Just toss in a PS counter card that generics can equip to kill high PS ships and the ps war will calm down.

Non-unique pilot only

Side A: "At the beginning of activation phase, you may treat your PS as 12 until the end of the round. If you do, flip this card."

Side B. "At the beginning of planning phase, you may receive a weapons disabled token. If you do, at the end of the end phase, flip this card."

Make it a mod, let generics equip it that cant have guidance chips,etc. Gives generic non-ordnance ships a chance at beating high ps ships.

For a round, they are gods, that can get the jump on PS'ers. Could even make it a discard card instead of dual side.

note, capping at 9 won't "fix" the game, it'll just get you some more variety in EPTs and potentially pilots (might actually see whisper again)

in order to close the ps bridge you'd need to a.) charge more for higher ps, b.) stop giving the highest PS the best goddang abilities

also c.) make more stuff that rewards activating first (like int agent + bump mods, ACTION bombs, snapshot) or even activation neutral stuff (beginning of combat triggers etc.)

and mostly importantly d.), stop making high PS turrets that can trivially avoid all the tech that gives low ps advantage over high ps

So how will this affect the PS 12 abilities?

Making vi scale in cost to 1/3 of printed ps rounded up would be nice. But I don' know what you then do with adaptability.

Just now, Lord Dust said:

So how will this affect the PS 12 abilities?

It won't. They would work as normal.

5 hours ago, ficklegreendice said:

Vi would be nice to have for pilots who can't reach 9 naturally, so let's not ban ot outright yeah?

Cap at 9 is the most reasonable suggestion I've come across

And yet it’s a bad fix because now initiative bid is king.

Nym gets to 9 off Adaptability saving a pt and matching ships that could get to 11 before to try and play around him. So now he has a chance to just outright win initiative against ships he couldn’t before.

Kylo Ren and Whisper are immediately top of the food chain and get to work their magic without any threat of ships at higher PS.

I’m not against the cap, I just think that is can’t be the only thing you do because it shifts the problem.

Rotating Initiative needs to come first. Even if they don’t ban or change the PS Wars I would like to see it. I only fly Empire, mostly high PS Aces, and rotating initiative would be my number one change to the game, even before turrets (especially TLT) and bombs.

I doubt it will happen, but I also doubt VI ever gets touched. I certainly hope it does get banned or limited in a vacuum though because that will hurt more than help IMO.

Sorry I was not clear.

How would capping PS at 9 affect PS 12 abilities like Roark and that First Order pilot. The name escapes me. TIE/FI PS 12 when undamaged.

Will there abilities be an nerfed to 9 as well?

Edit: Need to Nerf.

5 hours ago, Test Pilot said:

I know this topic has been covered over and over here. I think a good point has been made that the bidding war at PS 9 would go bonkers. Maybe that would be ok? At some point you would reach a level of diminishing return, which might balance it out?

I've been wondering what would happen if instead VI and Adaptability only applied to the Combat phase. This still gives all PS 9 ships the opportunity to bid and play around each other. It also makes high PS ships care about their picked maneuvers because they can't "figure it out later" as easily. In that way it rewards good moves with the opportunity to PS kill an enemy. Fenn/Ghost is less broken, VI Poe and Kylo care about what their dial says, and Whisper still gets the benefit of shooting at high PS to cloak (but super cares where she lands to get the shot).

Could also flop these to Activation phase only, but I think that leaves a lot of the existing problems in place.

Totally agree with this. I've been saying this in every monthly iteration of this thread. Whisper isn't hurt that badly, as ACD can still trigger early. The card is still usable in each set it comes in, and still useful for its point cost (especially in alpha-strike lists), but no longer mandatory on certain builds, which eases the pressure on the PS race, allowing Vader and co to take real epts. 

8 minutes ago, Lord Dust said:

Sorry I was not clear.

How would capping PS at 9 affect PS 12 abilities like Roark and that First Order pilot. The name escapes me. TIE/FI PS 12 when undamaged.

Will there abilities be an nerfed to 9 as well?

Edit: Need to Nerf.

It wouldn't. Those abilities would still work as normal.

8 minutes ago, DodgingArcs said:

Kylo Ren and Whisper are immediately top of the food chain and get to work their magic without any threat of ships at higher PS.

That's a very good point. Capping PS at 9 greatly diminishes any chance of counter play against PS 9 arc dodgers that want PTL, and that is a bad thing.

Capping at PS9 has been the answer as long as Vader has been in the game, if you ask me.

Threads like this keep popping up every couple of months or so and every single time they get to one conclusion: capping PS9 would lead to massive bid wars (think double digit numbers) and natural PS9s arc dodging everything. That would not improve the game so it won't happen.

10 minutes ago, player2072913 said:

eases the pressure on the PS race, allowing Vader and co to take real epts. 

Which EPT do you think would be worth more on Vader than leaving the slot empty for a bigger bid?

In a mirror PS9 game I can't really think of any that's better than the ability to move last.

6 minutes ago, LordBlades said:

That's a very good point. Capping PS at 9 greatly diminishes any chance of counter play against PS 9 arc dodgers that want PTL, and that is a bad thing.

I played Kylo at our regional this weekend using the Birmingham SO list. It was great fun and those games where Kylo wasn’t too dog were super interesting. But against some stuff - like qb3d the game is just over the minute you kill their QD.

We can all agree that PS10 Nym and PS11 Fenn are a bit of a scourge but they are scourges because of the lack of counterplay versus Aces like Soontir, Whisper and more importantly Fenn (because bid to the bottom was very real).

We can fix that though by rotating initiative. Then there is a super interesting ace game happening at PS9 as you jockey for position around each other trying to make the most of each instance of having the bid or not that you have.

At least in theory anyway.

2 minutes ago, Lightrock said:

Threads like this keep popping up every couple of months or so and every single time they get to one conclusion: capping PS9 would lead to massive bid wars (think double digit numbers) and natural PS9s arc dodging everything. That would not improve the game so it won't happen.

And many of us keep pointing out that if you want to take a double digit initiative bid, then you're welcome to it. That'll be a double digits worth of upgrades you're not taking whilst I am; and I'll bludgeon you that way instead. What are you going to drop? EU? FCS? Adv. Sensors? PTL?

For instance; take some variance of a traditional Palp Aces list. Remove 10 points worth of upgrades and get back to us if you think winning the imitative bid will be worth it when facing the same list with the upgrades you dropped. Sure, move last. You're still coming at me with ships not equipped to their full potential.

7 minutes ago, LordBlades said:

Which EPT do you think would be worth more on Vader than leaving the slot empty for a bigger bid?

In a mirror PS9 game I can't really think of any that's better than the ability to move last.

Predator on Vader is useful. You don't want to spend the TL to add the crit, and there are situations where having both his actions re-positioning (assuming you're running him with EU) can be handy. So still having some offensive re-rolls with Pred is good.

5 hours ago, pickirk01 said:

I always thought it should have been two cards...

Veteran Instincts 1pt - At the start of the Activation phase, you may increase your Pilot skill by 2 until the end of the phase.

Combat Veteran 1pt - At the start of the Combat phase, you may increase your Pilot skill by 2 until the end of the phase.

Do you know the game TANKS! It has an initiative system akin to X-Wing, and they have exactly what you suggest. Bonuses to initiative in the shooting phase or in the movement phase (in form of crew members), but also commanders that give you flat initiative to both.

In short you have the same problem in that game than in X-Wing (initiative wars). With the difference that types of tanks have a base initiative that does not allow you to make a high initiative tank out of just any tank. For example a Tiger has 5, a Stug III has 3, M36 Jackson has 7, etc. So initiative is rather coupled to a tank type than to a commander, loader, gunner, etc. Only in combination do they reach a certain initiative level in a certain phase...

So you have some tanks where it makes sense to push them further up, and others where you better not spend further points on initiative. Because it makes no sense and you are better off giving them more durability, or keep them cheap.

This is very reminiscent of X-Wing and i have to say that the same problems occur whether you split the skill up in 2 or not.

Just some food for thought...

32 minutes ago, Dr Zoidberg said:

And many of us keep pointing out that if you want to take a double digit initiative bid, then you're welcome to it. That'll be a double digits worth of upgrades you're not taking whilst I am; and I'll bludgeon you that way instead. What are you going to drop? EU? FCS? Adv. Sensors? PTL?

For instance; take some variance of a traditional Palp Aces list. Remove 10 points worth of upgrades and get back to us if you think winning the imitative bid will be worth it when facing the same list with the upgrades you dropped. Sure, move last. You're still coming at me with ships not equipped to their full potential.

It just won't matter. Kylo alone could solo many lists by the sheer ability to kill something and not get killed himself (I believe some guy in Australia won a local tournament doing just that). If Kylo has another PS9 ace next to him and enough bid to go last, he's golden. The only things that stop lists like that right now are nymranda and it's ridiculous bombing shenanigans, ghostfenn (thanks to even more ridiculous firepower and the ability to PS11 boost in the early game) and other PS10+ counters such as Poe, RAC or QD. There's a broad consensus that both GhostFenn and Nymranda need to go. That leaves only the PS10+ potential of some ships to keep in check some potentially OTT aces such as Whisper or Kylo.

45 minutes ago, LordBlades said:

That's a very good point. Capping PS at 9 greatly diminishes any chance of counter play against PS 9 arc dodgers that want PTL, and that is a bad thing.

Except action bombs still exist. And Kylo crew.

Taking VI away from PS8 and 9 pilots in whatever form raises the issue of bidding wars at PS9 - but that bidding war is already happening at PS11 anyway.

It's already not worth filling the last 3+ points of a list with PS11s in it.

45 minutes ago, Dr Zoidberg said:

Predator on Vader is useful. You don't want to spend the TL to add the crit, and there are situations where having both his actions re-positioning (assuming you're running him with EU) can be handy. So still having some offensive re-rolls with Pred is good.

Predator is good, but in a meta with an abundance of PS9, do you think Predator Vader will generally do better than the same Vader, in the same list, except without Predator and with an extra 3 points of bid, greatly increasing your chances to go last?

17 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

It's already not worth filling the last 3+ points of a list with PS11s in it.

Oh? Any examples of popular PS11 lists with large (or any) bids?

7 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Except action bombs still exist. And Kylo crew.

Taking VI away from PS8 and 9 pilots in whatever form raises the issue of bidding wars at PS9 - but that bidding war is already happening at PS11 anyway.

It's already not worth filling the last 3+ points of a list with PS11s in it.

First point: Encouraging more action bombs and Kylo to counter the PS9 aces is not a good thing.

Second point: The PS11 "bidding war" is mild as far as I can see, because PS11 isn't all that common. Stuff a whole wide range of pilots into the PS9 bucket together - and at the same time incentivise PS7 and PS8 to go VI/adapt to get top PS with them - and it'll be ugly in there.

This change seems to me to be the exact same thing the forums always accuse the devs of - doing stuff without thinking through every possible exploit. For instance, Dash. He's already very good, with one of the hardest-hitting turrets and is arguably the single most mobile ship in the game (with his pilot ability + native large-base barrel roll). He's only limited by PS7 because it can be beaten even with VI.

Consider that Dash+Poe is already one of the top lists, and could easily go double PS9 with VI on Dash, and Poe is now free to take Intensity since he doesn't need VI. Now you have a list with a Dash running rampant arc-dodging and throwing buckets of red dice while super-Poe arc-dodges and regens which sounds horrible to play against. This looks to me like it would create a meta where old-school X-Wing gameplay is even more marginalised because you need to either join the PS9+bid meta or build to hard-counter it somehow.

At the start of the activation phase, the player who has the initiative token can give PS12 to one of his ships during this round.
At the end of each round, give the initiative token to your opponent.

12 minutes ago, Lightrock said:

Oh? Any examples of popular PS11 lists with large (or any) bids?

Poe and anything, Vader, QD and whatever, primarily.

9 minutes ago, Dasharr said:

First point: Encouraging more action bombs and Kylo to counter the PS9 aces is not a good thing.

Second point: The PS11 "bidding war" is mild as far as I can see, because PS11 isn't all that common. Stuff a whole wide range of pilots into the PS9 bucket together - and at the same time incentivise PS7 and PS8 to go VI/adapt to get top PS with them - and it'll be ugly in there.

Take VI/Adapt away from named pilots entirely and you cover a lot of that, particularly the concern about WHisper.

ANother option would be to make VI/Adapt take away your pilot ability lol. You can be good OR you can be fast.