As far i polish community is pretty small i was wondering if Runewars has a defined Meta like x wing for example. So far we are just testing diffrent lists but in the US i think you guys can have some form of meta, or list archetypes (ive come across the term of KariThorne but didnt come into details about it). What do you think about this topic? Do we as Runewars Community have a defined meta?

In that "meta" means just whatever everybody in your area happens to like playing, each local community develops its own meta. On the other hand, most communities are not big enough to get a strong sense of a meta. For example, some of our local meta is that several of the players like to play very big blocks of units. So that means units that can take out big blocks of unit become more useful in response. A community where several strong players play MSU will swing entirely differently.

Also, in the respect that each faction has only two heroes and a handful of different ways to field strong units, I'm not really sure the game is such that it can have a clear meta. You're generally going to see some variety of units in any list, and pretty much the same unit types, just with different stack sizes and upgrades across the lists.

But that's an interesting question: as far as concerns Runewars, what constitutes a "meta?"

30 minutes ago, Vergilius said:

But that's an interesting question: as far as concerns  Run  ewars, what constitutes a "meta?"   

Please.

People still can’t actually define that term for X Wing with any sort of agreement... Where there would be statustically significant amounts of data points.

Theres no point trying to define for less.

12 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

Theres no point trying to define for less.

Pretty much.

We will generally see some combinations of units that people have more or less success less.

runewars has a special problem in the respect that there’s a limited amount of unit types you can take.

2 hours ago, Vergilius said:

In that "meta" means just whatever everybody in your area happens to like playing, each local community develops its own meta. On the other hand, most communities are not big enough to get a strong sense of a meta. For example, some of our local meta is that several of the players like to play very big blocks of units. So that means units that can take out big blocks of unit become more useful in response. A community where several strong players play MSU will swing entirely differently.

Very true here. It also means that the response players get to certain play styles will vary widely. For instance, there's a number of players on these boards complaining about not having a good response to Uthuk speed armies. When I told my son that, he gave me a strange look and said, "Really?" Both of our army builds tend to respond well to high-speed charges, so our meta is significantly different from other places.

57 minutes ago, Xelto said:

Very true here. It also means that the response players get to certain play styles will vary widely. For instance, there's a number of players on these boards complaining about not having a good response to Uthuk speed armies. When I told my son that, he gave me a strange look and said, "Really?" Both of our army builds tend to respond well to high-speed charges, so our meta is significantly different from other places.

Good points. Skill level and experience matter a lot. For example, I hear a lot of "I didn't realize that unit could do that" at the board a lot. If you've not seen high speed Uthuk charges, then you can deploy incorrectly and mess yourself up, sometimes in powerfully bad ways.

4 hours ago, Xelto said:

Very true here. It also means that the response players get to certain play styles will vary widely. For instance, there's a number of players on these boards complaining about not having a good response to Uthuk speed armies. When I told my son that, he gave me a strange look and said, "Really?" Both of our army builds tend to respond well to high-speed charges, so our meta is significantly different from other places.

As I am one of those complainers, I would appreciate if you could share those army builds and tactics.

Though I don't know if it's just their speed that is the issue, as much as (or in combination with) the massive damage and panic output that leads to pretty consistent knock out elimination wins by turn 6 in our group.

6 hours ago, Maktorius said:

As I am one of those complainers, I would appreciate if you could share those army builds and tactics.

Though I don't know if it's just their speed that is the issue, as much as (or in combination with) the massive damage and panic output that leads to pretty consistent knock out elimination wins by turn 6 in our group.

Last night was a reminder of a few things for me. I ran Waiqar against a newer player who ran Uthuk. Specifically, he ran the build I won our Store Champs and Adepticon with. So a demonstrated reliable build in the right hands. I had a CavStar and a Reanimate blob with embedded Ardus. Two Lancers round out the list. The details that I took from it:

- Dispatch Runner is an excellent counter to the Uthuk ability to win every charge. One turn 1, I rallied and armored up my Reanimates. He launched a charge from extreme range at init6. He killed three Reanimates but could have peaked at... 5. I used Dispatch Runner from my Knights to kill 12 Berserkers back at init7. This let me attack at init4 on turn 2 and clean out the rest of a 6 tray berserkers. I then got the Use triumphant cry. If I had brought File Leader instead of Ardus, that could have been three unanswered attacks.

-Triumphant Cry is surprisingly good on non-square Units. I used it twice to reform and avoid flank charges. Without Insatiable Hunger, it would have allowed to to perform two flank charges off of those “dodges.” I only got the one. This is me nearly getting to flank charges with a 12 tray Reanimate formation.

-Ravos is exactly as bad at attacking infantry as I have said he is. Especially when I forced him to hit my front. His surge and eating ability don’t do very much against Reanimates. If he doesn’t pull Betrayal or Flee in Terror, he will get buried by those infantry.

- Cursed Signets actually does something useful on Reanimates now. Preventing panic tokens from stacking on my 12 tray Reanimates took significant steam out of any panic tests that were triggered. Sure, I lost a few from tokens, but it was a lot less than I would lose from a Betrayal.

-Uthuk suck something awful at fighting high armor targets. Specifically, high armor and Shield of Margath. Uthuk’s low armor and inability to armor up (except Ravos), means that Margath does a lot against them. Ravos (and eventually Kethra) are the only anti-armor they have.

I realize this sounds a bit contradictory, but as one of those players who has been tabling opponents with Uthuk by turn 6 semi-consistently, I need to point out that their damage output isn’t actually very good outside of Ravos and Threshers.

- Berserkers have Red/Blue, which matches Spearmen. They have no access to extra dice like Daqan and Waiqar (do Latari?). They get Brutal for threat 4, but that gets them up to what Reanimates get naturally and is less than what Daqan can get. Yeah, sacrifice for Lethal can be good, but only circumstantially to clear a tray or get that last damage for another wound against armor. Not as a consistent damage increase.

-Flesh Rippers’ Red/Blue/Blue is fairly weak. Their surge doesn’t improve with threat, so they are less damaging in large formations than other cavalry.

-Threshers actually do a ton of damage, but they are only “fast” in a line and can’t perform long charges. So they tend to arrive late.

-Yeah, Ravos is a monster for damage output. No real debate here.

So so why are Uthuk tabling armies? My experience has been the benefits of MSU, damage through the Morale deck, and flank bonus dice. MSU has a swingy, by higher damage output than running DeathStars. The morale deck is doing serious heavy lifting for me as Uthuk. Consistently doing enough morale tests to trigger Loss of Faith and Betrayal most games has been impressive.

1 hour ago, Church14 said:

Last night was a reminder of a few things for me. I ran Waiqar against a newer player who ran Uthuk. Specifically, he ran the build I won our Store Champs and Adepticon with. So a demonstrated reliable build in the right hands. I had a CavStar and a Reanimate blob with embedded Ardus. Two Lancers round out the list. The details that I took from it:

- Dispatch Runner is an excellent counter to the Uthuk ability to win every charge. One turn 1, I rallied and armored up my Reanimates. He launched a charge from extreme range at init6. He killed three Reanimates but could have peaked at... 5. I used Dispatch Runner from my Knights to kill 12 Berserkers back at init7. This let me attack at init4 on turn 2 and clean out the rest of a 6 tray berserkers. I then got the Use triumphant cry. If I had brought File Leader instead of Ardus, that could have been three unanswered attacks.

-Triumphant Cry is surprisingly good on non-square Units. I used it twice to reform and avoid flank charges. Without Insatiable Hunger, it would have allowed to to perform two flank charges off of those “dodges.” I only got the one. This is me nearly getting to flank charges with a 12 tray Reanimate formation.

-Ravos is exactly as bad at attacking infantry as I have said he is. Especially when I forced him to hit my front. His surge and eating ability don’t do very much against Reanimates. If he doesn’t pull Betrayal or Flee in Terror, he will get buried by those infantry.

- Cursed Signets actually does something useful on Reanimates now. Preventing panic tokens from stacking on my 12 tray Reanimates took significant steam out of any panic tests that were triggered. Sure, I lost a few from tokens, but it was a lot less than I would lose from a Betrayal.

-Uthuk suck something awful at fighting high armor targets. Specifically, high armor and Shield of Margath. Uthuk’s low armor and inability to armor up (except Ravos), means that Margath does a lot against them. Ravos (and eventually Kethra) are the only anti-armor they have.

I realize this sounds a bit contradictory, but as one of those players who has been tabling opponents with Uthuk by turn 6 semi-consistently, I need to point out that their damage output isn’t actually very good outside of Ravos and Threshers.

- Berserkers have Red/Blue, which matches Spearmen. They have no access to extra dice like Daqan and Waiqar (do Latari?). They get Brutal for threat 4, but that gets them up to what Reanimates get naturally and is less than what Daqan can get. Yeah, sacrifice for Lethal can be good, but only circumstantially to clear a tray or get that last damage for another wound against armor. Not as a consistent damage increase.

-Flesh Rippers’ Red/Blue/Blue is fairly weak. Their surge doesn’t improve with threat, so they are less damaging in large formations than other cavalry.

-Threshers actually do a ton of damage, but they are only “fast” in a line and can’t perform long charges. So they tend to arrive late.

-Yeah, Ravos is a monster for damage output. No real debate here.

So so why are Uthuk tabling armies? My experience has been the benefits of MSU, damage through the Morale deck, and flank bonus dice. MSU has a swingy, by higher damage output than running DeathStars. The morale deck is doing serious heavy lifting for me as Uthuk. Consistently doing enough morale tests to trigger Loss of Faith and Betrayal most games has been impressive.

This is interesting to read, and ponder. I've just started dragging out the massive block of reanimates. They are not good for every scenario, but this certainly seems to be an excellent use of them.

It’s also possible that I’m just wrong.

3 hours ago, Church14 said:

Last night was a reminder of a few things for me. I ran Waiqar against a newer player who ran Uthuk. Specifically, he ran the build I won our Store Champs and Adepticon with. So a demonstrated reliable build in the right hands. I had a CavStar and a Reanimate blob with embedded Ardus. Two Lancers round out the list. The details that I took from it:

- Dispatch Runner is an excellent counter to the Uthuk ability to win every charge. One turn 1, I rallied and armored up my Reanimates. He launched a charge from extreme range at init6. He killed three Reanimates but could have peaked at... 5. I used Dispatch Runner from my Knights to kill 12 Berserkers back at init7. This let me attack at init4 on turn 2 and clean out the rest of a 6 tray berserkers. I then got the Use triumphant cry. If I had brought File Leader instead of Ardus, that could have been three unanswered attacks.

-Triumphant Cry is surprisingly good on non-square Units. I used it twice to reform and avoid flank charges. Without Insatiable Hunger, it would have allowed to to perform two flank charges off of those “dodges.” I only got the one. This is me nearly getting to flank charges with a 12 tray Reanimate formation.

-Ravos is exactly as bad at attacking infantry as I have said he is. Especially when I forced him to hit my front. His surge and eating ability don’t do very much against Reanimates. If he doesn’t pull Betrayal or Flee in Terror, he will get buried by those infantry.

- Cursed Signets actually does something useful on Reanimates now. Preventing panic tokens from stacking on my 12 tray Reanimates took significant steam out of any panic tests that were triggered. Sure, I lost a few from tokens, but it was a lot less than I would lose from a Betrayal.

-Uthuk suck something awful at fighting high armor targets. Specifically, high armor and Shield of Margath. Uthuk’s low armor and inability to armor up (except Ravos), means that Margath does a lot against them. Ravos (and eventually Kethra) are the only anti-armor they have.

I realize this sounds a bit contradictory, but as one of those players who has been tabling opponents with Uthuk by turn 6 semi-consistently, I need to point out that their damage output isn’t actually very good outside of Ravos and Threshers.

- Berserkers have Red/Blue, which matches Spearmen. They have no access to extra dice like Daqan and Waiqar (do Latari?). They get Brutal for threat 4, but that gets them up to what Reanimates get naturally and is less than what Daqan can get. Yeah, sacrifice for Lethal can be good, but only circumstantially to clear a tray or get that last damage for another wound against armor. Not as a consistent damage increase.

-Flesh Rippers’ Red/Blue/Blue is fairly weak. Their surge doesn’t improve with threat, so they are less damaging in large formations than other cavalry.

-Threshers actually do a ton of damage, but they are only “fast” in a line and can’t perform long charges. So they tend to arrive late.

-Yeah, Ravos is a monster for damage output. No real debate here.

So so why are Uthuk tabling armies? My experience has been the benefits of MSU, damage through the Morale deck, and flank bonus dice. MSU has a swingy, by higher damage output than running DeathStars. The morale deck is doing serious heavy lifting for me as Uthuk. Consistently doing enough morale tests to trigger Loss of Faith and Betrayal most games has been impressive.

Firstly: How did the game end?

Secondly: I would add the following to you analysis (as always I'm not really disagreeing, just adding my perspective):

a) A competent player would have put Ravos against your Death Knights instead of you reanimates since those matchups are night and day.

b) Compared to reanimates, berserkers can dial in a hit, and compared to spearmen they hit first (when both go for the dialed in hit)

c) I wonder if Flesh rippers really does less damage than other cavalry. Oathsworn and Deathknights don't het anything damage wise (or at all in DK:s case) from surges while the Rippers do. In the largest formations you might be right, but at 2x1 or 2x2 I would be surprised if they noticable lag behind.

d) Regarding the slowness of the Spined threshers, do note that they are the fastest attacking siege unit. My lancers have been beaten several times in that matchup just because ST hits first (high probablility for 9 damage at more than 1 tray) and killing worms and/or triggering moral tests that gives stuns, unwanted reforms or just tray elimination.

15 minutes ago, Maktorius said:

Firstly: How did the game end?

Secondly: I would add the following to you analysis (as always I'm not really disagreeing, just adding my perspective):

a) A competent player would have put Ravos against your Death Knights instead of you reanimates since those matchups are night and day.

b) Compared to reanimates, berserkers can dial in a hit, and compared to spearmen they hit first (when both go for the dialed in hit)

c) I wonder if Flesh rippers really does less damage than other cavalry. Oathsworn and Deathknights don't het anything damage wise (or at all in DK:s case) from surges while the Rippers do. In the largest formations you might be right, but at 2x1 or 2x2 I would be surprised if they noticable lag behind.

d) Regarding the slowness of the Spined threshers, do note that they are the fastest attacking siege unit. My lancers have been beaten several times in that matchup just because ST hits first (high probablility for 9 damage at more than 1 tray) and killing worms and/or triggering moral tests that gives stuns, unwanted reforms or just tray elimination.

My list (either I’m remember it wrong or I miscounted and it wasn’t legal, I think it wasn’t legal):

His List:

Final survivors:

He had one thresher survive. I had 2 trays Reanimates (Ardus died), 5 trays Death Knights, and a Lancer survive. So... 101-18? played Confouence of Magic with 2 blue, 4 red, and no greens.

He was hedging his bets on making certain Firs Rune wasn’t a bust, so one Ripper and one Thresher were delayed on getting into the fight. Basically, the big infantry were across from each other, Ravos and a Ripper on my left facing a Lancer, and My Knights and second Lancer faced the Fire Rune and a Thresher.

10 minutes ago, Church14 said:

My list (either I’m remember it wrong or I miscounted and it wasn’t legal, I think it wasn’t legal):

201/200

Carrion Lancers [15] 1x1
Total Unit Cost: 15

Carrion Lancers [15] 1x1
Total Unit Cost: 15

Death Knights [55] 2x3
Shield of Margath [6]
Dispatch Runner [7]
Deathmist Banners [4]
Column Tactics [4]
Total Unit Cost: 76

Reanimates [64] 4x3
Ardus IxErebus [23]
Cursed Signets [2]
Triumphant Cry [3]
Lingering Dead [3]
Total Unit Cost: 95

His List:

200/200

Berserkers [37] 3x2
Bloodfire Witch [5]
Warsprinter [3]
Aggressive Shrieker [5]
Total Unit Cost: 50

Berserkers [16] 2x1
Fire Rune [7]
Total Unit Cost: 23

Ravos the Everhungry [40] 1x1
Reaping Blade [4]
Insatiable Hunger [3]
Total Unit Cost: 47

Spined Threshers [18] 1x1
Total Unit Cost: 18

Spined Threshers [18] 1x1
Total Unit Cost: 18

Flesh Rippers [22] 2x1
Total Unit Cost: 22

Flesh Rippers [22] 2x1
Total Unit Cost: 22

Final survivors:

He had one thresher survive. I had 2 trays Reanimates (Ardus died), 5 trays Death Knights, and a Lancer survive. So... 101-18? played Confouence of Magic with 2 blue, 4 red, and no greens.

He was hedging his bets on making certain Firs Rune wasn’t a bust, so one Ripper and one Thresher were delayed on getting into the fight. Basically, the big infantry were across from each other, Ravos and a Ripper on my left facing a Lancer, and My Knights and second Lancer faced the Fire Rune and a Thresher.

Thank you for sharing!

Intuitively I have a hard time seeing how your Waiqar list isn't prone to get massively outflanked (and thus getting a big dice disadvantage) by your Uthuk list. It should even be possible for Uthuk to outright avoid the reanimate blob and pick of the other parts and objectives.

If you have the possibility, it would be very interesting if you could run the same lists again, just changing who plays which. If the game goes somewhat even or if the Waiqar win, I will happily confess that I am a tactical ignoramus and you are my new (Runewars) hero

Either way I have to try your list.

@Church14 , what I hear you telling me is to buy 2 more boxes of Reanimates so I can have 6 tray Maro bringing back the 12 tray that has Ardus, Lingering Dead, and Cursed Signets. Can't fit much else besides Combat Ingenuity Reanimate Archers, so probably not versatile enough.

On 5/1/2018 at 11:48 AM, Maktorius said:

Thank you for sharing!

Intuitively I have a hard time seeing how your Waiqar list isn't prone to get massively outflanked (and thus getting a big dice disadvantage) by your Uthuk list. It should even be possible for Uthuk to outright avoid the reanimate blob and pick of the other parts and objectives.

If you have the possibility, it would be very interesting if you could run the same lists again, just changing who plays which. If the game goes somewhat even or if the Waiqar win, I will happily confess that I am a tactical ignoramus and you are my new (Runewars) hero

Either way I have to try your list.

I needed to get off my butt and respond.

I wouldn’t wager that this match would pan out evenly if he and I swapped places. That Uthuk is my standard tourney list that I have played 20+ times. So giving me that and giving a guy who’s never played Waiqar a suboptimal list is asking for a stomping. So this match was a really a newbie playing a(n almost) meta-defining list versus a very experienced player running.... something atypical and certainly not optimized.

Wierdly, the critical part to this win was Triumphant Cry. I think I said it before, but reforming a non-square unit (potentially) multiple times a turn has a way of messing with your opponents. I can’t guarantee that I’d manage all the crap I pulled two games in a row. Dispatch runner also seemed critical for getting damage output up.

On 5/1/2018 at 9:14 AM, Maktorius said:

Firstly: How did the game end?

Secondly: I would add the following to you analysis (as always I'm not really disagreeing, just adding my perspective):

a) A competent player would have put Ravos against your Death Knights instead of you reanimates since those matchups are night and day.

b) Compared to reanimates, berserkers can dial in a hit, and compared to spearmen they hit first (when both go for the dialed in hit)

c) I wonder if Flesh rippers really does less damage than other cavalry. Oathsworn and Deathknights don't het anything damage wise (or at all in DK:s case) from surges while the Rippers do. In the largest formations you might be right, but at 2x1 or 2x2 I would be surprised if they noticable lag behind.

d) Regarding the slowness of the Spined threshers, do note that they are the fastest attacking siege unit. My lancers have been beaten several times in that matchup just because ST hits first (high probablility for 9 damage at more than 1 tray) and killing worms and/or triggering moral tests that gives stuns, unwanted reforms or just tray elimination.

I gotta say this is my analysis too... People very often seem to overlook hits on the dial. It's often better than getting another die (which may fail you even with rerolls). Add to that the ability to out charge reanimates, even without initiative, and the ability to take some wounds to finish off a tray and lower combat effeciency of the target and you have a unit that heavily out performs them for only a slightly higher cost.

As for the fleshrippers, they are more effective damage dealers than oathsworn in smaller units, especially when facing low armor. The surge in the dial is not much but a better bet than dialing in a hit with cav... They are usually gonna want to strike first and armor up. Deathknights are awesome but the mortal strike is underwhelming against low armor units and they are significantly more expensive. As far as damage per cost, I think fleshrippers actually come out on top here...

File Leader is the linchpin to defeating Uthuk. Start there every build except Latari.

On ‎5‎/‎1‎/‎2018 at 8:36 AM, Church14 said:

It’s also possible that I’m just wrong.

I think you are under-valuing the lethal.

A unit champ that gives you 1 to 3 lethal, and a unit that can spit out 1-2 more (at a cost of models) is actually really good. Dialing up damage to be 100% effective is a better advantage than a speed 1 shift (2 surges) or a inspiration token (2 surges) or recover 0-3 models.

The other thing is the durability of Ulthuk. It takes 10 damage per tray to kill a spined thresher (most in the game) or 5 mortal wounds (also most in the game). It takes 6 damage to kill a tray of Flesh Rippers (tied with deathknights, only rippers are cheaper) and 6 mortal wounds to kill a tray (most in the game). You just don't have an effective way to take these guys out.

It's the extra durability that makes the difference. You don't have to be dealing above average damage when you are well above average staying power.

The difficulty in recovering spent cards is about to go away. Viper Legion archers with a rallying musician is going to be 22 points.

14 hours ago, Darth Matthew said:

I think you are under-valuing the lethal.

A unit champ that gives you 1 to 3 lethal, and a unit that can spit out 1-2 more (at a cost of models) is actually really good. Dialing up damage to be 100% effective is a better advantage than a speed 1 shift (2 surges) or a inspiration token (2 surges) or recover 0-3 models.

The other thing is the durability of Ulthuk. It takes 10 damage per tray to kill a spined thresher (most in the game) or 5 mortal wounds (also most in the game). It takes 6 damage to kill a tray of Flesh Rippers (tied with deathknights, only rippers are cheaper) and 6 mortal wounds to kill a tray (most in the game). You just don't have an effective way to take these guys out.

It's the extra durability that makes the difference. You don't have to be dealing above average damage when you are well above average staying power.

The difficulty in recovering spent cards is about to go away. Viper Legion archers with a rallying musician is going to be 22 points.

Lethal is okay. It gives small formations a consistent damage buff that becomes far less important as you gain threat. It’s nothing to bash. You do get the most out of it in MSU.

I run cacophony reaver sometimes. If I’m truly going for a big damage ZerkStar. Still, the Lethal he gives is secondary to seeing the morale deck.

I still don’t value the berserker sacrifice like others do. Yes, it is technically a way to do more damage, but at best you are trading 1/1 figures for 1 damage. It is only a great ability when you see your roll and realize you need 1-2 more damage to put another wound on a high armor target, or to finish a last tray off. It isn’t a good deal in a sustained fight.

I won’t argue the threshers being durable. I can make my usual argument about chip damage, but few seem to listen.

For Rippers being durable: for the cost I would hope so.

18 points gets you a 2/1 with no armor up

20 gets you a 2/1 with a good armor up

22 gets you a 1/3 with no armor

24 gets you a 3/1 that ignores the first mortal and has no armor up.

You pay for your durability with cavalry.

In our group of six, we have:

Waiqar: 1
Daqan: 1
Latari: 3
Uthuk 1

So our "meta" is very much determined by what the Latari are doing. At the moment, it's fire rune. Fire rune / Storm Sorc wombo-combo of doom with a dash of Maegan lethal and Aliana lethal.

Luckily for us, we have two Latari players which pretty much go for max damage and another which actually plays how you would imagine Latari to play. This puts off the Uthuk, Daqan and Waiqar players who, if kitted out to specifically beat the Latari, lose to each other.

Except the Waiqar. Their losing streak is. . undying . .

So I guess there isn't really an established "this list will win unless it plays against this" style meta. Which is nice. I feel that is partly due to the community not being that large which means we don't have the table time to establish one.

That being said, I reckon we will have a meta before we get an FAQ . . .

12 hours ago, Viktus106 said:

Except the Waiqar. Their losing streak is. . undying . .

That's cold, man.

8 hours ago, Parakitor said:

That's cold, man.

Cold like the facts.

This is purely amongst our group of players though and is by no means an opinion on the faction as a whole. We have one committed Waiqar player and another which fields them occasionally.

It's mainly the Latari that ruin them. Waiqar lacks the mobility to catch them.

51 minutes ago, Viktus106 said:

Cold like the facts.

This is purely amongst our group of players though and is by no means an opinion on the faction as a whole. We have one committed Waiqar player and another which fields them occasionally.

It's mainly the Latari that ruin them. Waiqar lacks the mobility to catch them.

Has you Waiqar player picked up either wraiths or Vorun'Baby? If so, have they made any difference?

Funny. Since Gencon my Waiqar are something like 6-2 against Jukey’s Latari while my Uthuk are closer to 2-10.

Its a lot of Death Knights and Vorun’Thul. An even mix of the rest

3 hours ago, Xelto said:

Has you Waiqar player picked up either wraiths or Vorun'Baby? If so, have they made any difference?

He has and they under perform most matches. The 3 x 1 flanks fantastically through terrain and then rolls magnificent blanks. The return damage leaves them at Threat 1 and that's then done.

Alternatively, the 2 x 2 does a little bit but gets stuck on terrain or gets caught in a bad match up or shot at.

Lord V . . he has seen table time once at the moment. Got blocked by Aliana and then shot at by a 3 x 2 Maegan / Fire Rune Deepwood. Lord V then decided to stay in combat because disengaging would still put him at range 5 of the Deepwood (we measured) so he swung at Aliana, dealt a wound I think and then Aliana Packleader Spear + Ambush Predator + ALL THE DICE finished him off.

So not a great outing. I kind of feel that he is such a big threat that once he dies and what ever else was meant to be the heavy hitter aka Death Knights die, the rest of the list doesn't have the minerals.

2 hours ago, Church14 said:

Funny. Since Gencon my Waiqar are something like 6-2 against Jukey’s Latari while my Uthuk are closer to 2-10.

Its a lot of Death Knights and Vorun’Thul. An even mix of the rest

From what I have read on here, Jukey and your Uthuk go at it ALOT and considering that Uthuk are the current forum salt generator, it makes sense that Jukey would be best equipped to handle your Uthuk. I mean, if he can consistently defeat your Uthuk, then he stands a very good chance against most of the Uthuk players in the US.

Your Waiqar however, (2 death knights and Lord V ?) , I don't know a single Waiqar player in London that runs that, if they do, I haven't played against them yet but look forward it.

Reanimates and Archers are still very much a thing here, it's like the majority of Waiqar players are double core players that maybe purchased a box of death knights before Ravos decided to arrive. I mean, someone actually ran two blocks of 4 x 3 Reanimates with Necromancer and Lingering dead at a regional (forget the rest of the list, archers and a Carrion?) and there is even a Maro list knocking about somewhere.

We are in the past here.