I thought midichlorians are just commensal parasites feeding of a persons force potential while not having a negative effect on them.

Anakin was just ... really really infested.

15 minutes ago, GhostofNobodyInParticular said:

Well, midichlorians were thought up before A New Hope , according to earlier drafts of the scripts. I am not sure why he decided against mentioning them, but he never ditched the idea. He just waited a while before introducing them.

I have plenty of bad story ideas in my early drafts. That's why it's called a draft and not the final product.

My honest belief is that Lucas needed a way to express how good Anakin was at the force, thought he needed a quantifiable way to express his force ability. So he went back to some older ideas and pulled in the meto-calories. This also helped because he had a change in world view and wanted to move away from the religious/mysticism of the force from the OT.

I really like the special edition extra and modified shots added when the OT was rereleased. (Except for that Han shot second nonsense!)

28 minutes ago, ricefrisbeetreats said:

I have plenty of bad story ideas in my early drafts. That's why it's called a draft and not the final product.

My honest belief is that Lucas needed a way to express how good Anakin was at the force, thought he needed a quantifiable way to express his force ability. So he went back to some older ideas and pulled in the meto-calories. This also helped because he had a change in world view and wanted to move away from the religious/mysticism of the force from the OT.

My point is it was not a discarded idea. It tied in with the Wills and all of that stuff. The draft may have been chucked, but the idea remained, awaiting a suitable time for realization.

3 hours ago, Flavorabledeez said:

The novelization of the first film does a better job on Anakin destroying the droid ship. The force gives him a feeling that something dark is in a part of the ship and he instinctively fires in said direction, starting the chain reaction that destroys the droid ship. He still says “oops,” but it’s more out of a child’s misunderstanding of why he just did what he did.

That is a complete other story than the movie! There Ani says oops when starting the fighter. A second oops, when accidently (!) landed in the hangar bay. And oopsing a third time after accidently firing torpedoes at the droids and so causing a chain reaction.

No feeling anything dark. No instinct. Not even being stressed while being a kid in a space battle. Only oops. (Oh, won the battle!)

Maybe they should have read the book at the cinema?

7 hours ago, ricefrisbeetreats said:

My honest belief is that Lucas needed a way to express how good Anakin was at the force, thought he needed a quantifiable way to express his force ability. So he went back to some older ideas and pulled in the meto-calo  ries.

Why not both? It serves that point and illustrates how out of touch the Jedi had become

7 hours ago, ricefrisbeetreats said:

This also helped because he had a change in world view and wanted to move away from the religious/mysticism of the force from the OT.

I don't think that's the case. The PT still had a sense of religion and mysticism, this is the same film that had immaculate conception.

I just think it was exploring another aspect of religion and how it can become so focused on ceremony or tradition that it looses sight of the mystical/faith-based aspects. We see that kind of thing happen in real world religions, and that's the idea he was exploring.

I mean, just listen to the way the Jedi talk in the prequels. They sound more like the politicians than monks. And some of that is George's bad dialogue, but next time you watch compare how the Jedi talk compared to the other characters, there is a distinct difference. It's also why they come off all weird and robotic at times, they are part of an order that has started viewing emotion as a bad thing. Anakin always sound like he is going to cry in episodes 2 and 3 because he has not been controlling his emotions from birth and all the bottled up feelings is getting to him.

I'm not saying that the films were good by any stretch of the imagination. They are riddled with countless problems, but I do think there are a lot of good ideas underneath the surface and a lot of the things we make fun of did have thought behind them.

I just wish someone else had directed because there is a really good story buried under all the mediocrity.

Edit: Again, I really just want to emphasise I'm not one of those weird PT fanboys who hates on everything that is not PT. I love the originals and love the sequels and the prequels are at the bottom of my list. I just think they deserve a little more credit than they get.

8 minutes ago, Cade Bulkin said:

I just wish someone else had directed because there is a really good story buried under all the mediocrity.

I totally agree. I think only George Lucas could have messed up the Prequels like he did. I think everyone can agree that what made the OT special was not a single guy's genius, but a collaboration of a bunch of talented individuals who were able to put together something that's over 40 years old and we're still talking about it.

1 minute ago, ricefrisbeetreats said:

I totally agree. I think only George Lucas could have messed up the Prequels like he did. I think everyone can agree that what made the OT special was not a single guy's genius, but a collaboration of a bunch of talented individuals who were able to put together something that's over 40 years old and we're still talking about it.

Yeah. I totally love George and this universe he created and I'll be forever thankful to him. I'll also say that I think still has amazing ideas, even with the prequels. I don't think any of the stuff was inherently a bad idea, just poorly executed. He needs people to help him refine his ideas and I wish he had gotten more of that with the prequels.

50 minutes ago, cynanbloodbane said:

I really like the special edition extra and modified shots added when the OT was rereleased. (Except for that Han shot second nonsense!)

They were mostly good except for just about everything in mos eisley. That intro they added with the drone droid getting smacked and dewbacks walking in front of the camera was dumb as ****.

47 minutes ago, ricefrisbeetreats said:

I totally agree. I think only George Lucas could have messed up the Prequels like he did. I think everyone can agree that what made the OT special was not a single guy's genius, but a collaboration of a bunch of talented individuals who were able to put together something that's over 40 years old and we're still talking about it.

What if the story in the prequels just isn’t that interesting and by definition could never really be?

Lucas made something timeless using Campbell’s ideas on mythological stories to create something that would appeal to the base consciousness within us all. The prequels can only give us background to that, which is pointless if we’re already naturally familiar with the archetypes being used. We come to know those archetypes through living life, so defining the individual archetype’s stories through the prequels can only lead to disappointment.

There’s just no real point to them other than merchandising.

26 minutes ago, Flavorabledeez said:

What if the story in the prequels just isn’t that interesting and by definition could never really be?

Lucas made something timeless using Campbell’s ideas on mythological stories to create something that would appeal to the base consciousness within us all. The prequels can only give us background to that, which is pointless if we’re already naturally familiar with the archetypes being used. We come to know those archetypes through living life, so defining the individual archetype’s stories through the prequels can only lead to disappointment.

There’s just no real point to them other than merchandising.

If you’re willing to refer to the monomyth , and specifically Campbell interpretation of it then it is odd that you fail to notice this in the prequels. Anakins story couldn’t be described as anything other than the battle with his Shadow (The Jungian archetype). Furthermore, you fail to acknowledge non-psychoanalytic political theorisations, and their criticisms, such as those on the Republic.

To say that the prequels have no other point than marketing, in light of your reference to the classical structure of the OT is pretty poor, to say the least.

1 hour ago, Admiral Litje said:

If you’re willing to refer to the monomyth , and specifically Campbell interpretation of it then it is odd that you fail to notice this in the prequels. Anakins story couldn’t be described as anything other than the battle with his Shadow (The Jungian archetype). Furthermore, you fail to acknowledge non-psychoanalytic political theorisations, and their criticisms, such as those on the Republic. 

To say that the prequels have no other point than marketing, in light of your reference to the classical structure of the OT is pretty poor, to say the least.

I know some of those words.

But yeah. What he said. There is a lot of depth to the prequels if you look into them and the ideas are fantastic and really interesting. It's just not executed well.

23 hours ago, Triangular said:

28. And I was already a father for about a year.

I still think little Anakin is the problem of the film. (Although it could have been cool, if he destroyed the droid ship out of fear and hatred and not randomly pressing buttons while saying oops.)

Oh man, that would have made things so much better. (Along with casting someone besides Jake Lloyd and then Hayden Christiansen).

Sometimes it makes me sad when I realize there was such a great story to tell about Anakin's rise and fall. We just need to genuinely like him and sympathize with him at some point, and then eventually have him turn so far the we genuinely feared him. Too bad they failed on both counts! (Well, until Rogue One when he was scary scary again! I loved it!)

2 hours ago, Admiral Litje said:

If you’re willing to refer to the monomyth , and specifically Campbell interpretation of it then it is odd that you fail to notice this in the prequels. Anakins story couldn’t be described as anything other than the battle with his Shadow (The Jungian archetype). Furthermore, you fail to acknowledge non-psychoanalytic political theorisations, and their criticisms, such as those on the Republic.

To say that the prequels have no other point than marketing, in light of your reference to the classical structure of the OT is pretty poor, to say the least.

I understand that it tells the story of Anakin’s battle with his shadow...

...a battle he clearly loses. A battle we’ve already seen Luke go through. That’s why there’s no point in going back to further it. What matters is Vader’s place in the monomyth in relation to the hero’s (Luke’s) journey. It makes the prequels into a bland rehashing of old ground, albeit with a different outcome that’s poorly shown.

I do like the concept of the prequels following more of the archetypal work of Jung over Campbell though since one inspired the other (if that’s what you’re inferring). It would be really tough to distinguish between the two though since Jung’s work inspired Campbell’s so much.

There’s a possible thesis in this. Shoot, there probably is a thesis of this.

Edit: forgot the bit about politics. To be honest, it’s best to not think too deeply on the prequel’s political theories. How the galactic government works in those movies is super vague and tends to lean heavily on the side of necessity of plot over commentary. Now it’s up for debate if Lucas did this intentionally, as it comes off as a complete “fill in the blank” style of storytelling that can be a metaphor for a lot of things from a ham-fisted commentary on the Bush administration to a poor attempt at a treatise on the fall of Rome on down to notes from a small town’s PTA meeting. It’s whatever anyone wants it to be because it’s all so vague. Feels more like handwaving than anything of value, unless someone wants to arbitrarily ascribe some to it

2 hours ago, Flavorabledeez said:

I understand that it tells the story of Anakin’s battle with his shadow...

...a battle he clearly loses. A battle we’ve already seen Luke go through. That’s why there’s no point in going back to further it. What matters is Vader’s place in the monomyth in relation to the hero’s (Luke’s) journey. It makes the prequels into a bland rehashing of old ground, albeit with a different outcome that’s poorly shown.

I do like the concept of the prequels following more of the archetypal work of Jung over Campbell though since one inspired the other (if that’s what you’re inferring). It would be really tough to distinguish between the two though since Jung’s work inspired Campbell’s so much.

There’s a possible thesis in this. Shoot, there probably is a thesis of this.

Edit: forgot the bit about politics. To be honest, it’s best to not think too deeply on the prequel’s political theories. How the galactic government works in those movies is super vague and tends to lean heavily on the side of necessity of plot over commentary. Now it’s up for debate if Lucas did this intentionally, as it comes off as a complete “fill in the blank” style of storytelling that can be a metaphor for a lot of things from a ham-fisted commentary on the Bush administration to a poor attempt at a treatise on the fall of Rome on down to notes from a small town’s PTA meeting. It’s whatever anyone wants it to be because it’s all so vague. Feels more like handwaving than anything of value, unless someone wants to arbitrarily ascribe some to it

Exactly, Anakin is corrupted by his id, and therefore struggles with reality (I.e death). which he then finally overcomes in RotJ. The Villain is as important as the Hero (which in the sequels is shown to be interchangeable).

We didn’t see Luke go through anything near to this, not even in TLJ where his character shows a very different way in which the self can reunify being.

Arguably, the ambiguity is what makes fiction so good. It’s abilty to be relevant in a variety of often un-related settings via metaphor. This very conversation is a reflection of that. Which is why psychoanalytic/metaphorical conceptions of the subject/hero are also so timeless, they are inferential, and if you infer that the prequels are meaningless in this regard then so be it. We all view these things through different eyes, which is consequently the central issue with the monomyth. It is far too general (to say this least; amongst other things) to be truly meaningful as a universal definition of the self overcoming adversity.

My argument still stands, that saying the prequels/sequels were/are purely for marketing is over-simplification, and of all the ways to criticise the prequels, I really don’t think the monomyth is one of them.

(Bleh, who likes high-brow historical explanations for Star Wars anyway).

On 5/2/2018 at 3:04 AM, Admiral Litje said:

Karen Traviss’ Republic Commando series was   , I think, central to my enjoyment of this era.

So I’m not the only person who’s ever read this... Su cuy’gar, ner vod.

10 hours ago, The Jabbawookie said:

So I’m not the only person who’s ever read this... Su cuy’gar, ner vod.

Kandosii!

Mando’ad draar digu

It is a shame they were never properly finished

15 hours ago, Admiral Litje said:

(Bleh, who likes high-brow historical explanations for Star Wars anyway).

Hold up on this, because this conversation has brought out some outside the box thinking on my part for all the Star Wars movies.

Clearly Lucas based the OT on Campbell’s work, and it makes sense for him to base the prequels on ideas from Jung since it explores early psychological principles of the monomyth. So in turn you’ve almost got a picture of the development of these ideas in the first place by going from prequels to the OT.

Now we’ve got the Last Jedi, which could arguably be a representation of the current postmodern view with regards to both Campbell and Jung’s work, in that none of it really matters and you need to tear down those previous concepts to move forward.

If that’s intentionally what Rian Johnson did then he’s an actual genius.

Oh, and my oversimplification on the prequels just being for the selling of merchandise is a crack on Lucas. I agree with the idea that his slipping is due to him not surrounding himself with the best and brightest, which was a trend that started with RotJ when he became obsessed with merchandising. No one can make anything that we’d still be talking constructively about all these years later on just a marketing ploy (even though it seems like some franchises are trying). There has to be some proverbial “meat” with those potatoes.

Honestly, I love it all. Yes it has flaws but so does everything. Star Wars has been a central part of my life for.......yes. I will not let it's flaws drive me away, I don't see a way that I would abandon it. I hope I never do.