39 minutes ago, Kehl_Aecea said:If i were playing against it, I'd say it works. You reveal a red maneuver, R4 decreases the difficulty, you perform a white hard turn. So, the revealed move is still red. But, that's just my interpretation and could very well be wrong.
It is wrong
They have this clarified under “Maneuvers” on the Upcominng Rules reference/FAQ (in effect with the new points on I believe the 10th.)
On 6/28/2019 at 8:11 PM, SpiderMana said:It is wrong
The Rules Reference states this:
Some abilities reference a ship’s Revealed maneuver outside of that ship’s activation. A ship’s revealed maneuver is the maneuver selected on its dial, which remains faceup next to that ship’s ship card until the next Planning Phase.
If a ship’s dial is not revealed, or it was not assigned a dial that round, that ship does not have a revealed maneuver.
That is pretty clear that Cova triggers on a 1 turn with R4. Why do you say Kehl is wrong?
1 hour ago, PsychoCC said:The Rules Reference states this:
Some abilities reference a ship’s Revealed maneuver outside of that ship’s activation. A ship’s revealed maneuver is the maneuver selected on its dial, which remains faceup next to that ship’s ship card until the next Planning Phase.
If a ship’s dial is not revealed, or it was not assigned a dial that round, that ship does not have a revealed maneuver.
That is pretty clear that Cova triggers on a 1 turn with R4. Why do you say Kehl is wrong?
Because Cova with R4 astro has white 1 turns...
14 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:Because Cova with R4 astro has white 1 turns...
Cova procs if the revealed move on the dial is a red maneuver. 1 turn on her dial is a red maneuver. Her ability does not say if she executed a red maneuver. From the Rules Reference, it states in the document that the revealed move is the one on the dial. (" Some abilities reference a ship’s Revealed maneuver outside of that ship’s activation. A ship’s revealed maneuver is the maneuver selected on its dial"). All conditions are met for her to get an extra die.
The fact that R4 makes the turn a white move, you still revealed a red move on your dial. Something like Pattern Analyzer will not kick in if you do a 1 turn with Cova and have R4 onboard, as then you never executed a red maneuver.
Edited by PsychoCCNope. Because when she checks the dial, R4 says 'that 1 turn is white, not red'. R4 can work at any time.
@PsychoCC I actually misread the new RR at first, thinking that it said that the difficulty you performed was the difficulty that you counted as “revealed” for the turn.
I’m still not entirely convinced Leia should work for Cova’s ability, even, but R4 doesn’t seem questionable to me.
@PsychoCC @Maizrim To explain a bit, notice there's a difference in wording between something like Kaydel Connix vs R4 Astromech. Kaydel says "while you execute that maneuver, increase its difficulty". This effect is active only while executing the maneuver. But R4 Astromech says "Decrease the difficulty of your speed 1-2 basic maneuvers". There's no timing window, no trigger. It's a persistent, always-on effect.
So Kaydel adjusts the maneuver you execute, while R4 Astromech adjusts the dial itself. With R4 equipped, any effect that checks difficulty of the speed 1-2 basic maneuvers will be influenced by R4 Astromech, seeing a lower difficulty than what was printed on the dial. This works just as well for Cova's ability text as for the maneuver section's Check Difficulty step.
Keep in mind that specific effects on cards will override or adjust general rules ("If the ability of a card conflicts with the rules in this guide, the card ability takes precedence.", page 2). So the general rule says the "revealed maneuver" is what's selected on the dial: the speed, bearing, and difficulty of the revealed maneuver are determined this way. The specific rule of R4 adjusts the general rule, saying "at all times and for whatever purpose, treat that dialed in maneuver as a lower difficulty". You revealed a speed 1 turn maneuver that's red, but your "revealed maneuver" is adjusted by R4 Astromech to be white. When you execute the maneuver, you perform a 1 white turn. Later, Cova looks at the dial, sees a speed 1 turn maneuver that's white, and doesn't trigger.
To be any different, we'd need a specific ruling from FFG saying it doesn't work that way, making a special exception to all other effects that do work this way.
I hope that helps!
I am just playing the RAW. Cova is not about the difficulty of the maneuver, but a red move (in most circumstances, this is the same thing). It is stated in the RR, revealed maneuver when outside activation, is what is selected on the dial. Nowhere at all is there any indication that R4 changes this (physically now on the dial), the reasoning comes from the effect R4 has, it is implied that he "changes" the colour, which works in the sense of rules for stress or not (and things like Pattern Analyzer, which proc on difficulty of the move, so Red 1 turn with R4 def does not proc PA, as you just executed a white move). The matter of fact is, you still have a red 1 turn dialed in, this means during Check Difficulty step this becomes a white (due to R4), during Engagement, going on what is in the RR, I have a Red dialed in, so Cova procs. Same reasoning why Leia works with Cova's ability.
The rules lawyering of constant effect or only at a certain time, is again, not affecting the revealed dial.
As an example where this works against Cova, if you receive damage engine (so 2 and 3 turns are red now, but not on the dial), your ability will not proc, even if you did a red move. Another example, if you use Seasoned Navigator, your move is a red now, even though you actually change your dial (the card says you must do it), it shows a non red move when you check revealed dial, so your ability cannot proc.
If the argument is becoming RAI, I can understand the other argument, but this is opening a whole can of worms if rules are interpreted and not try to be taken verbatim as written. (A good example of where RAW is clearly not as RAI, is on Struts for Vultures, it flips to open during your maneuver, it flips to close after you executed a maneuver, so due to timing window, if you go with RAW, it means it can never actually stay open)
Edited by PsychoCC9 hours ago, PsychoCC said:I am just playing the RAW. Cova is not about the difficulty of the maneuver, but a red move (in most circumstances, this is the same thing). It is stated in the RR, revealed maneuver when outside activation, is what is selected on the dial. Nowhere at all is there any indication that R4 changes this (physically now on the dial), the reasoning comes from the effect R4 has, it is implied that he "changes" the colour, which works in the sense of rules for stress or not (and things like Pattern Analyzer, which proc on difficulty of the move, so Red 1 turn with R4 def does not proc PA, as you just executed a white move). The matter of fact is, you still have a red 1 turn dialed in, this means during Check Difficulty step this becomes a white (due to R4), during Engagement, going on what is in the RR, I have a Red dialed in, so Cova procs. Same reasoning why Leia works with Cova's ability.
The rules lawyering of constant effect or only at a certain time, is again, not affecting the revealed dial.
As an example where this works against Cova, if you receive damage engine (so 2 and 3 turns are red now, but not on the dial), your ability will not proc, even if you did a red move. Another example, if you use Seasoned Navigator, your move is a red now, even though you actually change your dial (the card says you must do it), it shows a non red move when you check revealed dial, so your ability cannot proc.
If the argument is becoming RAI, I can understand the other argument, but this is opening a whole can of worms if rules are interpreted and not try to be taken verbatim as written. (A good example of where RAW is clearly not as RAI, is on Struts for Vultures, it flips to open during your maneuver, it flips to close after you executed a maneuver, so due to timing window, if you go with RAW, it means it can never actually stay open)
Rules lawyering is perhaps the operative word here. You don't want to change your mind and that's fine, we don't need to discuss further. I'm sorry we could not help you.
11 hours ago, PsychoCC said:A good example of where RAW is clearly not as RAI, is on Struts for Vultures, it flips to open during your maneuver, it flips to close after you executed a maneuver, so due to timing window, if you go with RAW, it means it can never actually stay open
That's incorrect. Read the Open side again: "You ignore obstacles at range 0 and while you move through them. After you reveal your dial, if you reveal a maneuver other than a [2-straight] and are at range 0 of an asteroid or debris cloud, skip your Execute Maneuver step and remove 1 stress token; if you revealed a right or left maneuver, rotate your ship 90º in that direction. After you execute a maneuver, flip this card."
(You never execute a maneuver while the struts are open, except if you reveal a 2-straight, or in weird situations like getting ionized. Since you never execute a non-2-straight maneuver, the struts stay open until you do execute a 2-straight maneuver (or get ionized, or whatever). I know it's a lot of words, but you seem to be conflating "reveal a maneuver" and "execute a maneuver," and they are not the same thing.)
On 7/16/2019 at 9:11 PM, Jeff Wilder said:That's incorrect. Read the Open side again: "You ignore obstacles at range 0 and while you move through them. After you reveal your dial, if you reveal a maneuver other than a [2-straight] and are at range 0 of an asteroid or debris cloud, skip your Execute Maneuver step and remove 1 stress token; if you revealed a right or left maneuver, rotate your ship 90º in that direction. After you execute a maneuver, flip this card."
(You never execute a maneuver while the struts are open, except if you reveal a 2-straight, or in weird situations like getting ionized. Since you never execute a non-2-straight maneuver, the struts stay open until you do execute a 2-straight maneuver (or get ionized, or whatever). I know it's a lot of words, but you seem to be conflating "reveal a maneuver" and "execute a maneuver," and they are not the same thing.)
The first turn you move onto the obstacle. Let use a 3 forward as the example move. You reveal a 3, you move 3 forward, land on a rock. The close side says while you execute a maneuver, you may flip this card. So let us flip it. Then the open side says. After you execute a maneuver, flip this card. All conditions are met. You executed a legit 3 maneuver, the card is on open (as the timing window from close to open is during and open to close is after), so based on that you flip it back.
I know this is not how it is suppose to work, just used it as an example earlier to add context to something else. People do not disagree on this point, but say for interest sake, and I am "that guy", I play it EXACTLY as written, it seems to me then struts do not let you stay on a rock the following turn or even help you shoot in the engagement phase. (I am not arguing the use of struts at all, just was iterating a point of RAW vs RAI)
9 hours ago, PsychoCC said:[Flip card after executing maneuver, then flip card again after executing the same maneuver?]
I don't think so. I think there's only one opportunity for this card after executing a maneuver, and what you do depends on which side of the card is up. (Admittedly, though, I'm not 100% certain, and not willing to deep dive right now to be 100% certain.) There would be much more noise about this, if the wording were the problem, IMO.
40 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:I don't think so. I think there's only one opportunity for this card after executing a maneuver, and what you do depends on which side of the card is up. (Admittedly, though, I'm not 100% certain, and not willing to deep dive right now to be 100% certain.) There would be much more noise about this, if the wording were the problem, IMO.
There was allot of noise over it when it was previewed because the specific timings of opening and closing are such that struts RAW close in the same turn they open. Generally this is ignored on the turn they open though since following the RAW on both types of struts would render a large portion of what is written on the open side as effectively non-existent.
Edited by Hiemfire7 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:There was allot of noise over it when it was previewed because the specific timings of opening and closing are such that struts RAW close in the same turn they open. Generally this is ignored on the turn they open though since following the RAW on both types of struts would render a large portion of what is written on the open side as effectively non-existent.
Are you sure that's what the fuss was over? At least around here, the confusion was because people thought that once you did the text on the Open side, you then flipped the card, because they thought that counted as "executing a maneuver." Once people got that you only "execute a maneuver' if you dialed in a 2-straight, nobody around here had a problem. AFAIK, literally nobody around here thought that RAW caused a never-ending card-flip loop.
1 hour ago, Jeff Wilder said:Are you sure that's what the fuss was over? At least around here, the confusion was because people thought that once you did the text on the Open side, you then flipped the card, because they thought that counted as "executing a maneuver." Once people got that you only "execute a maneuver' if you dialed in a 2-straight, nobody around here had a problem. AFAIK, literally nobody around here thought that RAW caused a never-ending card-flip loop.
Yep I'm sure since it opens while you execute and closes after you do.
The major twtich with it is that the 'after you execute' clause is attached to the 'when you reveal' trigger, so it could be argued that it doesn't trigger qwhen you're executing a manoeuvre that isn't the one that flipped the card from the closed side.
Which prevents the open/close thing, but has a much more complicated relationship with rolling off a rock you're grappled to, so...
In short it's pretty clear in general how it's supposed to work but the specifics are a little wonky.
18 hours ago, Jeff Wilder said:Are you sure that's what the fuss was over? At least around here, the confusion was because people thought that once you did the text on the Open side, you then flipped the card, because they thought that counted as "executing a maneuver." Once people got that you only "execute a maneuver' if you dialed in a 2-straight, nobody around here had a problem. AFAIK, literally nobody around here thought that RAW caused a never-ending card-flip loop.
Yip as @Hiemfire is saying. My example was due to the wording if you go by RAW. It states quite clearly you skip your maneuver. My point was that the loop of flipping them from close to open and then open to close in the same turn as the timing window is different. Clearly a case of it not being defined clearly, otherwise, the card means nothing.
On the topic of Struts. How do you compare your dial with Ric Olie for his pilot ability? It says you skip your execute maneuver, although you still reveal your dial. Do you use what you dialed in or does it not proc for him? It is not a major issue if Ric still gets to proc as you just dial in a 5 forward or 3 turns to equal him, but that opens up Dinee again, so yea, what do you guys think? If you executed no maneuver, do you still have an active reveal dialed?
1 hour ago, PsychoCC said:On the topic of Struts. How do you compare your dial with Ric Olie for his pilot ability? It says you skip your execute maneuver, although you still reveal your dial. Do you use what you dialed in or does it not proc for him? It is not a major issue if Ric still gets to proc as you just dial in a 5 forward or 3 turns to equal him, but that opens up Dinee again, so yea, what do you guys think? If you executed no maneuver, do you still have an active reveal dialed?
Your dial is still revealed, so there's still something to compare to.
17 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:Your dial is still revealed, so there's still something to compare to.
Ok, playing it currently like that as we did argued you do have a dial revealed and you just take it verbatim of what you see on the dial to resolve the ability.
V-19 Torrent Starfighter can it use saturation salvo or not. in the squad builder it does not come up but on the quick build card you can use it i am a little confused here?
Saturation salvo normally requires the reload action. However, quickbuild cards regularly make use of illegal combos in order to up the threat level of a ship.
On 8/17/2019 at 9:00 PM, PAPAD said:V-19 Torrent Starfighter can it use saturation salvo or not. in the squad builder it does not come up but on the quick build card you can use it i am a little confused here?
The rules for equipping a card only apply to point-buy squad-building. Quickbuilds are a separate system, so they're not restricted to those squad-building rules. BTW squad-building rules also go out the window once the game starts, so Cikatro Vizago can do silly things like put a 2nd Deadman's Switch on a Kihraxz Fighter, for a bigger boom.
To answer your question, a torrent can only equip it through a quickbuild. Torrents cannot equip Saturation Salvo by any other means.
On 10/12/2018 at 5:46 PM, Hiemfire said:@FFG Is it allowed to "chain" Swarm Tactics enabling a squadron to engage at the same initiative or is Swarm Tactics locked to the Initiative printed on the pilot card with the upgrade? For example Serissu and 3 Tansarii Point Veterans all have Swarm Tactics equipped and have a Cartel Spacer in the squadron with them. At the player's turn in the beginning of the engagement phase can they use Swarm Tactics to boost a Tanasarii Point Vet to init 5, have that pilot use Swarm Tactics to boost another Tanasarii Point Vet to init 5 as well and so on ending the "chain" with the Cartel Spacer also engaging at init 5?
any word on how this works??
3 minutes ago, cpdilloway said:any word on how this works??
Rules sub-forum is your friend.