12 minutes ago, Ken-Obi said:

Yep because production costs only include the material cost of physically printing the thing. No costs for hiring people to design the stuff that's being produced... oh wait.

This stupid criticism has been around forever. I'd like to pretend your rational argument will change minds, but I'm not optimistic.

8 minutes ago, Werewolf_nr said:

Maybe, but that's a board game that is custom built and probably doing a single run. Also, that board game will generally contain more than these boxes. Granted, that's a guess because we haven't actually seen it, but I don't think that you will be borne out in the end.

Not at all, I'm sure the boat ride from China costs more than the actual printing. Play testing, as best I can tell, is done largely by select members of the community. Art is being carried over. So yeah, I stand by my point.

Do you understand the difference between what it costs to print something vs producing something? Not having a go, just backing up here a little bit to see if we're talking about the same thing or not.

FFG has lots of people to pay to produce the game before it even gets to printing and distributing products. If FFG sells the product for what it costs to print, they go out of business because they need to pay lots of people to make the products. $50 for a conversion kit to update a TON of content to 2.0 doesn't look anywhere near a cash grab to me.

It's the same concept that people pirate games/movies. "You are only lining the pockets of the producer/star/etc!" Never mind the other people that worked on the film and their lively hoods.

1 hour ago, NeverBetTheFett said:

Replace X-Wing with "Literally every other Star Wars Game".

Just to remind that if you suck at X-wing, it won't be x-wing 2.0 that will make you a great player.

Yeah, at $30 I'd be stoked. At $40 I'd be happy. At $50? Twice. Per faction? That's... that's a lot of money. I'm going to have to think hard about whether I want to keep playing.

Which sucks: 2.0 does look like a major improvement to the 1.0 experience. But I don't know if I'm going to be able to afford to play.

1 minute ago, Ken-Obi said:

Do you understand the difference between what it costs to print something vs producing something? Not having a go, just backing up here a little bit to see if we're talking about the same thing or not.

FFG has lots of people to pay to produce the game before it even gets to printing and distributing products. If FFG sells the product for what it costs to print, they go out of business because they need to pay lots of people to make the products. $50 for a conversion kit to update a TON of content to 2.0 doesn't look anywhere near a cash grab to me.

I generally do have an idea what a production run takes, with a focus on mechanical devices. Since we know (from FFG) that the dial size hasn't changed, and we can guess (because why fix what isn't broke) that they won't change the standard card sizes from their other games (including X-Wing TMG) that they aren't doing anything fundamentally different on the physical side. I will be very surprised if the cardboard sheet isn't a common size.

They need to produce new screens for the printing and dies for cutting. That covers the physical side.

The art seems to be largely reused, so probably not paying much for artists time. Playtesting, as I mentioned earlier, is probably a mixed bag of paid and unpaid time, which I can't really guess at too much. And then it is the layout/design side, which, again, isn't my specialty.

"But wait," you say, "you just admitted that there was at least some R&D to pay back." Why yes, I did. But they will almost certainly be reusing most/all of it in the reprints of the ships, so they will be double dipping. Also note that those ships just went up $5 as well.

Now, even if their actual costs + normal margin do take them to the $50 price point (I personally doubt, but I'll concede for this talking point), they still shouldn't have gone that high. Consider, each wave cost around $60 to purchase, I'm doing a lot of averaging here, but I think you get the gist. That wave was basically optional, you could continue playing the game without it, you could go to a tournament today and play with a TIE swarm made of nothing but Wave 1 purchases and be perfectly legal to do so. Not so here, they are forcing the purchase (unless they announce a legacy league or something). So instead of being able to buy at your own pace, you must buy a minimum of one conversion pack and attend an event to get the damage deck (thereby avoiding buying the new core). We've gone from a $0 minimum to a $50 minimum. Because of the forced nature, they should have been accommodating.

As I said in one of the other threads, I'm a casual player who can now stop spending hundreds of dollars per quarter. Why yes I do have a problem. X-wing 2.0 will allow those of us with an addiction to stop. And we still have an amazing game to play with.

The cost is real even if it isn't a cash grab. They could have been stupid though and allowed both versions to set out there without a conversion kit and have people slowly buy into 2nd.

X-Wing needed this to be sure and buying the new stuff is like puking, you don't want to do it but after you done it, you feel better.

36 minutes ago, Werewolf_nr said:

Not as far as I can tell. The old fatigued players are looking at about $250 to get fully playable and deciding it isn't worth it. It would be throwing dollars after dimes at this point.

I'm an old fatigued player - one who flipped the table over how badly PWT wrecked certain types of flying. Flipped a table again over the "Rock-Paper-Scissors" solution that was autothrusters. Flipped the table again at how badly triple-toilets messed with.... EVERY other list.

And I say....

I guess some people have never played a game with edition changes, in which case this could be a shock, but $150 to not have to rebuy every old ship again for a new faction is a super cheap edition change. I’ll take it, so much better than my fear that they would invalidate their backlog.

When you look at each pack containing something like 90 cards plus all the cardboard and i assume possibly bases its not that bad. Look at some board games these days for what is in 1 pack your probably look at $100.

Also remember you dont need to buy $300 worth of stuff right away. Go in slow and but maybe 1 or 2 then get the rest.

BTW in the Team Convent interview, you can just fly one faction and get all the upgrade cards you need. No more exclusive cards forcing people to buy cross faction. In the long run that may help with the costs.

We're not paying for cardboard. We're paying for probably long months of BASICALLY REDESIGNING THE WHOLE **** GAME. You can stay and play 1.0 if you want. I will gladly pay for this amazing project which probably took a lot of planning. Also you can just get one conversion pack+core set at the start and play with it for a little while.

52 minutes ago, Werewolf_nr said:

Not as far as I can tell. The old fatigued players are looking at about $250 to get fully playable and deciding it isn't worth it. It would be throwing dollars after dimes at this point.

Then people who are in that situation are the same off if they opt out of 2.0. They were done with 1.0, and they aren’t interested in 2.0. I suspect this group is a small minority of X-Wingers

6 minutes ago, BlackFalcon88 said:

When you look at each pack containing something like 90 cards plus all the cardboard and i assume possibly bases its not that bad. Look at some board games these days for what is in 1 pack your probably look at $100.

Also remember you dont need to buy $300 worth of stuff right away. Go in slow and but maybe 1 or 2 then get the rest.

Medium bases confirmed so yeah, there will be new bases at least.

5 minutes ago, Werewolf_nr said:

I generally do have an idea what a production run takes, with a focus on mechanical devices. Since we know (from FFG) that the dial size hasn't changed, and we can guess (because why fix what isn't broke) that they won't change the standard card sizes from their other games (including X-Wing TMG) that they aren't doing anything fundamentally different on the physical side. I will be very surprised if the cardboard sheet isn't a common size.

They need to produce new screens for the printing and dies for cutting. That covers the physical side.

The art seems to be largely reused, so probably not paying much for artists time. Playtesting, as I mentioned earlier, is probably a mixed bag of paid and unpaid time, which I can't really guess at too much. And then it is the layout/design side, which, again, isn't my specialty.

"But wait," you say, "you just admitted that there was at least some R&D to pay back." Why yes, I did. But they will almost certainly be reusing most/all of it in the reprints of the ships, so they will be double dipping. Also note that those ships just went up $5 as well.

Now, even if their actual costs + normal margin do take them to the $50 price point (I personally doubt, but I'll concede for this talking point), they still shouldn't have gone that high. Consider, each wave cost around $60 to purchase, I'm doing a lot of averaging here, but I think you get the gist. That wave was basically optional, you could continue playing the game without it, you could go to a tournament today and play with a TIE swarm made of nothing but Wave 1 purchases and be perfectly legal to do so. Not so here, they are forcing the purchase (unless they announce a legacy league or something). So instead of being able to buy at your own pace, you must buy a minimum of one conversion pack and attend an event to get the damage deck (thereby avoiding buying the new core). We've gone from a $0 minimum to a $50 minimum. Because of the forced nature, they should have been accommodating.

I appreciate the well thought out response, but what do you think would have been a fair price? At MSRP of $50 USD that means FFG is pricing a conversion kit at $25. Say print costs are $10/unit. With that assumption then FFG is taking $15 for their own costs - including all the people that you haven't covered in your analysis above (the game designer, the graphics people, the managers, etc). So out of curiosity, what do you imagine that figure should be that wouldn't make this a "cash grab"?

15 minutes ago, Ken-Obi said:

I appreciate the well thought out response, but what do you think would have been a fair price? At MSRP of $50 USD that means FFG is pricing a conversion kit at $25. Say print costs are $10/unit. With that assumption then FFG is taking $15 for their own costs - including all the people that you haven't covered in your analysis above (the game designer, the graphics people, the managers, etc). So out of curiosity, what do you imagine that figure should be that wouldn't make this a "cash grab"?

In my opinion, 20-30 dollars would have been more appropriate, more because of the forced upgrade than the economics. Admittedly, I'd probably still bite even at 35 or 40.

If my conversation with an old FLGS owner is still true, FFG charges 70% of MSRP to the store. The MAP is currently 15% off (with a change on the horizon), which seems to be consistent with the profit margin for the retailer (sourced from current FLGS owner). Beyond that I can really only guess as their internal profit margins, but another 20-30% seems reasonable. So 50-60% of the sticker is mark-up. Plugging all that in to your $25/unit cost says $50 MSRP; but again, they should be taking a smaller margin on the forced upgrade as a long term buffer against community backlash.

I'm in, Im so efin in!

I'm pumped as can be. I still love the original edition, but this is going to be so much more!!!

I'm only buying the rebel kit because that is what I primarily play. eventually I'll have all 3, and two of each I'm sure, but until then, I'm happy with just the rebel kits.

1 hour ago, kellyj said:

Except 2 of my kids play at the tourny level so thats 3x each kit...450-500 to keep us all legal. And to think i left Games Workshop because of this kind of reboot$$$$

In theory, due to the app, there won't be an need for another reboot after this, i.e. a one off investment to fix the game. Unlike GW games that need reboots constantly.

To listen to some players you would think that it is going to be mandatory to buy 2+ copies of each box all at once to remain competitive. For starters the meta isn't even going to exist for at least a month or two as we test out all the myriad new combos to work out what is good. I imagine to start with it will be entirely possible to build something competitive with the contents of 1 factions box.

44 minutes ago, General Kenobi's Chicken said:

As I said in one of the other threads, I'm a casual player who can now stop spending hundreds of dollars per quarter. Why yes I do have a problem. X-wing 2.0 will allow those of us with an addiction to stop. And we still have an amazing game to play with.

Agreed. As an additional bonus. . .

50 minutes ago, pflrocha said:

Just to remind that if you suck at X-wing, it won't be x-wing 2.0 that will make you a great player.

. . .I can quit reading thru the trashy attitudes on these boards.

17 hours ago, AtomicFryingPan said:

Bye then! Never been this excited for xwing!!

100%.

Our local scene was dying out and suddenly everyone who was big on the game 18 months ago is back in - for like $40 on Amazon. I'm so excited and the game is going to be more fun and more balanced than a long time. Wedge will start second edition as he was always meant to be!

We actually have X wing coming back and I couldn't be happier, out of our current group only 1 guy is moaning and he only turned up once every 6 weeks anyway. Almost overwhelming positive reaction here.

3 minutes ago, Frostweasel said:

To listen to some players you would think that it is going to be mandatory to buy 2+ copies of each box all at once to remain competitive.

I was never competitive.

This screws me and a whole bunch of other beer-and-pretzels players over for your precious Sport-Wing.