. Just gathering info.

6 minutes ago, fhdz said:

So, which is it? Are you mad that you're being forced to use a squad builder, or are you mad that you can't use a squad builder? You can't really have it both ways. Just chill out.

I am just trying to figure out how 2.0 impacts my personal relationship with the game.

And the $500 I will have to spend just to stand still with my collection.

Questioning the implications of all the new materials does not mean that I'm mad, and it doesn't give you the right to jump down my throat.

Lots of people think this is awesome. X-Wing will not die. But I can still have reservations about it. OK?

16 minutes ago, rasmussen81 said:

So will we not have any upgrade cards at all? I didn't get that from what I've read. I think we'll still have cards they just won't have any cost on them.

If I'm playing with people who only know Chutes and Ladders, I don't think I'm playing X-Wing anyway. If I'm trying to introduce them to X-Wing, I'm probably building their team anyway. I really don't think this will change things all that much.

I was being hyperbolic when I referred to shoots and ladders. Usually the most advanced game others have played is Settlers of Catan, maybe Pokemon or Magic.

Having the Icons on the card is just so easy for new players to "get" and understand. I can have an upgrade card that matches this icon. A lot of people, including myself, enjoy the list construction aspect of the game and flying it. (Especially the people from Pokemon and Magic.)

The app is just a hassle for inviting friends over and playing.

1 hour ago, Firespray-32 said:

If I understood the Hyperspace Report you can make your own squad building rules within the app.

I'd also be very surprised if there are no third party squad builders for non-tournament players.

I hope you are right about the ability to tailor squadbuilding rules. I have my doubts though, because building in the ability to adjust the rules will be fairly complicated...

As far as third party squad builders I actually suspect that these will be very limited. Most of the current projects are fan supported volunteer efforts that people have done out of necessity. If the in house app works at all well, then I suspect most of those folks will just pack up.

The app is definitely something I have mixed feelings about. I am really worried that it will not be implemented well and will cause lots of heartburn for just putting things together and playing a game. But it also has a ton of potential. Like some others have posted, I don't necessarily just want to run tournament style games every time I play. If the mission structures that were included with many expansions or different ways to setup and play can be seamlessly incorporated into the app it could be very helpful and very worthwhile. But if the thing crashes, or goes long periods without updates, or locks you out from using it for doing things outside of the current intention of the FFG design team, then all of that is going to evaporate.

From the looks of it, if I’m inviting friends over who aren’t themselves into the game, I’ll just be using the quick build options on cards anyway. 99% of the time, I build all the squads for those people anyway. Assuming FFG makes a printable list with the costs, using the app will be 100% optional. If FFG makes it so the app is required every time you want to make a list, requires internet access to do so, and/or requires a fee to use... OK I’ll happily join the voices unhappy with it.

again, assuming there will be offline resources available, this only seems like a positive move for practically everyone. The only real question for me is whether the card rules are available or printable with the app when you make a squad. I’ve long since given up trying to have every card present even if I do have them somewhere, and just make lists with xwing-builder.co.uk and print them out.

36 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

And the $500 I will have to spend just to stand still with my collection.

You won't have to buy kit for all your ships, especially if you aren't doing FFG events. Surely will be a fan PDF conversion for old dials.

2 hours ago, weisguy119 said:

I got into XWM for the long game. I plan to be playing casual games in 20 years when I retire. Will there still be app/website support then, after everyone has moved on from the game altogether?

There's something to be said for actual, physical product. You can store it in your closet. It's not on a server somewhere that may be shut down some day, leaving you hoping the community continues online support for a dead game.

This guy has a point.

1 hour ago, Darth Meanie said:

I am just trying to figure out how 2.0 impacts my personal relationship with the game.

And the $500 I will have to spend just to stand still with my collection.

Questioning the implications of all the new materials does not mean that I'm mad, and it doesn't give you the right to jump down my throat.

Lots of people think this is awesome. X-Wing will not die. But I can still have reservations about it. OK?

Of course you can have reservations. I just urge you not to worry about things that in all likelihood aren't going to be the case (for example, not being allowed to build squads in the app according to custom rules).

3 hours ago, Boba Rick said:

One thing we're going to have to get used to is the "Oh Crap my squad isn't legal anymore!" surprise occasionally.

There was a Q&A after the Hyperspace announcement that wasn't streamed that addresses (sort of) the question of changes to point values. Simply put, there will be a schedule of updates/changes set in place. They will reveal the schedule in the future.

Here's the video, set to start at the end of the live stream. Audio quality is... good enough.

Enjoy

2 hours ago, Dosiere said:

If FFG makes it so the app is required every time you want to make a list, requires internet access to do so, and/or requires a fee to use...

53 minutes ago, fhdz said:

Of course you can have reservations. I just urge you not to worry about things that in all likelihood aren't going to be the case (for example, not being allowed to build squads in the app according to custom rules).

I just point out that with a fluid, web-based app

FFG owns your cards, all the time.

Yeah, I know I'm sitting here with a tinfoil hat on. But it doesn't mean there aren't UFOs.

4 hours ago, weisguy119 said:

I got into XWM for the long game. I plan to be playing casual games in 20 years when I retire. Will there still be app/website support then, after everyone has moved on from the game altogether?

There's something to be said for actual, physical product. You can store it in your closet. It's not on a server somewhere that may be shut down some day, leaving you hoping the community continues online support for a dead game.

1 hour ago, Arthur Volts said:

This guy has a point.

No, because you can print out a PDF that FFG already said is coming and even if they didn't would be compiled by the community within hours of the apps launch. This PDF you then can use until the end of time, because you printed it. Sure, you may want to refresh it once in a while if you think FFGs changes are reasonable, but you could also make your own changes.

6 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

I just point out that with a fluid, web-based app

FFG owns your cards, all the time.

Yeah, I know I'm sitting here with a tinfoil hat on. But it doesn't mean there aren't UFOs.

oldladywat.jpg

You have physical pilot and upgrade cards. You can print out a .pdf for squadbuilding as your starting point. At that point, you are completely free to do whatever you want with the game and never again look at FFG's horrible, nasty, app.

They even sell little bottles of whiteout and sharpies at the office supply store you can use to adjust point costs and ban cards in Meanie-Wing.

If you do want to use the app, you do not have to use FFG's point costs or ban lists. You can create custom games.

4 hours ago, weisguy119 said:

I got into XWM for the long game. I plan to be playing casual games in 20 years when I retire. Will there still be app/website support then, after everyone has moved on from the game altogether?

There's something to be said for actual, physical product. You can store it in your closet. It's not on a server somewhere that may be shut down some day, leaving you hoping the community continues online support for a dead game.

Take the PDFs. Store them in your google drive, which will either be around in 20 years or you'll have plenty of warning before it goes down. Your future retired self will then have access--searchable--to every iteration of 2.0 balance material ever published.

If you think clouds are for yelling at rather than storage ( ), you could instead print every PDF (or at least every change) FFG ever releases and put them in your long term storage solution. Or you could both save the files and printouts. There is no problem here that is the least bit difficult to solve if you want to solve it.

4 hours ago, Babaganoosh said:

I don't think they have capacity to add content via the app, but it definitely seems like they can take it away. They could definitely do that in some sort of global campaign

They can add slots.

I thought I recall hearing that in one of the interviews - you could have an OP event where the Empire equips all their TIE Fighters with proton torpedoes or something like that, for a single mission.

6 minutes ago, xanderf said:

They can add slots.

I thought I recall hearing that in one of the interviews - you could have an OP event where the Empire equips all their TIE Fighters with proton torpedoes or something like that, for a single mission.

Sure; what I meant was that they can't add new pilots, for example. But they can remove pilots from the available pool. In general what they seem to be able to do is remove cards, change costs, and modulate compatibilities (deciding which ships can take which upgrades).

5 minutes ago, Babaganoosh said:

Sure; what I meant was that they can't add new pilots, for example. But they can remove pilots from the available pool. In general what they seem to be able to do is remove cards, change costs, and modulate compatibilities (deciding which ships can take which upgrades).

Why not?

Make up Red 27 with PS, Upgrade bar and ace's special ability and say you must use the card for Wedge. It's not as if the cards actually mean anything anymore.

2 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

Why not?

Make up Red 27 with PS, Upgrade bar and ace's special ability and say you must use the card for Wedge. It's not as if the cards actually mean anything anymore.

FFG won't do that - they're pretty clear that they want the cards on the table to be directly representative of what you're flying - in official events anyway. At home or with friends, everyone has always been basically free to do whatever they want as long as their opponent is OK with it.

46 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

I just point out that with a fluid, web-based app

FFG owns your cards, all the time.

Yeah, I know I'm sitting here with a tinfoil hat on. But it doesn't mean there aren't UFOs.

1. The app will be free.

2. "We will provide hard-copy PDFs. If civilization collapses you can still play X-Wing in the bunkers." This is verbatim from the FFG livestream, about thirty seconds ago.

And they've also just said that they expect third-party squad builders to still exist, and that using those is perfectly fine even for official events (so long as your list is valid for the event, of course).