11 hours ago, DaverWattra said:

This is definitely the intent, I agree. But I like to leave it open for players to narrate their actions in fun ways that don't match the dev intent.

When the Niman PC in my game uses draw closer on a tough enemy like a Sith, we will often decide it's too silly to imagine him dragging the NPC around like Snoke does to Rey. Instead we'll say that he baited the enemy into his line of attack with a taunt or a false opening.

Well, looking at the full text of the talent in the book, there's zero mention of the Move power being a requirement, which is a requirement for the Force Assault talent on the opposite page, and is spelled out as the character needing to have at least the basic Move power in order to use Force Assault.

So I'd say that you're correct in allowing the PC to bait/taunt a foe as part of using the talent, with zero "using the Force to drag the target," although that is the most popular interpretation of how the talent works given how the spec is the most Force-heavy of the Lightsaber Form specs, and that the talent works out to medium range.

I'd disagree that the "intent" is that the character is solely using the Force to pull/drag the target into smacking range, and if anything the talent is that much cooler if it's instead read as using a combination of baiting/taunting and Force-based manipulation (either through telekinetic or psychic) to draw the target in and leave them open to be attacked, which is fitting given Niman's origins as an amalgamation of the five previous Forms, playing into its ties to Makashi.

3 hours ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

Well, looking at the full text of the talent in the book, there's zero mention of the Move power being a requirement, which is a requirement for the Force Assault talent on the opposite page, and is spelled out as the character needing to have at least the basic Move power in order to use Force Assault.

So I'd say that you're correct in allowing the PC to bait/taunt a foe as part of using the talent, with zero "using the Force to drag the target," although that is the most popular interpretation of how the talent works given how the spec is the most Force-heavy of the Lightsaber Form specs, and that the talent works out to medium range.

I'd disagree that the "intent" is that the character is solely using the Force to pull/drag the target into smacking range, and if anything the talent is that much cooler if it's instead read as using a combination of baiting/taunting and Force-based manipulation (either through telekinetic or psychic) to draw the target in and leave them open to be attacked, which is fitting given Niman's origins as an amalgamation of the five previous Forms, playing into its ties to Makashi.

I believe it’s literaly using move to drag your opponent to you, like Kylo Ren or Darth Vader in the hallway Rogue One. Except the talent let’s you conviently use a force power in conjunction with your attack as it is a lightsaber plus force dice attack.

I would think anytime it’s used it could be described as any effect that’s entertaining.

56 minutes ago, Eoen said:

I believe it’s literaly using move to drag your opponent to you, like Kylo Ren or Darth Vader in the hallway Rogue One. Except the talent let’s you conveniently use a force power in conjunction with your attack as it is a lightsaber plus force dice attack.

Except there's literally nothing in either the short or long description of Draw Closer that says the user is "literally using Move to drag" the target, especially since Move isn't a requirement for the talent. The only reference to "move" is in the game mechanic description of how the target "moves closer to you" using the lower-case move, meaning using that to claim "Oh, they must be referencing the Move power!" is incredibly flimsy at best.

By your logic, that would mean Enhance should be required to use Hawk-Bat Swoop since that talent has an effect similar to a Force leap, or that Strategic Form necessitates having Infuence since the character is affecting the target's mind/perceptions to attack only the user for one or more rounds.

As I said before, it could very well be that Draw Closer involves a mental compulsion (i.e. Influence) to get the target to move closer to you in a way that leaves them open to attack. Or the PC could be using Foresee to anticipate their opponent moving in and thus strikes before the target can fully respond (the equivalent of a D&D "held action" if you will). Or even Misdirect to make the target think the PC is helpless/easy prey and thus primed for a coup de grace.

Is it likely there's some element of the Force involved in Draw Closer's effects? Yes, but then if you go by the general lore of Star Wars, one needs to be using the Force in the first place in order to properly wield a lightsaber without extensive amounts of training or substantial cybernetic enhancement, and yet no Force dice are rolled when making a general Lightsaber combat check.

59 minutes ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

Except there's literally nothing in either the short or long description of Draw Closer that says the user is "literally using Move to drag" the target, especially since Move isn't a requirement for the talent. The only reference to "move" is in the game mechanic description of how the target "moves closer to you" using the lower-case move, meaning using that to claim "Oh, they must be referencing the Move power!" is incredibly flimsy at best.

By your logic, that would mean Enhance should be required to use Hawk-Bat Swoop since that talent has an effect similar to a Force leap, or that Strategic Form necessitates having Infuence since the character is affecting the target's mind/perceptions to attack only the user for one or more rounds.

As I said before, it could very well be that Draw Closer involves a mental compulsion (i.e. Influence) to get the target to move closer to you in a way that leaves them open to attack. Or the PC could be using Foresee to anticipate their opponent moving in and thus strikes before the target can fully respond (the equivalent of a D&D "held action" if you will). Or even Misdirect to make the target think the PC is helpless/easy prey and thus primed for a coup de grace.

Is it likely there's some element of the Force involved in Draw Closer's effects? Yes, but then if you go by the general lore of Star Wars, one needs to be using the Force in the first place in order to properly wield a lightsaber without extensive amounts of training or substantial cybernetic enhancement, and yet no Force dice are rolled when making a general Lightsaber combat check.

The Draw Closer talent does require the rolling of Force Dice along with the attack. Specifically, you spend Force pips to “ move the target one range band closer” to you (much like the Bind movement upgrade) per pip spent. You are using the Force to move the target to you. So, by that wording, the logical conclusion is that you are telekinetically pulling the target to you with the Force.

Though I though I'd never say these words, I agree with Tramp. The power directly moves the target, it does not compel the target to move towards the Force user, and it can be used on droids (or presumably even inanimate objects) too. It uses a manner of telekinesis, though on a primitive specialized level distinct from actually using Move as neither is required to learn the other.

I'm a big proponent of flavor text. As long as the mechanical bits don't change, I generally let the players embellish or tweak as much as they want with the fluff. We did this a lot with D&D 4e, and it might be why I actually enjoyed the system.

8 hours ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

Except there's literally nothing in either the short or long description of Draw Closer that says the user is "literally using Move to drag" the target, especially since Move isn't a requirement for the talent. The only reference to "move" is in the game mechanic description of how the target "moves closer to you" using the lower-case move, meaning using that to claim "Oh, they must be referencing the Move power!" is incredibly flimsy at best.

By your logic, that would mean Enhance should be required to use Hawk-Bat Swoop since that talent has an effect similar to a Force leap, or that Strategic Form necessitates having Infuence since the character is affecting the target's mind/perceptions to attack only the user for one or more rounds.

As I said before, it could very well be that Draw Closer involves a mental compulsion (i.e. Influence) to get the target to move closer to you in a way that leaves them open to attack. Or the PC could be using Foresee to anticipate their opponent moving in and thus strikes before the target can fully respond (the equivalent of a D&D "held action" if you will). Or even Misdirect to make the target think the PC is helpless/easy prey and thus primed for a coup de grace.

Is it likely there's some element of the Force involved in Draw Closer's effects? Yes, but then if you go by the general lore of Star Wars, one needs to be using the Force in the first place in order to properly wield a lightsaber without extensive amounts of training or substantial cybernetic enhancement, and yet no Force dice are rolled when making a general Lightsaber combat check.

Honestly, if your buying 4th and 5th rank lightsaber talents you should have Sense, Move, and Enhance already. Those are the most basic force powers taught to every learner and they often even spontaneously emerge in force sensitive children and adults like Move did for Luke.

Yes by my logic I would question the reason behind having the ability to use hawkbat swoop without enhance.

1 minute ago, Eoen said:

Honestly, if your buying 4th and 5th tank lightsaber talents you should have Sense, Move, and Enhance already. Those are the most basic force power taught to every learner and they often even spontaneously emerge in force sensitive children.

In this system, there is nothing that supports that being true for PCs. Now the NPCs in DoR are another story entirely, and it's part of why I wish PCs were made more like Nemesis NPCs than the talent tree-based crapsack that we have.

So for HappyDaze and Tramp Graphics, since the two of you seem to be together in bed on this...

Can either of you actually point to an element in the rulebook that actually says this talent operates on telekinesis and only telekinesis? For starters, a page reference to bake up this assertion of yours? Or is this just yet another case of the two of you claiming that your assertions are the way things are, and anyone that suggests otherwise is automatically wrong because it runs counter to your unsubstantiated assertions?

As I stated earlier in this thread, there is NOTHING in the descriptions of the talent, both short and long version, that says that Draw Closer must use telekinesis to have it's effect and only telekinesis, in spite of what you and HappyDaze keep screaming. The only thing that comes close is the language "move the target" which is more in line with the description of the Move maneuver (page 208 in F&D core rulebook), unless you're now insisting that simple movement requires telekinesis simply because it uses the word "move."

Give the general open-endedness of how the system was designed, it's much more appropriate that Draw Closer can be flavored to use whatever aspect of the Force the player wishes, be it as gross as telekinesis or as subtle as psychic suggestion (backed or not by verbal baiting/taunting as suits the character) or as nebulous as some manner of precognition, so long as it makes sense. An inanimate object is most likely going to be telekinesis, but how many players are going to use Draw Closer on such a target? More likely, it's going to be used in combat against an animate target, the majority of which are sentient living beings, and thus are susceptible to psychic suggestion.

@Donovan Morningfire , Page 142 of the F&D core book says:

Quote

The character may make a Draw Closer action, making a lightsaber (Willpower) combat check against one silhouette one (or smaller) target within medium range and adding a number of Force Dice no greater than Force rating to the check. The character may spend Force Point before resolving the success or failure of the check to move the target one range band closer to the character (including from Short to Engaged). HE can also spend Force Point to add Success to the combat check. IF the player cannot move his target to engage him, the combat check automatically fails.

I would say that is fairly clear. The Force user uses the Force to move his target to him in order to strike him.

Clearly the developers' intent was to capture the Niman move described in this (granted, now non-canon) Wookieepedia article :

Quote

In keeping with the tactic of incorporating Force powers into combat, two primary Form VI maneuvers, the "draw closer" and the "pushing slash", were conjunctions between lightsaber moves and telekinetic attacks . Effectively polar opposites of one another, the "draw closer" involved telekinetically seizing an opponent and pulling the enemy into the path of his blade, while the "pushing slash" slammed the opponent with a Force push after scoring an attack.

It was no doubt also a follow-up to the Saga Edition lightsaber Force power of the same name, which states (Jedi Academy Training Manual, p. 30):

Quote

You grab an opponent with the Force, drawing him into the path of your weapon

All that said, I agree with Donovan and kaosoe that regardless of the developers' intent, there are many situations in which it's cooler to narrate Draw Closer in a way that doesn't involve grabbing opponents with the Force and drawing them into the path of your weapon.

3 minutes ago, DaverWattra said:

Clearly the developers' intent was to capture the Niman move described in this (granted, now non-canon) Wookieepedia article :

It was no doubt also a follow-up to the Saga Edition lightsaber Force power of the same name, which states (Jedi Academy Training Manual, p. 30):

All that said, I agree with Donovan and kaosoe that regardless of the developers' intent, there are many situations in which it's cooler to narrate Draw Closer in a way that doesn't involve grabbing opponents with the Force and drawing them into the path of your weapon.

To add to @DaverWattra , quoted from that article, is this passage:

Quote

To compensate for the relaxed focus on bladework and lack of significant specialization, Niman training regimens encouraged the inclusion of Force -based attacks in combat, such as telekinetic pulls and shoves used in sync with lightsaber strikes.

3 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

To add to @DaverWattra , quoted from that article, is this passage:

" To compensate for the relaxed focus on bladework and lack of significant specialization, Niman training regimens encouraged the inclusion of Force -based attacks in combat, such as telekinetic pulls and shoves used in sync with lightsaber strikes.  "

Actually, that's what I had in mind - using a combination of...shall we say "nerfed" (? probably the wrong word; I'm going for a somewhat less flashy version of the powers) versions of Bind and Move to pummel one's opponent towards one. Making them stumble and trip and spin and so on, without them even realising it, perhaps.

"You channel the Force, focusing on your velocities, letting yourself slip deep into your training. Your sabre moves almost of its own volition, and your enemy stumbles, trying to steer clear of you. No matter what he does, he cannot seem to move away. A cargo crate here, blocking his path, a tangle of fallen cables there, forcing him back - it's as if the Force itself is conspiring with the universe to shift him into range of your attacks. You strike, and he falls soundlessly. You turn your attention to the escaping ISB agent..."

My objection was over the idea of flying above an opponent and picking them up and slicing and dicing them, then dropping them. Regardless of the RAW for "Draw Closer", there is simply no way I'd allow that in my game unless the player also had the appropriate skill in Bind or Move . Yes, that's absolutely a house rule, and I agree 100% that it's not the way the power is written; I just think being able to add the falling damage to the opponent, as well as the lightsabre attack, makes the talent too over-powered.

5 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

@Donovan Morningfire , Page 142 of the F&D core book says:

I would say that is fairly clear. The Force user uses the Force to move his target to him in order to strike him.

Using the Force also includes using psychic suggestion (Influence) or precognition (Foresee).

And "move the target" is a description of what the talent does in terms of game mechanics, not how it narratively goes about doing it.

Swing and a miss, as per your usual.

5 hours ago, DaverWattra said:

Clearly the developers' intent was to capture the Niman move described in this (granted, now non-canon) Wookieepedia article :

It was no doubt also a follow-up to the Saga Edition lightsaber Force power of the same name, which states (Jedi Academy Training Manual, p. 30):

All that said, I agree with Donovan and kaosoe that regardless of the developers' intent, there are many situations in which it's cooler to narrate Draw Closer in a way that doesn't involve grabbing opponents with the Force and drawing them into the path of your weapon.

In similar vein, you've got Falling Avalanche (from Form V) that's described as being an overhead blow that hammers down on the foe, as well as Hawk Bat Swoop which is implied to be a "leap in, make your attack, and then leap out" move (of which the talent only allows the first two elements).

So I can see where intent and inspiration are from with regards to various talents that drew their names from Form maneuvers, most of which originated with Saga Edition which by its nature had a much more regimented approach Force powers, thus requiring being fairly specific in how the power operates.

Here's a disgusting move.

Enhance leap with the maneuver upgrade.

Draw closer while in leap.

21 hours ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

Using the Force also includes using psychic suggestion (Influence) or precognition (Foresee).

And "move the target" is a description of what the talent does in terms of game mechanics, not how it narratively goes about doing it.

Swing and a miss, as per your usual.

Nope. Because the wording of Draw Closer is not much different than the wording for Bind's movement upgrade, and it is also supported by the Wookieepedia article referenced above. Both Draw Closer and Bond's movment upgrade specifically say that you spend FP to move a target , not trick him into moving to you, not manipulating him, not foresee where he is going to be, you spend FP to move him. That is telekinesis. you are literally pulling him to you in order to skewer him, hence the title of the talent Draw Closer . You draw him closer as if by a rope around his waist .

On 5/7/2018 at 3:20 PM, Tramp Graphics said:

Nope. Because the wording of Draw Closer is not much different than the wording for Bind's movement upgrade, and it is also supported by the Wookieepedia article referenced above. Both Draw Closer and Bond's movment upgrade specifically say that you spend FP to move a target , not trick him into moving to you, not manipulating him, not foresee where he is going to be, you spend FP to move him. That is telekinesis. you are literally pulling him to you in order to skewer him, hence the title of the talent Draw Closer . You draw him closer as if by a rope around his waist .

Notice the lower case m. As in the talent does not define how they are moved. Just that they are. The thing I have noticed about FFG is they are often vague enough to allow many interpretations of what is happening alternatively to be correct. Embrace the flexibility of the system. A character can apply whatever trappings they want to the talent. the only thing defined is that the force in some manner causes the target to move closer. How that happens could be anything from using Move to physically move them to using suggestions to move them to foresee allowing the character to have moved right into the path of the character. Or whatever other clever description the player wants to describe it as. FFG tends to describe what happens not how.

Just now, Daeglan said:

Notice the lower case m. As in the talent does not define how they are moved. Just that they are. The thing I have noticed about FFG is they are often vague enough to allow many interpretations of what is happening alternatively to be correct. Embrace the flexibility of the system. A character can apply whatever trappings they want to the talent. the only thing defined is that the force in some manner causes the target to move closer. How that happens could be anything from using Move to physically move them to using suggestions to move them to foresee allowing the character to have moved right into the path of the character. Or whatever other clever description the player wants to describe it as. FFG tends to describe what happens not how.

Whether it's lower case or upper case doesn't matter. As with the Bind upgrade, it's using the Force to move the target closer to you. That is specifically what the talent does. You spend Force Pips to move the target to you so you can hit him. It's not to make a "suggestion" or trick him. It is to physically move him. And this is backed up by the Wookieepedia article as well where it says:

Quote

" To  compensate for the relaxed focus on bladework and lack of significant specialization, Niman training regimens encouraged the inclusion of Force -based attacks in combat, such as telekinetic pulls and shoves used in sync with lightsaber strikes.  "

That is a direct quote. Niman practitioners used telekinetic pulls in combination with lightsaber strikes. That is what Draw Closer is. It is a telekinetic yank in combination with a lightsaber skewer.

10 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Whether it's lower case or upper case doesn't matter. As with the Bind upgrade, it's using the Force to move the target closer to you. That is specifically what the talent does. You spend Force Pips to move the target to you so you can hit him. It's not to make a "suggestion" or trick him. It is to physically move him. And this is backed up by the Wookieepedia article as well where it says:

That is a direct quote. Niman practitioners used telekinetic pulls in combination with lightsaber strikes. That is what Draw Closer is. It is a telekinetic yank in combination with a lightsaber skewer.

yes it uses the force to move them. It does not define how. Wookieepedia is irrelevant. And much like Sam said with Move and Bind. BOTH can be used for force push. Draw Closer COULD be using Telekinesis. It could alos be using other force effects. Dont be so rigid with rules not meant to be rigid.

6 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

yes it uses the force to move them. It does not define how. Wookieepedia is irrelevant. And much like Sam said with Move and Bind. BOTH can be used for force push. Draw Closer COULD be using Telekinesis. It could alos be using other force effects. Dont be so rigid with rules not meant to be rigid.

No, it couldn't. Draw Closer specifically is a telekinetic talent. And no the article isn't irrelevant. That is because the Draw Closer talent was taken directly from the sources cited in that article . And they all show Niman users using telekinesis in combination with lightsaber strikes. We see this in The Force Unleashed , and in the books The Jedi Path: A Mnual for Students of the Force and Jedi Academy Training Manual.

In particular, page 74 of The Jedi Path says,

Quote

To compensite for the relaxed focus on blade work, Form VI encourages integrating Force powers into combat. Two notable moves include Draw Closer, in which a Jedi telekinetically pulls an enemy within range of a saber sweep, and Pushing Slash, in which a Jedi Force blasts an enemy away after inflicting a cut.

The Draw Closer talent is specifically a telekinetic talent.

Please point to EXACTLY where in the Talent it says it is a telekinetic talent. Because I checked it does not say it is telekinetic. Jedi path is irrelevant. It is not a game book.
All it says is you spend force points to move a target. It does not however say in what manner the force does so.
Please stop relying on non game books to justify your thoughts. The game is not as rigid as you are. And it is not as rigid as you are on purpose. Because it allows one to accomplish much more that way. Just like Bind can be force choke or other force power effects that hold a person in place. Unleash is force lightning or drain life or any other for power that inflicts damage. This game is not meant to be as rigid as you keep trying to make it.

On ‎5‎/‎7‎/‎2018 at 10:18 AM, Tassedar said:

Here's a disgusting move.

Enhance leap with the maneuver upgrade.

Draw closer while in leap.

Doesn't quite work, as given the breakdown between when Maneuvers and Actions take place, you by default can't take an Action while in the midst of a Maneuver, as the system lacks the equivalent of a "Spring Attack" feat (I think that was the D&D name for it), or doesn't have D&D5e's permissiveness to insert an attack/action while you're moving (i.e. move a certain distance less than your max, take an action, then move further distance up to your max movement distance).

But in general concept, not pleasant, and as the GM the sort of thing I'd assign Conflict for if the PC is also trying to inflict falling damage on top of the lightsaber attack, given it's exactly the sort of intimidation tactic that a dark sider would employ to terrorize an opponent.

18 hours ago, Daeglan said:

Please point to EXACTLY where in the Talent it says it is a telekinetic talent. Because I checked it does not say it is telekinetic. Jedi path is irrelevant. It is not a game book.
All it says is you spend force points to move a target. It does not however say in what manner the force does so.
Please stop relying on non game books to justify your thoughts. The game is not as rigid as you are. And it is not as rigid as you are on purpose. Because it allows one to accomplish much more that way. Just like Bind can be force choke or other force power effects that hold a person in place. Unleash is force lightning or drain life or any other for power that inflicts damage. This game is not meant to be as rigid as you keep trying to make it.

So if your player says Draw Closer teleports the target, that's OK? What if it involves hentai genital-tentacles of grasping & groping? The trappings matter and the trappings of Draw Closer have always been described as telekinetic, so why change that?

1 hour ago, HappyDaze said:

So if your player says Draw Closer teleports the target, that's OK? What if it involves hentai genital-tentacles of grasping & groping? The trappings matter and the trappings of Draw Closer have always been described as telekinetic, so why change that?

That is between you and your GM. Why change it? because it allows a character to be a little more unique if they like.