2 hours ago, Viktus106 said:

From what I have read on here, Jukey and your Uthuk go at it ALOT and considering that Uthuk are the current forum salt generator, it makes sense that Jukey would be best equipped to handle your Uthuk. I mean, if he can consistently defeat your Uthuk, then he stands a very good chance against most of the Uthuk players in the US.

Your Waiqar however, (2 death knights and Lord V ?) , I don't know a single Waiqar player in London that runs that, if they do, I haven't played against them yet but look forward it.

Reanimates and Archers are still very much a thing here, it's like the majority of Waiqar players are double core players that maybe purchased a box of death knights before Ravos decided to arrive. I mean, someone actually ran two blocks of 4 x 3 Reanimates with Necromancer and Lingering dead at a regional (forget the rest of the list, archers and a Carrion?) and there is even a Maro list knocking about somewhere.

We are in the past here.

My Undead tend to be one of two archetypes:

- Ankaur/Xbows+blockers

- 6 tray of Death Knights, 2 tray of Death Knights, LordV. It leaves about 50-60 points spare for fluff depending on upgrades.

Jukey has a style more more akin to what you describe. Embedded Ankaur and a disturbing number of trays of Reanimates.

Jukey’s success against Uthuk has me feeling like I may have caught lightning in a bottle with my tourney list. Without Viper Legion, the Uthuk bench (while really good), is extremely shallow. I feel like I have no real room for deviation in listbuilding if I want a good army. Basically, I struggle to build armies that don’t violate the Rule of 8. Even my tourney list violates it, but my 2 tray Ripper is more of a technical piece.

That names me curious what lists he’s running that have turned things around so much. And I agree that uthuk lists feel very constrained without ranged. I’ve built a few but almost all of them scream for the viper legion to fill out the list.

I've been stopping the uthuk with my 'Unstable' list variants. It consists of 7-8 units, all no bigger than 2 trays.

The standard core is 2x 2x1 deepwood fire rune archers, 2x 2x1 darnati with corruption rune, and meagan with malcorne. The rest ranges from scions, to alliana, to more deepwoods.

The list throws so much small damage and banes that it wrecks the uthuks low armor, and with so many units on the board, the uthuk cant clear them before getting whittled down.

The trouble I have now, is the best anti waiqar builds latari have focus more on big blocks with added mobility to run circles rather than sit and fortress and wait for uthuk.

Waiqars armor options ruin my unstable builds advantage, as most of the shots only can inflict 1 wound.

I think the last 3 or 4 madlands batreps I've been running an Unstable variant.

In particular, that fortress style hammers home the Rule of 8 rather pointedly. Barring buying even more Berserkers for a second Death Star, I’m not sure how to condense my Uthuk army down to an 8-wide. I’m forced to have a technical unit or a ranged unit (which I don’t have a good one).

So Jukey has been basically reaming all my Uthuk lists that have too much crap trying to close range all at once. I can build my Waiqar according to the rule of 8 and have no real issues. With those lists I get more on target more easily

I would use Bonecaster Kethra, but our experience is that she is just not good. If her surges work on her ranged attacks, I’ll change my tune, but we’ve been playing it where they don’t. She ends up being a really bad 42 point archer unit with the HP and damage output of a 22 point Viper Legion. The fact that I (eventually) can build a 46 point Viper Legion with almost 2X the HP and 2X the average damage output basically destroys any hopes I had for that Unique of hers.

Thanks for sharing. I've got really the same sense in the Latari versus Waiqar match-up versus the Latari versus Uthuk match-up. I've looked at having a 3x2 Archer core with CQT, because it both acts as a good ranged block for as long as you can keep it going, but can secondarily step up into the face of something and do a lot of damage. Unfortunately, since I have both Uthuk and Latari, I have trouble getting in their match-up, which in some ways allows me to meta for the Daqan/Waiqar that I will be facing. I took down a 2x2 and 2x1 of Death Knights and a 2x2 Carrion Lancers on Tuesday, but then I really wonder how well my list would fare against Uthuk, where I've had trouble getting my Latari to win when I solo play Latari/Uthuk at home.

14 hours ago, Church14 said:

Jukey’s success against Uthuk has me feeling like I may have caught lightning in a bottle with my tourney list. Without Viper Legion, the Uthuk bench (while really good), is extremely shallow. I feel like I have no real room for deviation in listbuilding if I want a good army. Basically, I struggle to build armies that don’t violate the Rule of 8. Even my tourney list violates it, but my 2 tray Ripper is more of a technical piece.

I hear ya, it seems that now the dust has settled and people have gotten over the Spined Thresher and Ravos PTSD, the lists are adapting and Uthuk are in dire need of some back line support. Hopefully, Viper, Obscenes and Gorgemaw can provide this somewhat.

Or maybe the release of Lord V and Prince F will stop people from using jank lists and Uthuk can get back to smashmouth Rune Wars.

11 hours ago, Church14 said:

In particular, that fortress style hammers home the Rule of 8 rather pointedly. Barring buying even more Berserkers for a second Death Star, I’m not sure how to condense my Uthuk army down to an 8-wide. I’m forced to have a technical unit or a ranged unit (which I don’t have a good one).

So Jukey has been basically reaming all my Uthuk lists that have too much crap trying to close range all at once. I can build my Waiqar according to the rule of 8 and have no real issues. With those lists I get more on target more easily

I would use Bonecaster Kethra, but our experience is that she is just not good. If her surges work on her ranged attacks, I’ll change my tune, but we’ve been playing it where they don’t. She ends up being a really bad 42 point archer unit with the HP and damage output of a 22 point Viper Legion. The fact that I (eventually) can build a 46 point Viper Legion with almost 2X the HP and 2X the average damage output basically destroys any hopes I had for that Unique of hers.

If someone fortresses, we end up in a stalemate unfortunately. People won't headlong attack someone that refuses to move and we have a number of matches won and lost purely on objective tokens and no shots fired. Whilst INSANELY boring and not fun to watch, just because I can charge 8 across the board, doesn't mean I should.

I agree with you about Bonecaster, since the popular opinion is no surge, she only has one viable build my opinion. With that being said, our "meta" shifted away from heroes a while ago, there was no Ardus, no Hawthorne, no Keth'ra, no Ravos. . it was weird. Aliana was still used though. That is going to change though with the injection of new shiny plastic hitting the UK.

The Uthuk meta I think we change into more of a control style list. We have a ton of options for morale control and bane distribution and I think that may be the future. It's not like we sacrifice damage for it like other factions do!

5 hours ago, Viktus106 said:

If  so  meone fortresses, we end up in a stalemate unfortunately. People won't headlong attack some  one that refuses to move and we have a number of matches won and lost purely on objective tokens and no shots fired. Whilst INSANELY boring and not fun to watch, just because I can charg  e 8 across the board, doesn't mean I should.    

I try to break fortresses as it is just more fun. Also, I’ve seen what happens when Uthuk do break a fortress (tabling my opponent).

From a tourney PoV, it isn’t enough to just win. You need to win decisively. Looking at Gencon, the top 4 cut had scores of 34, 30, 28, 27. Over 4 rounds, those were averaging 8.5, 7.5, 7, 6.75. So a reliable 7 with a few 8s is the minimum necessary. Sure, you can take a single 6 and make it up later, but you have to have a plan in case you face multiple fortress lists.

Also, the objectives have rotated now so that fortressing is viable. Confluence scores no points. Volatile favors defense. Seize doesn’t really push any kind of play. There are no penalties for fortressing. So I need a counter.

With the addition of Viper, Ventala, Obscenes and the new heroes, how do you feel the meta will go?

Waiqar: I can see shifting to a four unit meta. Three high point units (3 x 3 Reanimates, 3 x 2 Archer, 2 x 3 DK and Lord V for example) to accommodate the new Lord. I fully expect to see him in every list for awhile due to new toy syndrome and the fact that Waiqar needed a serious hero injection for a while.

I think Lord V will impact the game more then any other hero. If its not on the table top, it will be in list building. You will need to have an answer for him and hoping that you don't draw against a Waiqar player in an event if not a viable strategy.

Also, if other factions follow suit and three / four unit armies become a thing, I reckon we will see Waiqar win-rates increase. Waiqar can put out an obscene amount of panic tokens and they can work through that deck at a tremendous pace. Our resident player has managed to get through the deck, re-shuffle and be half way through it again by turn 8.

Daqan: Whilst I appreciate Baron Z makes Rune Golems tougher, they still are pretty bad in my opinion. No re-rolls, bad dial and rune dependent out weighs their usefulness so I suspect we will see Baron and his Vitality club helping avoid sniping out Lance Corp or Weapons Masters for the time being. Will Regen Kari be a meta pick? Hard to say. I don't play against them that often so can't really comment what or how they are going to adapt to the new season.

Latari: Best faction in my opinion. They have everything. Easy access to all banes (Vicious Roots, Dreamweaver, Blackthorn, Corruption Rune, etc, etc) and just have answers to every unit. I suspect Prince F will be frequent at first but in much smaller lists and as Jukey has pointed out, these smaller, tighter lists don't far too well against Uthuk. I'm interested to see how they do in the coming season.

Ventala lists will be an archetype as I think you really have to either go big or go home with them.

So i think, again, when preparing for a tournament, you are going to need answers for high bane Latari, Ventala armies or those of Prince Faolan. Difficult to plan for all three.

Uthuk: Personally, I think Uthuk need to go more into the control game and they certainly have the tools to do so. Stuns and Immobilize will be the order of the day to shut down Lord V and let us do what we do best. Viper Legion and Ritual Venom help with this and I believe we are tied with Waiqar when it comes to morale deck dealing. Uthuk have the hardest time when the objectives and the deployments change however. We like playing smashmouth / point and shoot style match ups and I think all armies now have tools to deal with this.

All in all, I'm looking forward to the new season and seeing how the meta develops.

From a tournament point of view, at least in other games, it is hard to get those decisive wins against other good players because their lists are so well designed that they counter almost but not quite everything. So a thankful six is a good result. What you don’t want is a bunch of turtling lists taking over and setting up a bunch of 6-5 results.

Then thrreviften hsng more than one other good player in a tournament unless you’re at a bud event like GenCon it worlds, so you can make up ground by winning your other mAtches decisively. It isn’t just what you’ve done against each other but how both of you fare against the field.

As for the meta, I think what victus describes fits what he might see locally, and what in the broadest strokes might apply elsewhere for an immediate season. I’m not sure our guys will go that route with any faction. We have two new players joining us who will Likely experiment with uthuk and latari. I’m positive we will see both the baron and vorenthull in high frequency. I have pretty set things I like to do with uthuk and latari and I simply cannot play enough games to put them all on the table. I had a 3x2 wind rune spined threshers with a dispatch runner behind them two weeks ago and it was a ton of fun. Tuesday was the first time I could try out a Maegan Reaping Blade, despite it being mentioned on the forums months ago. I’ve had a lot of Leonx experimentation, as well. That makes it hard for anyone to adjust to a local latari meta because I can show up with really different lists every week.

1 hour ago, Viktus106 said:

With the addition of Viper, Ventala, Obscenes and the new heroes, how do you feel the meta will go?

Waiqar: I can see shifting to a four unit meta. Three high point units (3 x 3 Reanimates, 3 x 2 Archer, 2 x 3 DK and Lord V for example) to accommodate the new Lord. I fully expect to see him in every list for awhile due to new toy syndrome and the fact that Waiqar needed a serious hero injection for a while.

I think Lord V will impact the game more then any other hero. If its not on the table top, it will be in list building. You will need to have an answer for him and hoping that you don't draw against a Waiqar player in an event if not a viable strategy.

Also, if other factions follow suit and three / four unit armies become a thing, I reckon we will see Waiqar win-rates increase. Waiqar can put out an obscene amount of panic tokens and they can work through that deck at a tremendous pace. Our resident player has managed to get through the deck, re-shuffle and be half way through it again by turn 8.

Daqan: Whilst I appreciate Baron Z makes Rune Golems tougher, they still are pretty bad in my opinion. No re-rolls, bad dial and rune dependent out weighs their usefulness so I suspect we will see Baron and his Vitality club helping avoid sniping out Lance Corp or Weapons Masters for the time being. Will Regen Kari be a meta pick? Hard to say. I don't play against them that often so can't really comment what or how they are going to adapt to the new season.

So far, our experience with Vorun'thul has been that he is a Big Deal. The transformation is a bit tricky, and it's still quite possible to get him killed to burst damage, but as long as he can engage favourably he can stay very safe while dealing strong damage to vulnerable targets. I expect to see him in Worlds top 4.

I've also been pretty impressed by Wraiths. They're not durable, they don't hit very hard, but they are singularly maneuverable, and being able to float through terrain means it's much harder to control/disrupt Waiqar's deployment with terrain. Board presence and battlefield control were things distinctly lacking in Waiqar lists, and these provide that.

With or without Zachareth, I've had Rune Golems perform well too often to dismiss them. Their dial has a lot of problems, and we've all had rounds with zero unstable runes spoil an otherwise great plan, but the reform modifier, small footprint, and situational durability bring a lot to the table. I'm honestly not sure how much Zachareth cares about them at this point - one vitality token is nice but not crucial, and I haven't yet tried him with Saviour.

Mostly I've been giving his setup tokens to himself, a Spearmen unit with Lance Corporal/Raven Pennon Bearer, and a unit of Golems, and that's working fine. I've gone Betrayer every game so far since the increased damage seems much more useful than a rally, but as a consequence my opponent has focused damage elsewhere so his vitality tokens aren't being put to great use. I must try Saviour.