The cutoff for “combat carrier” seems to be squadrons 3. The Gladiator is squadrons 2. And now, with wave 7, we have Taskmaster Grint. A universal EHB.

Yes, there are obvious downsides. Demolisher wants to nav/CF, and you can’t do that nearly as much. It also can’t bring boosted comms, so you’d better stay in command range. Lastly, Demolisher tends to die, often mid-game. So why would anyone want this? First off, many lists will be entirely willing to try rushing a Quasar/Gozantis. “Rushing Demolisher” is a lot less appealing. Similarly, Demo wants to end up where LFCs want to end up, i.e. firing into a nearby enemy hull zone, making range somewhat less of a concern (Jendon could also function as a nice safety net.) Speaking of which, calling in three squadrons before shooting is better than any CF command. Even if you choose to play cautiously, you now have a fairly safe, fairly cost effective, maneuverable carrier.

The real benefit, though, is that you’ve managed to cram another distinct threat into your list, just as dangerous as any other Demolisher if they don’t respect it. Perpetually cramped Sloane lists in particular could appreciate this. Thoughts?

it's not that i hate the idea but I find multi role stuff like this to not work terribly well. Most carriers REALLY want to squadron command, demo 90% of the time wants to nav command. There are times that either might use the other command(con fire generally for demo but still, same idea) but the amount of times you want to run the squadron/con fire command isn't high enough to justify building/planning around that mindset. /shrug, try it, see what you think but I doubt you'll see "dramatic" success beyond just running demo as a standard build(which is still fine, demo is great).

You can use Gladiators for squad commands once, maybe twice, a game provided you're holding them back to act as finishers. In a double-Glad fleet it's not uncommon that I'd use the non- Demolisher flagship Glad that way and on round 2 or 3 it would often still be biding its time and didn't mind issuing a squads command to help the Gozantis early on when all my squads were still alive.

I feel it should be noted that Demolisher itself has much better things to do with its command dials than trying to utilize Squads 2 because the Demolisher title is expensive and because it can be very effective with the right command dials and you really need to not be farting around with squadron dials when it has more pressing things to do. Gladiators are mediocre carriers at best and trying to optimize them as carriers with a squad-booster officer and/or something like Fighter Coordination Teams often has a fairly substantial opportunity cost. I can't say I really recommend it.

With all that said, it can be handy giving Demolisher a squad token if you're using Jonus and Demolisher is a Gladiator-II. It allows Jonus to get into position as a spotter for Demolisher before its attacks and guarantees an accuracy in each attack.

@anothermorat Channel your inner 2015

It seems the main issue is that Demo has better things to do with its dials. If so, would this not be a good place for Thrawn? He can do the navs and cfs, Demo can do the squad commands for three turns (would he need more?), and boom! problem solved.

It seems like a pretty good idea, at least it has potential. Maybe with Jendon, Maarek, and either Jonus or some other bomber. You'd also need Dengar nearby.

Yes Trawn has a lot of possibilities for a Demolisher carrier but that is only one ship and Thrawn would really like to be doing things for the whole fleet.

A cheaper option is the SFO. Just plot alternating Squad & Nav commands and the first officer can get you either. Bank a nav and comms net over a squad token on turn one. The carrier Demolisher should only need to squadron twice a game and on the turn you use SFO you get to set 2 dials for the next couple of turns so see if your fighters are still alive or if you should switch to nav or CF commands.

Non demolisher glad has potential using demolisher as a carrier hurts it.

Demo works quite well as a carrier, especially configured with Glad-II and using Thrawn (pair with either other carriers or other ships that really want Nav commands, such as Arquitens or ISDs). Glad-II gives you 2-blue flak. Putting 4 blue dice into a large group of enemy squadrons from the carrier is pretty amazing, and you can do that without double-arcing because of Demo . I recommend either Grint, as mentioned, or Flight Commander, depending on whether your focus is bomber or anti-squadron. If anti-squadron (or switch hitter), run it with External Racks instead of APTs, since those can fill either role.

Going to strongly disagree with the popular sentiment. I use JJ and bank a nav early, so my use for nav dials is meh... CF gets you one additional die... A squad command with token gets you a heck of a lot more.. Think Jendon/morna plus Maarek, and you are doing like 4.5avg plus near guaranteed 2 damage in addition to demolisher shots... Yeeeeeeah....

In fact I'm of the position that if you have any significant squadron attack available during demo's activation, then if you are not doing a squad command, you are doing it wrong!

I've been running a Thrawn hybrid fleet using this rough idea. It was 2 glads 1arq 1 gozer and a medium fighter group of around 100 points focusing on bombers. I'd put 2 squadron and 1 nav dial as thrawn, giving me the squadron power to push all my squads for free for at least 2 turns, and then adjust to manual squad commands depending on how many I had left. It worked surprisingly well!

Demo approaching a target is very scary already. A demo attack run that also starts with Jonus and another TIE bomber or two is brutal.

My general plan was for Insidious and the Arq to take charge of the anti-squad component, and Demo would push Jonus, Gamma, and either a generic bomber or Tempest squad.

Without Thrawn dials though I can't recommend it. Getting the full value of a navigate dial (and ET) is just too important for demolisher.

A friend of mine found great success with a dual glad dual raider list that had a bunch of squads. Everything hit hard but the squads were the real issue. Lots of extra dice whittling down shields or defense tokens early.

The relay nerf took this idea from, "Fun and interesting but still competitive off meta choice" to "nope".

I played a fair bit of Demo carriers, usually with motti and then with Thrawn and it was a solid fleet that I really enjoyed. However, now with the relay and flotilla nerf its not only incredibly risky as you sink your entire fleet into 2 or 3 fragile small bases and flotillas, so getting tabled is always a threat.

The real nail in the coffin though is the relay nerf. If you are playing fragile carriers in a "table the carriers" squad meta, you need to be agile and arc dodge. With relay nerfed, it's pretty much impossible to move fast and arc dodge and also stay in range of your squads since being forced to keep them in range will make your maneuver predictable, which means dead Glads. Keeping 1 of your ships in range with nurelay sure, no problem. But when you have to spread out yout 5 small ships 1 or 2 relay squads just doesn't cut it. Turn 2 you could probably activate your whole ball, but it becomes decreasingly effective each turn as you spread out.

I even tried subbing in Centicore in lieu of relay, but there's just not enough points on the board then.

The FAQ was altogether a good thing, but gladiator carriers is one fleet that I would say didn't survive the nerfs.

16 minutes ago, BrobaFett said:

The relay nerf took this idea from, "Fun and interesting but still competitive off meta choice" to "nope".

I played a fair bit of Demo carriers, usually with motti and then with Thrawn and it was a solid fleet that I really enjoyed. However, now with the relay and flotilla nerf its not only incredibly risky as you sink your entire fleet into 2 or 3 fragile small bases and flotillas, so getting tabled is always a threat.

The real nail in the coffin though is the relay nerf. If you are playing fragile carriers in a "table the carriers" squad meta, you need to be agile and arc dodge. With relay nerfed, it's pretty much impossible to move fast and arc dodge and also stay in range of your squads since being forced to keep them in range will make your maneuver predictable, which means dead Glads. Keeping 1 of your ships in range with nurelay sure, no problem. But when you have to spread out yout 5 small ships 1 or 2 relay squads just doesn't cut it. Turn 2 you could probably activate your whole ball, but it becomes decreasingly effective each turn as you spread out.

I even tried subbing in Centicore in lieu of relay, but there's just not enough points on the board then.

The FAQ was altogether a good thing, but gladiator carriers is one fleet that I would say didn't survive the nerfs.

What about this:

Demo Carrier Trial
Author: ForceGhostofNobodyInParticular

Faction: Galactic Empire
Points: 400/400

Commander: Grand Admiral Thrawn

Assault Objective: Custom Objective
Defense Objective: Custom Objective
Navigation Objective: Custom Objective

Gladiator II-Class Star Destroyer (62 points)
- Demolisher ( 10 points)
- Taskmaster Grint ( 5 points)
- Ordnance Experts ( 4 points)
- Engine Techs ( 8 points)
- Assault Proton Torpedoes ( 5 points)
= 94 total ship cost

[ flagship ] Imperial II-Class Star Destroyer (120 points)
- Grand Admiral Thrawn ( 32 points)
- Strategic Adviser ( 4 points)
- Gunnery Team ( 7 points)
- Electronic Countermeasures ( 7 points)
- X17 Turbolasers ( 6 points)
- Leading Shots ( 4 points)
= 180 total ship cost

Gozanti-class Cruisers (23 points)
= 23 total ship cost

1 Maarek Steele ( 21 points)
1 Dengar ( 20 points)
1 Colonel Jendon ( 20 points)
1 Captain Jonus ( 16 points)
1 Boba Fett ( 26 points)
= 103 total squadron cost

Card view link

Demo uses squad commands to move Jendon, Maarek, and either Jonus or Boba into combat. Dengar hangs around to allow them to move. The squads supplement Demo's attack, and it can still operate without them. I leave objective choice to you.

If you want, drop Jonus and make Demo a I, freeing up 22 points for different squads and comms net on the goz.

Symptom of what I said above- just not enough points to do any 1 thing effectively. No bid and 4 ships means you don't win first or last so oppenent having first last will be pretty certain.

Ships are good but Demo is too flimsy to withstand last first, so bringing that firepower to bear without trading Demo will be tough as he will likely eat the full last/first wrath of whatever your opponents best ship is.

If you ran all three ships naked (except strat advisor as he is non-optional) it would give you 56 extra points. You could build to 134 to get your squad quantity equal to your activation ability, which is 6 without grint and with him is 7, which is a strong ace heavy 134pt ball.

That gives you 25 extra points to upgrade ships. Ecm and leading shots is 11, ords and apt is 9, so you have 5 for bid or grint. I'd probably go bid and hope you get first.

And thats it. Still doesnt remedy the problem of being last first though.

thing is you don't even need grint on demo... skilled first officer and banking squad tokens via comms net or Hondo is better

If you want a bid just downgrade the ISD-2 to any of the other variants...

So what about this:

Demo Carrier Trial V1
Author: ForceGhostofNobodyInParticular

Faction: Galactic Empire
Points: 390/400

Commander: Grand Admiral Thrawn

Assault Objective: Custom Objective
Defense Objective: Custom Objective
Navigation Objective: Custom Objective

Gozanti-class Cruisers (23 points)
- Comms Net ( 2 points)
= 25 total ship cost

Gozanti-class Cruisers (23 points)
- Comms Net ( 2 points)
= 25 total ship cost

[ flagship ] Imperial II-Class Star Destroyer (120 points)
- Grand Admiral Thrawn ( 32 points)
- Strategic Adviser ( 4 points)
- Gunnery Team ( 7 points)
- Electronic Countermeasures ( 7 points)
- X17 Turbolasers ( 6 points)
- Leading Shots ( 4 points)
= 180 total ship cost

Gladiator I-Class Star Destroyer (56 points)
- Demolisher ( 10 points)
- Ordnance Experts ( 4 points)
- Engine Techs ( 8 points)
- Assault Proton Torpedoes ( 5 points)
= 83 total ship cost

1 Maarek Steele ( 21 points)
1 Dengar ( 20 points)
1 Colonel Jendon ( 20 points)
1 Major Rhymer ( 16 points)
= 77 total squadron cost

Card view link

10 point bid, 5 ships. We don't need Grint, since the Comms Nets keep passing the necessary tokens (I considered Wulff, but that only leaves 3 points for bid). The fighter wing is minimal because it only needs to last a few turns - just enough to aid Demo in adding several dice more to a couple of attacks. Even one attack, really, if it's a good one. Maybe swap Rhymer for Tempest, to keep the rest alive even longer. It's threat is, I think, fairly decent, since an ISD-II+Demo pairing is a threat regardless, and the squads only make it worse. Additionally, the ISD can use them if it needs to to aid it in its attacks, should Demo be unable. Demo and Maarek/Jendon cover one flank and the ISD takes the other (actual deployment may very). It's only for a hit-and-run of a turn or two, just enough to ensure the death of the main target.

Also, @Green Knight : Rhymer's card is still the pre-nerf version.

42 minutes ago, SkyCake said:

thing is you don't even need grint on demo... skilled first officer and banking squad tokens via comms net or Hondo is better

Using a comms net to let Demo activate 2 squads is perverse. Just use the flotilla as the carrier

1 minute ago, Ginkapo said:

Using a comms net to let Demo activate 2 squads is perverse. Just use the flotilla as the carrier

The point is to get the squads in immediately before Demo's run, which requires Demo to activate them.

30 minutes ago, GhostofNobodyInParticular said:

So what about this:

Demo Carrier Trial V1
Author: ForceGhostofNobodyInParticular

Faction: Galactic Empire
Points: 390/400

Commander: Grand Admiral Thrawn

Assault Objective: Custom Objective
Defense Objective: Custom Objective
Navigation Objective: Custom Objective

Gozanti-class Cruisers (23 points)
- Comms Net ( 2 points)
= 25 total ship cost

Gozanti-class Cruisers (23 points)
- Comms Net ( 2 points)
= 25 total ship cost

[ flagship ] Imperial II-Class Star Destroyer (120 points)
- Grand Admiral Thrawn ( 32 points)
- Strategic Adviser ( 4 points)
- Gunnery Team ( 7 points)
- Electronic Countermeasures ( 7 points)
- X17 Turbolasers ( 6 points)
- Leading Shots ( 4 points)
= 180 total ship cost

Gladiator I-Class Star Destroyer (56 points)
- Demolisher ( 10 points)
- Ordnance Experts ( 4 points)
- Engine Techs ( 8 points)
- Assault Proton Torpedoes ( 5 points)
= 83 total ship cost

1 Maarek Steele ( 21 points)
1 Dengar ( 20 points)
1 Colonel Jendon ( 20 points)
1 Major Rhymer ( 16 points)
= 77 total squadron cost

Card view link

Swap out APTs for External Racks. You can use them against a particularly troublesome squadron in a pinch if needed. Also saves 2 points.

Add Grint to the Glad.

Drop one or both Gozanti cruisers to trim points. Put those back into more squadrons.

Don’t worry about a bid; instead take objectives that allow you to be happy with either first or second player.

Swap out Gunnery Team for Flight Controllers. If you are using a Thrawn dial, you might as well get some mileage from the ISD’s prodigious Squadron value.

7 minutes ago, stonestokes said:

Swap out APTs for External Racks. You can use them against a particularly troublesome squadron in a pinch if needed. Also saves 2 points.

Add Grint to the Glad.

Drop one or both Gozanti cruisers to trim points. Put those back into more squadrons.

Don’t worry about a bid; instead take objectives that allow you to be happy with either first or second player.

Swap out Gunnery Team for Flight Controllers. If you are using a Thrawn dial, you might as well get some mileage from the ISD’s prodigious Squadron value.

That leads back into almost the same fleet as last time, which Broba said was to spread out to be useful.

I can't think of many objectives this fleet would like as either player, and 4 is, I think, the minimum number of activations this fleet can take. I'd only swap GT for FC if I added more squads, which can only happen if I get rid of something. Since if would have to be a Goz, that only allows for a few more squads, and not enough to really make it worth it. The main point of the squads are to punch Demo's target immediately before Demo attacks. If the ISD is using them to attack squads, something has probably gone wrong. They are not meant for anti-fighter. That's why Dengar's there. They just want to hit a ship a couple of times and that's it. Grint was added before, but with Comms Net, do I still need him? As for APT v ER, I prefer APT since Demo is still primarily concerned with hurting ships. With ER, you only get two dice once, as opposed to a potential extra face-up every time you attack, and if you waste it against squads, Demo is in a sorry state (since, as I said, the combo is oriented toward ignoring squads).

On 4/29/2018 at 8:26 AM, Ginkapo said:

@anothermorat Channel your inner 2015

Ah back in the day...

You can do it, and a demo Glad II with ruthless strategist is surprisingly effective if you have some high hull squads to throw in. But honestly you will have the gozanti anyway in an MSU so you might as well give them a job to do.

GSD2 would be a potentially lethal combo vs squadrons with the right collection of upgrades and squads, but the superior play is almost always to just kill the enemy carrier anyway.