5 hours ago, Alpha17 said:

Guess I'll say it again since I didn't get my point across. If you don't play standard, why do you care about the Edition change? If you're just going out to have fun, and not playing by established rules, why do you need to upgrade to 2nd Edition? Even if you wanted to get the new game mechanics, wouldn't a gradual game buy-in make more sense?

Because people don't want to play a dead game, because people don't want to play an inferior version of a game, because people want to be a part of a larger community, and the people still playing 1.0 will know that that larger community has left them behind, that any news about X-Wing will have no relevance to them.

Despite what the average used car salesman might try to tell, you dividing X dollars into smaller payments doesn't reduce the value of X. A gradual buy-in is still going to be a 2nd buy in to a game people already bought into.

I think the biggest slap in the face is that this announcement came on the heels of the news that the T-65 was finally getting a real fix, that we were finally going to be able to fly 5 X-Wings with droids and have boosting and barrel rolling X-Wing aces. Then FFG is like "HAHA JUST KIDDING NONE OF THAT ACTUALLY MATTERS ANYMORE!". Fells like something Rian Johnson would come up with.

7 minutes ago, Tvboy said:

I think the biggest slap in the face is that this announcement came on the heels of the news that the T-65 was finally getting a real fix, that we were finally going to be able to fly 5 X-Wings with droids and have boosting and barrel rolling X-Wing aces. Then FFG is like "HAHA JUST KIDDING NONE OF THAT ACTUALLY MATTERS ANYMORE!". Fells like something Rian Johnson would come up with.

You know, I kind of felt this way a few weeks ago when I was kinda feeling that this might happen, that they would fix the T-65 then launch 2nd edition. After further thought on it, I'm actually ok with it for a few reasons:

First, 1st edition T-65's were not going to be competitive, even with the proposed fix-pack. They were going to be casual night at the FLGS fun as heck to fly again, but you weren't going to see Wedge win anything big.

Secondly, I'm glad they created a fix for them for the 1st edition before putting a lid on it. To explain why, I need to talk about another FFG game, Descent. The last big expansion for the 1st edition was in 2009. They declared the 2nd edition of the game back in 2012, but still put together one big final FAQ/Errata for the game with balance and QoL fixes. I still play 1st edition and use that final FAQ that they put together, and appreciate that they gave the game one last balance pass before walking away from it for the new edition. Since then, I go on to boardgame geek and similar and discuss and use community stuff, but it was good that they at least attempted to give one big fix for those of us that stuck with the old edition. That's kind of how I am seeing Saw's Renegades for 1st edition people. Those that don't transition to 2nd edition, where T-65's will actually be competitive* get some official fixes for the ships before they move on, instead of leaving them in their sad, crippled state.

*we don't really know what will be competitive yet, but its looking good

13 minutes ago, kris40k said:

You know, I kind of felt this way a few weeks ago when I was kinda feeling that this might happen, that they would fix the T-65 then launch 2nd edition. After further thought on it, I'm actually ok with it for a few reasons:

First, 1st edition T-65's were not going to be competitive, even with the proposed fix-pack. They were going to be casual night at the FLGS fun as heck to fly again, but you weren't going to see Wedge win anything big.

Secondly, I'm glad they created a fix for them for the 1st edition before putting a lid on it. To explain why, I need to talk about another FFG game, Descent. The last big expansion for the 1st edition was in 2009. They declared the 2nd edition of the game back in 2012, but still put together one big final FAQ/Errata for the game with balance and QoL fixes. I still play 1st edition and use that final FAQ that they put together, and appreciate that they gave the game one last balance pass before walking away from it for the new edition. Since then, I go on to boardgame geek and similar and discuss and use community stuff, but it was good that they at least attempted to give one big fix for those of us that stuck with the old edition. That's kind of how I am seeing Saw's Renegades for 1st edition people. Those that don't transition to 2nd edition, where T-65's will actually be competitive* get some official fixes for the ships before they move on, instead of leaving them in their sad, crippled state.

*we don't really know what will be competitive yet, but its looking good

But that's pure speculation on your part. How do you know T-65s are going to be competitive in 2.0 if you don't even know what their points cost is, or what the points cost of every other ship in the game is? The 2.0 X-Wing isn't even as good as the 1.0 X-Wing is now! It can't barrel roll like the new X-Wing can. On the flip side we know exactly how good the updated 1.0 T-65 is because we can actually build lists with it and play test it, and from what I've heard from people who've been playtesting the 5 X-Wings, it's actually been doing very well. And if we follow your argument that Saw's pack wasn't going to make X-Wings competitive in 1.0, even after FFG has had 6 years to figure out how to make the T-65 competitive, then how does that inspire confidence that they are going to do any better in 2.0?

Also what good is an official competitive fix for a ship if Organized Play is completely switching over to 2.0 as soon as it comes out? Nobody is going to be playing X-Wing 1.0 competitively if there is no Store Championships or Regionals or Opens.

Ok guys, we fixed that broken window on your house, now we're going to tear your house down and build a new one and charge you a new downpayment if you want to live in the new one.

3 minutes ago, Tvboy said:

But that's pure speculation on your part. How do you know T-65s are going to be competitive in 2.0 if you don't even know what their points cost is, or what the points cost of every other ship in the game is? On the flip side we know exactly how good the updated 1.0 T-65 is because we can actually build lists with it and play test it, and from what I've heard from people who've been playtesting the 5 X-Wings, it's actually been doing very well. And if we follow your argument that Saw's pack wasn't going to make X-Wings competitive in 1.0, even after FFG has had 6 years to figure out how to make the T-65 competitive, then how does that inspire confidence that they are going to do any better in 2.0?

Also what good is an official competitive fix for a ship if Organized Play is completely switching over to 2.0 as soon as it comes out? Nobody is going to be playing X-Wing 1.0 competitively if there is no Store Championships or Regionals or Opens.

Ok guys, we fixed that broken window on your house, now we're going to tear your house down and build a new one and charge you a new downpayment if you want to live in the new one.

Well, yeah, I even said it was speculation based on what we have seen so far.

The reason we know they are going to be better off in 2.0 is the very reason why they were not going to be better off in 1.0, and that is because the game itself was rotten at its core. The way turrets work, the proliferation of passive modifiers, action efficiency, bombs, feature and power creep. All of this created a setting that the only way T-65's were ever going to be competitive again was to rip it out and re-work it, which is exactly what 2.0 is.

And I didn't say that the it was a good fix for official competitive 1.0 players, I said the exact opposite. T-65s were never going to be competitive in 1.0. I said it was good for players who were not wanting to switch over to 2.0 to get one last fix, which is non-competitive players by definition.

18 minutes ago, Tvboy said:

But that's pure speculation on your part. How do you know T-65s are going to be competitive in 2.0 if you don't even know what their points cost is, or what the points cost of every other ship in the game is? The 2.0 X-Wing isn't even as good as the 1.0 X-Wing is now! It can't barrel roll like the new X-Wing can.

Actually, it can! White barrel roll is in T-65's 2.0 action bar.

1 hour ago, Tvboy said:

Despite what the average used car salesman might try to tell, you dividing X dollars into smaller payments doesn't reduce the value of X. A gradual buy-in is still going to be a 2nd buy in to a game people already bought into.

I totally get how your're feeling. but it's not entirely true. We're buying into a totally revamped game, not the same one even though it "looks" the same. you'll get lots of new cards, new characters new game mechanics and a whole new experience. All things that didn't exist for our first buy in. and it comes and a fraction of the price of our v1 investment. yeah, it looks like a bit bite cost wise upfront but you can spread it out as you wish/need to to soften the blow, but total blow will still equal out.

1 hour ago, Tvboy said:

Because people don't want to play a dead game, because people don't want to play an inferior version of a game, because people want to be a part of a larger community, and the people still playing 1.0 will know that that larger community has left them behind, that any news about X-Wing will have no relevance to them.

So, you don't want to play a dead game..... that you're making up rules/conditions for anyway?

You don't want to play an inferior version of a game.... that you're already bending the rules for?

You want to be part of a larger community.... when you're not playing the same game/rules that the larger community is?

I still don't get the anger over the conversion. It's geared towards the game FFG sells, yes, not casual 1.0 200-500pt lists, or even, so far, to Epic (which is also a niche game type).

On ‎5‎/‎2‎/‎2018 at 5:53 AM, thespaceinvader said:

For me, the only one I don't quite get is the choice ot only have two defenders in the imp kit. A LOT of people have 3 of those.

This is what I've been kind of complaining about on my local boards. I understand that a 2nd edition was needed, but what irks me is that for those of us who fly 3 and 4 ship lists (of the same ship) that we already paid for, mind you, that we're going to be forced to buy an additional basically now useless ship just to get the additional card stock.

11 minutes ago, Darth Onyx said:

This is what I've been kind of complaining about on my local boards. I understand that a 2nd edition was needed, but what irks me is that for those of us who fly 3 and 4 ship lists (of the same ship) that we already paid for, mind you, that we're going to be forced to buy an additional basically now useless ship just to get the additional card stock.

No you wont (other than the core set). You don't have to buy any new ship models to get card stcok for rereleases. They've said there will be a way for veterna players to get the new cards, etc without buying new models. Presumably min-conversion kits per ship or per wave for each faction.

On 5/2/2018 at 5:41 AM, mazz0 said:

It's all the new sleeves for the upgrade cards that's gonna cost!

After a couple of days to process, read the articles a few times, and watch a good chunk of that Team Covenant playtest, this right here may be my last remaining gripe. I've gotten used to the idea of the must-use, proprietary app - it allows them to adjust point values and upgrade slots on an Ad hoc basis - a definite improvement over the current FAQ process; I'm okay with the majority of the price point, as my son and I really won't have that many leftovers after the conversion kits (a B-wing, a Khirax, 1 or 2 TIE Fighters and a TIE Defender, but we'd rarely field squads with that many multiples of one ship anyway); the gameplay itself looks close enough to 1st ed. to make it easy to adapt but different enough to feel like a new game.

But those card sizes - I mean, c'mon, couldn't they have made ONE of those cards compatible with the sleeves we've already bought? I fully expect to see new sleeves with faction-specific artwork backing by Christmas...

On 5/2/2018 at 7:08 AM, Captain Lackwit said:

I have a rule with these ships.

Only buy as many as you can field in Standard play. You will genuinely never need more than that, and you definitely won't even need that many.

I wound up having 5x TIE Defenders. Three Blisters, two Imperial Veterans (I got some good deals second hand on the 3rd blister/2nd Vets). Why? Because if you want to fly 2 Deltas, you need to buy 2x Original, and 1x Veterans. If you want to fly three Deltas, you need those five, in order to get the pilot cards and tokens. There's lots of ways in which collections creep up. Or at least ways in which you forget how much you're really spending on this game of plastic space ships.

For the longest time, I only had the two Core Set TIEs. I started in the TFA era, thus had two TFA cores, but one OT. I had 5 or 6 FOs, 2 Imperial, 1 Rebel Tie. Then I broke down and bought Howlrunner. Then I saw a great deal on some TIEs and bought enough for a swarm (because Gozantis were expensive at the time). Then I found a good deal on a Gozanti. Then I swapped my Hordes Trollbloods army for someone else's X-Wing collection. And now I've got 12. I'm certainly not converting them all.

I guess my point is that collections build over time. Conversion Kits I guess can be spread out (getting 1 of each, and holding off on the extras for as long as I can), but they're still an upfront cost. Large one-time costs are harder for most people than smaller, incremental costs. I know I'm not going to get kits for absolutely everything; I'll stop no doubt at 2x kits, but still. It'll stick in my craw some getting one kit, being unable to build lists with three of this or that in it, or six of those, despite having the ships sitting in my box taunting me.

And at the same time, I'm pumped for 2.0 and think the game really needs it.

*edit*

Cripes. This reads like a letter to Dan Savage. I have no idea how it happened, but I suddenly found myself with [redacted] doing [redacted] in my [redacted].

3 hours ago, Alpha17 said:

So, you don't want to play a dead game..... that you're making up rules/conditions for anyway?

You don't want to play an inferior version of a game.... that you're already bending the rules for?

You want to be part of a larger community.... when you're not playing the same game/rules that the larger community is?

I still don't get the anger over the conversion. It's geared towards the game FFG sells, yes, not casual 1.0 200-500pt lists, or even, so far, to Epic (which is also a niche game type).

The anger might have something to do with this arrogant attitude that if your aren't playing competitively your needs aren't worth addressing.

And as a player that "stays behind" we'll never have the new Falcon, a Resistance A-Wing, a Heavy TIE Fighter, or anything new that gets produced from here forward.

Because X-Wing is now 2 games; old and new.

1 hour ago, Batinthebelfry72 said:

After a couple of days to process, read the articles a few times, and watch a good chunk of that Team Covenant playtest, this right here may be my last remaining gripe. I've gotten used to the idea of the must-use, proprietary app - it allows them to adjust point values and upgrade slots on an Ad hoc basis - a definite improvement over the current FAQ process; I'm okay with the majority of the price point, as my son and I really won't have that many leftovers after the conversion kits (a B-wing, a Khirax, 1 or 2 TIE Fighters and a TIE Defender, but we'd rarely field squads with that many multiples of one ship anyway); the gameplay itself looks close enough to 1st ed. to make it easy to adapt but different enough to feel like a new game.

But those card sizes - I mean, c'mon, couldn't they have made ONE of those cards compatible with the sleeves we've already bought? I fully expect to see new sleeves with faction-specific artwork backing by Christmas...

Yeah but if they hadn’t made them grey sleeve size then you wouldn’t be able to tuck half the card under another card for no reason!

5 hours ago, Tvboy said:

I think the biggest slap in the face is that this announcement came on the heels of the news that the T-65 was finally getting a real fix, that we were finally going to be able to fly 5 X-Wings with droids and have boosting and barrel rolling X-Wing aces. Then FFG is like "HAHA JUST KIDDING NONE OF THAT ACTUALLY MATTERS ANYMORE!". Fells like something Rian Johnson would come up with.

So what if the announcement came at Gencon and we got NO NEWS until then? just a surprise release. Would that have changed the levels of despair?

They have announced that there are still tournaments to play between now and 2.0 and the components in those kits will be 2.0 compatible. So have fun with 1.0 as we wind down, lets have a great send off and have fun with it!

meanwhile... lots are going "I'll just play Legion until 2.0 comes around" cool, makes it easier for me to get some awesome swag.