Twn2dn said:

I'm sorry - is the implication here that Lanni needs the Castellan in order to be competitive?

Lanni could lose the Castellan and be just fine. And no, I didn't just say it should be banned, only that if it were, it would hardly make a dent in Lanni's overall ability to put together a competitive deck.

As the current metagame and card pool environment stand, I don't see a need for it to be banned. But I think FFG should keep an eye on it. For example, I would assume the Castellan makes it very hard to give Lanni any "after you play" or "comes into play" effects in new card design because every such card could be a potentially unbalancing swing in combination with it.

ktom said:

Yeah, by "crutch" I did mean "needs Castellan," though I'm inclined to agree with you. I've played plenty of games, especially since Martell box was out, that Castellan is the card that kept Lanni in the game. After those sorts of matches, and even when I win, I walk away feeling Lanni may in fact need Castellan to remain tier 1. I'm not saying it's well-reasoned logic on my part, but it definitely crosses my mind, and I wouldn't say it's completely groundless either.

By the way, excellent thoughts on the design aspect of this game. I imagine you're absolutely right: It would be very difficult to give Lanni much more "come into play" effects, though it's worth mentioning the house has received powerful "come into play" effects throughout the blocks: Enemy Informer, River Bandit?, arguably the best shadows "come into play" effects [with Guild Hall, Tyrion, and Qyburn], and Arys, so this certainly isn't a hard and fast rule. (I realize River Bandit isn't on par with the other cards, but it's by far the most playable traitor and is exceptionally good in formats where Bara is popular, such as melee.) Still, it's probably safe to say Lanni won't receive a house equivalent of Lady Dany's Chambers while Castellan is in the environment.

ktom said:

I agree with you ktom. Lanni doesn't need it, it's doesn't need to be banned, and FFG should keep an eye on it. Castellan is already a bit weaker as Lanni now has zero attachment control with the banning of Compelled. I hated playing games with Lanni where I'll have an attachment on one of my characters thinking it's safe from Castellan.....bam, my opponent plays Compelled and my character will now be knelt. Additionally, more often than not, my attachment becomes my opponent's and gets used against me.

Castellan is still one of the strongest non-unique characters in the game, but banning Compelled does weaken it a bit. Hopefully, it'll help balance the card.

FATMOUSE said:

to continue on this train of thought a milk or fishing net on castellan no longer becomes a fishing net or milk on your best character

I'll sort of join the consensus here and conditionally agree. With Compelled gone - the Castellan becomes barely tolerable. I still think it is too strong for LCG and Lannister would then be a little more balanced - but we'll see how it plays out w/o the atatchment contorl.

And Kennon - Bastard would be a MOST welcome reprint. Character and attachment control in one Nedly tool.

I would love to see Bastard return as well as some Bastard hate. Why is there no more bastard hate?

You know, that's a good question. Why no Bastard hate? I'd like a little Nedly nod there.

As for the Castellan, no, I don't feel that he's in need of the banhammer.

Not as significant as the ban (which I agree with --Compelled had a very chilling effect on put attachments into decks in my opinion), but perhaps lost in the shuffle for those who haven't looked at the FAQ in its entirety is that card sleeves are now required for sanctioned events, such as the upcoming regionals. For some of the old guard that doesn't sleeve, that's probably going to ruffle feathers.

LetsGoRed said:

While a small defeat for liberty, this is a major victory for my nerves. Though I rarely (if ever) say anything, my insides frequently cringe when I see cards shuffled without sleeves. (I even sort of hate shuffling the Warhammer Core Set cards, and I've never even thought of playing that in a tournament.) I can see how players who prefer to avoid card sleeves could be annoyed by this though.

The cynical part of me notices the rule changed after FFG started selling sleeves....

My cynical side also noticed that FFG no longer carries Dragon Shield sleeves like they used to.

And maybe as consequence of FFG's decision to part ways, it's very hard to hunt down DS sleeves in North America (I tried both locally and over the internet). I believe the availability problem is only now starting to improve. And hopefully continue to do so over the next few months as I sleeve ALL* my AGoT cards with DS.

*except the useless duplicates that exceed the triplicate limit, etc.

Yeah well - I'll never buy sleeves ro sleeve any cards. Period. This rule will never be enforced at any tournament I run.

LetsGoRed said:

And if anyone on the East Coast has an issue with my decision not to use sleeves, please let me know either here on the boards or via email so I can stop preparing for the NY regional.

I'll be happy to skip this event if my play style makes anyone uncomfortable. But I will never put my cards in sleeves. Never. Not after seven years of comeptitive play and probably a thousand dollars or more invested in this game.

I'll see you all at Black Friday otherwise.

I didn't realize sleeves were such a hot button issue. I totally support your desire to play this game the way you choose Stag, don't get me wrong. But that kind of blanket statement, saying you'll "never" play with sleeves, would in fact choose not to play at all rather than play with sleeves, almost sounds like you have a personal vendetta against the little transparent buggers. I am not trying to belittle you, I actually prefer to play without sleeves and in local play I don't sleeve my cards ever. Is it just the additional cost of sleeves you are against? Your passion is pretty intense...I need an explanation man. Why are sleeves so objectionable to you?

I prefer not to play with sleeves also (someting about the feel of them is wrong when I play/shuffle...plus I swear I get bad draws when sleeved )

however after returning from my 1st gencon where I played a ton of games both in tournaments and tests against my travel mates with an unsleeved deck I can still point to the 60 cards I used there from the back. They just got waaaay to beat up. I've sleeved every time i've gone to a tourney since.

On a non-cynical note, thye could have done this to make LCG's have simular rules (CoC requires sleeves because of different backs)

Syd said:

I can't shuffle properly with them.

They feel slippery and rubbery and cards slip and slide while you are playing with them.

They discomfit my play style.

They are an added expense I did not sign up for when buying into the game.

I choose not to play with them - and i'm not changing my play style becuase FFG wants to sell more rpoduct. i don't care if may cards get beat up, I never cared about the aesthetics of the things. You're right syd - i am passionate about such thngs because it directly affects my enjoyment of actually playing the game. Ist a big deal to me, but I would never want to put an East Coast TO in an uncomfortable position and i'll be happy to skip any tournaments where this "rule" is an issue.

Its not a big loss for me - I am a TO and I can set up events in and around my home group that I am pretty confident will be well attended. and I promise - this rule will NEVER be enforced at an event I direct.

Period. No negotiation.

Lars said:

Plus, the curious reference to "marking or manipulating decks by the size of their cards" refers to a problem that is experienced by Warhammer Invasion players, but not (as far as I know) to AGOT. I'm guessing that when the official tournament rules for Warhammer are released, they'll have the same text verbatim.

So that would make two out of three LCGs that require sleeves due to production issues. Perhaps Lars is right, that they decided to include AGOT just for consistency.

kpmccoy21 said:

I hates the bastards.

Arma virumque said:

Well, production issues aside.... As one who has specialized in all sorts of card cheating methods such as (bottom dealing, center dealing, riffle stacking, marking, etc. etc) Any deck of cards can be marked and manipulated. Cards that are used heavily, even unintentionally, are essentially 'marked' with dirt and grim, crimps and bends. So even your average player with no cheating skills to speak of can have advantage play by being able to identify some smudge or bend in a card and playing accordingly. However, sleeving cards and cheating are not mutually exclusive. If someone really wants to cheat or take advantage they are going to do it with or without sleeves. I sleeve my cards just because I want them to last as long as possible.

Some of the chapter pack cards were slightly larger and could be identified in the deck that way. That might also be part of the reason for sleeving. But I'm not sure that is an exclusively recent phenomenon.

Personally, I would never call foul if my opponent did not sleeve his deck at a Regional. And I almost always sleeve my decks. Too many ruined cards from my Dad and I playing the Battletech CCG.

kpmccoy21 said:

Personally I don't worry too much about the larger cards being used for cheating (referring to the Warhammer problem, here). The size difference is only a couple millimeters, and I would find it hard to spot that difference visually. But the extra length made a decent shuffle almost impossible, because the shorter cards from the Core Set would bunch together.

I didn't want to sleeve my cards, because I enjoy the tactile feel of a good shuffle. But I bought some high-quality sleeves and was pleasantly surprised that they didn't annoy me as much as I thought they would.

kpmccoy21 said:

yep. And AGOT suffers from it too. I have different chapter packs that have slight variances in width. I have multiple core sets and decks in one set have slightly different tint on the edges then ones from another core set.

Stalkingwolf said:

Yep, I have experienced the same thing. I could cut to To Be a Wolf every time if I wanted to when unsleeved. I'm with Twn2dn - I haven't shuffled unsleeved in a long time and just the thought of it makes me uneasy. If I play with a deck of cards that have been played unsleeved for a while, I can tell what I'm going to draw next turn by looking at the top of my deck. Personally, I have found the AGoT to be really friendly and encouraging so I wouldn't ever suspect someone of cheating at AGoT (it's not like it's Magic or something). If other people feel passionately about playing unsleeved it's fine with me, but I could never do it myself because I would find it hard not to cheat unintentionally.

Stag Lord said:

Yeah, I doubt TO's will really mind so much as to ban people from playing with unsleeved cards unless it becomes an issue...that sounds pretty draconian, at least among the players in this community. (In Magic the Gathering tournaments though, I would not put it past some of those players and have even seen some try to pass of fake cards that were sleeved, because people don't check closely.)

One possible workaround that I think is a decent compromise is for players to ask to shuffle an opponent's deck that isn't sleeved. Chances are, if someone is going to benefit from unsleeved cards (intentionally or otherwise), it will come out in how that person shuffles. I've shuffled opponent's cards in the past (shuffled Paul's deck in the Black Friday's finals game, even though his deck was sleeved), and I ALWAYS feel like a jerk doing it. The thing is though, if the opponent draws really well that game, I can at least blame it on my own shuffling rather than some small part of the back of my mind wondering if my opponent's "luck" was just the result of a deck that wasn't shuffled enough. In the end, I'd rather not lose sleep over those what-if moments...and who can complain to a little bit more shuffling, so long as you're polite about it and ask before you touch the cards?