8 minutes ago, Coldhands said:

Kitted our pretty much, I could cut back on a couple of upgrades, but the aim is pretty much to pop one large ship a turn without much fuss.

If you catch it. 4 activations, 4 deployments, no bid, no squadrons. This doesn't sound like a good proposition to me.

22 minutes ago, ovinomanc3r said:

Your lack of prodigality disturb me.

Vader should just go back to a Raider where he belongs and should stop interfering with fleet operations

22 minutes ago, Ardaedhel said:

Why do people keep saying this? You guys understand that a tabling is not a 400 MoV 10-1, right? You get 400 points for the tabled fleet, you don't wipe out all the points that player made. If you have 100 points left on the table when you table your opponent, that's still only a 7-4.

That is true, but there are a lot of people who used to be able to bank 150 points (or more) in squads + flotillas and virtually guarantee that their losses will be minor who are no longer able to do so.

Depending on how many people try to throw a 1+5 Sloane fleet on the table at Worlds, 10-1 victories might not be particularly uncommon. (Not that you can do that now, but you know what I mean.)

Just now, PT106 said:

Vader should just go back to a Raider where he belongs and should stop interfering with fleet operations

You made it personal.

2 minutes ago, PT106 said:

If you catch it. 4 activations, 4 deployments, no bid, no squadrons. This doesn't sound like a good proposition to me.

The only reasonable objective for the opponent is to pick is Solar corona as you dont want a pricetag on your juiciest ship or a warlord/demo in your back, so 4 deployments solved. And, as P2, opponent has to come at me. This list killed large ships at long range(well, Demo sweeps up after Avenger). Also, activation count wont matter against pryce, and she features now in many lists.

6 minutes ago, Coldhands said:

The only reasonable objective for the opponent is to pick is Solar corona as you dont want a pricetag on your juiciest ship or a warlord/demo in your back, so 4 deployments solved. And, as P2, opponent has to come at me. This list killed large ships at long range(well, Demo sweeps up after Avenger). Also, activation count wont matter against pryce, and she features now in many lists.

Squad-heavy fleet would choose most wanted and deploy in the opposite corner. Strategic fleet would be happy with Hyperspace Assault. Some fleets would give you first player. some would last-first you. I understand your tactic but it does feel like too many eggs in one basket for me.

1 hour ago, PT106 said:

Well, here I would have to disagree with you. Without tabling rule you'll see people running naked 18pts flotilla to a corner as a tabling insurance.

The benefit of such action is big: against a squadron-light fleet it ensures that flotilla and the squadrons are guaranteed survivors for a nice 100+ points cushion, while also giving the squadrons full 6 rounds of attacks against opponent fleet. The cost is small - 18 points of a ship that can't attack other ships anyway. And to counter it, a dedicated hunter that can take out flotillas (so 50+ points at least and 70+ is more likely IF you have one in your fleet) should be out of the game to catch and kill that single flotilla.

This doesn't sound like a more dynamic or balanced game to me.

That was exactly why I advocated a cheap flotilla and Squadron hunting platform. The answer is more options, not less.

34 minutes ago, cynanbloodbane said:

That was exactly why I advocated a cheap flotilla and Squadron hunting platform. The answer is more options, not less.

Advocating a single “type” of thing as a pseudo mandatory requirement is just less options in disguise.

... since you gotta take it.

1 hour ago, Drasnighta said:

Advocating a single “type” of thing as a pseudo mandatory requirement is just less options in disguise.

... since you gotta take it.

Just to be clear, if it's good enough at its role (destroying squads/flotillas) then it will become both a necessary include (because you want to counter those fleets) AND useless (because nobody will bring a fleet that it counters).

1 hour ago, Drasnighta said:

Advocating a single “type” of thing as a pseudo mandatory requirement is just less options in disguise.

... since you gotta take it.

Quoted for truth. I've played games where mandatory silver bullet counters are their way of "fixing" something and the games get bloated and bad very quickly. Less options overall, more points/deck space wasted on counter-garbage. Less and less freedom to design lists/decks the way you want as the required number of counters you need to include increases. People leave, game dies. Every time.

3 hours ago, Coldhands said:

At this point, rebels have easier time fielding 3 combat ships. ISD-Demo-2xgoz, 80 squad,20 point bid, general, and youre out of points pretty much. Also, if you aim for 3 combat ships, what can you go for, really? Arq are, well... you know them. Vics are bricks(hard to aim with them, but if you hit, it hits hard). Raiders... Some love them, I consider them meh. Leaves ISD-s and Demo(not glads). .

I love when folks put down the Arquitens. It is a brutally effective ship when kitted and flown well. The problem is learning to fly them, kitting them out is pretty simple. It has taken a lot of practice but Arquitens have become my second favorite imperial ship to the ISD. I think you have to find a way to make them more maneuverable without having to Nav constantly. Jerjerrod is great with them, and don't discount the command cruiser with Engine Techs if you can reliably get them tokens. Arquitens need to run CF commands almost exclusively after turn 1.

Raiders suffer from poor flying as well, if you fly them like Demo they just are not gonna do anything I suggest a Raider II and not flying them too aggressive. They are super maneuverable at speed 2.

Interdictors have become much better in the fight as well. I have been running what I though was a goofy list (and it probably is) that has been performing extremely well. Some of this was to experiment, I'd never bring these squads in this list to a serious fight.

Name: Diquitens
Faction: Imperial
Commander: Moff Jerjerrod

Assault: Most Wanted
Defense: Contested Outpost
Navigation: Dangerous Territory

Interdictor Suppression Refit (90)
• Moff Jerjerrod (23)
• Captain Brunson (5)
• Projection Experts (6)
• Disposable Capacitors (3)
• Grav Shift Reroute (2)
• G7-X Grav Well Projector (2)
• High-Capacity Ion Turbines (8)
• Interdictor (3)
= 142 Points

Arquitens Light Cruiser (54)
• Turbolaser Reroute Circuits (7)
• Centicore (3)
= 64 Points

Arquitens Light Cruiser (54)
• Turbolaser Reroute Circuits (7)
= 61 Points

Arquitens Light Cruiser (54)
• Turbolaser Reroute Circuits (7)
= 61 Points

Gozanti Cruisers (23)
• Comms Net (2)
= 25 Points

Squadrons:
• Bossk (23)
• Gar Saxon (23)
= 46 Points

Total Points: 399

7 minutes ago, Thrindal said:

I love when folks put down the Arquitens. It is a brutally effective ship when kitted and flown well. The problem is learning to fly them, kitting them out is pretty simple. It has taken a lot of practice but Arquitens have become my second favorite imperial ship to the ISD. I think you have to find a way to make them more maneuverable without having to Nav constantly. Jerjerrod is great with them, and don't discount the command cruiser with Engine Techs if you can reliably get them tokens. Arquitens need to run CF tokens almost exclusively after turn 1.

Raiders suffer from poor flying as well, if you fly them like Demo they just are not gonna do anything I suggest a Raider II and not flying them too aggressive. They are super maneuverable at speed 2.

Interdictors have become much better in the fight as well. I have been running what I though was a goofy list (and it probably is) that has been performing extremely well. Some of this was to experiment, I'd never bring these squads in this list to a serious fight.

Arqs might be effective, might work for you. But probably there is a reason behind them not being fielded too often, and I might be missing something, but I keep an eye on tourney results, list, and Im yet to see a top4 list at regionals level or higher fielding arq-s. Once I first-lasted a liberty with it, it has the potential. Just, other ships are better, lets face it.
Raiders suffer from the lack of redirect. Simple as that. At speed 2 ISD is almost as manueverable as the raider. Spit on them and they are dead, gotta treat them with extreme care, squadron cover is a must for them. Best use of them is hit-and-run.
Interdictors are in a better place now, no doubt. For me, its VSD2 vs interdictor. The little trick vs firepower. Depending on what I need do I pick.

1 minute ago, Coldhands said:

Arqs might be effective, might work for you. But probably there is a reason behind them not being fielded too often, and I might be missing something, but I keep an eye on tourney results, list, and Im yet to see a top4 list at regionals level or higher fielding arq-s. Once I first-lasted a liberty with it, it has the potential. Just, other ships are better, lets face it.
Raiders suffer from the lack of redirect. Simple as that. At speed 2 ISD is almost as manueverable as the raider. Spit on them and they are dead, gotta treat them with extreme care, squadron cover is a must for them. Best use of them is hit-and-run.
Interdictors are in a better place now, no doubt. For me, its VSD2 vs interdictor. The little trick vs firepower. Depending on what I need do I pick.

I finished top 4 in our regional flying 2 Arquitens

9 minutes ago, Coldhands said:

Raiders suffer from the lack of redirect. Simple as that. At speed 2 ISD is almost as manueverable as the raider. Spit on them and they are dead, gotta treat them with extreme care, squadron cover is a must for them. Best use of them is hit-and-run.

I'm not trying to sound like a jerk here, but is your argument that Raiders aren't as good as an ISD or that they're hard to maneuver or what? Just trying to understand what you mean is all.

13 minutes ago, Coldhands said:

Im yet to see a top4 list at regionals level or higher fielding arq-s.

Thrindal already wrote about his Top-4 list, so I'll only add that Toronto regional was won by Norm Weir fielding Command Arquttens. So those lists are there.

13 minutes ago, Coldhands said:

Raiders suffer from the lack of redirect. Simple as that. At speed 2 ISD is almost as manueverable as the raider.

On a Raider brace is better than a redirect, I would say. For the price they're amazing ships but do require skillful flying. And at speed 2 ISD is much less maneuverable than a raider (can't turn 90 degrees, can't do inside turn, can't jump to speed 4).

34 minutes ago, Thrindal said:

I finished top 4 in our regional flying 2 Arquitens

Well done, congrats!

24 minutes ago, geek19 said:

I'm not trying to sound like a jerk here, but is your argument that Raiders aren't as good as an ISD or that they're hard to maneuver or what? Just trying to understand what you mean is all.

He said raiders are super maneuverable at speed 2, meaning 2x2 yaw. All Im saying is that the ISD at speed 2 can have 3 yaw which isnt far from 4 (with JJ it can reach even 4).

23 minutes ago, PT106 said:

Thrindal already wrote about his Top-4 list, so I'll only add that Toronto regional was won by Norm Weir fielding Command Arquttens. So those lists are there.

On a Raider brace is better than a redirect, I would say. For the price they're amazing ships but do require skillful flying. And at speed 2 ISD is much less maneuverable than a raider (can't turn 90 degrees, can't do inside turn, can't jump to speed 4).

Okay, this means its not impossible to win with them. At the moment I cannot back this with numbers, but its 2 out of many regionals, so...
Brace vs redirect depends really on the exact situation. Lets just say, the complete token layout is 'unfortunate'. Wish it had one less evade and a redirect, just like the glads or afs.
At skillful flying, do you mean walking on eggshells? It might be my style of flying, but usually Im not willing to trade one ship for one, driving my opponent into a situation where he/she has to decide which ship to move first, and the other will be sacrificed. With the fleet I mentioned above, lost only 1 vsd and 1 demo all 3 games. Maybe Im limiting myself from a larger arsenal(and more fitting to Imps in style) but thats personal choice. With brawlers, I prefer the olde and boring first-last mechanic(can be done with raiders too, just not hitting as hard as a glad).

4 hours ago, ovinomanc3r said:

Vader's Cymoons disagree.

Or:

Convoy Breaker (178/400)
=======================
Cymoon 1 Refit (112 + 66)
+ Admiral Screed (26)
+ Taskmaster Grint (5)
+ Veteran Gunners (5)
+ Intensify Firepower! (6)
+ Phylon Q7 Tractor Beams (6)
+ H9 Turbolasers (8)
+ Quad Turbolaser Cannons (10)

Every turn you should pop at least one if aimed right, or at least get ready to pop them next round. Side arc high possibility included if you get med range. And it's just a solid ship to have anyways. Q7 was for flavor and to get hopefully one more go if you miss. If you want to trade in

Intensify at start of turn - Flip dial - Concentrate fire - Grint up token

Attack five red -- con fire - Vet Gunners (y/n) - con fire token(y/n) - IF convert - Screed spend and convert - h9 convert - quad add an accuracy : two accuracy plus crit plus damage rolled on four leftover red with rerolls. Life is good with three guaranteed dice results.

Kills floaters real good. Make them not live no more. Make them cry. And still punch other ships straight in face. Hulk smash. Too bad there's no reason to build this anymore ... Pitch.

1 hour ago, Coldhands said:

Well done, congrats!

He said raiders are super maneuverable at speed 2, meaning 2x2 yaw. All Im saying is that the ISD at speed 2 can have 3 yaw which isnt far from 4 (with JJ it can reach even 4).

Okay, this means its not impossible to win with them. At the moment I cannot back this with numbers, but its 2 out of many regionals, so...
Brace vs redirect depends really on the exact situation. Lets just say, the complete token layout is 'unfortunate'. Wish it had one less evade and a redirect, just like the glads or afs.
At skillful flying, do you mean walking on eggshells? It might be my style of flying, but usually Im not willing to trade one ship for one, driving my opponent into a situation where he/she has to decide which ship to move first, and the other will be sacrificed. With the fleet I mentioned above, lost only 1 vsd and 1 demo all 3 games. Maybe Im limiting myself from a larger arsenal(and more fitting to Imps in style) but thats personal choice. With brawlers, I prefer the olde and boring first-last mechanic(can be done with raiders too, just not hitting as hard as a glad).

So the best thing about Armada right now is there are so many viable ways to win. I personally don't like brawlers like Demo and ISD1/Kuat. I also have trouble with Victories. They just don't fit my play style, I have tried them all and I just have more success at the long range game which includes a strategy on dealing with Brawlers when I face them.

Both styles are viable and both can have success. Competitively I never ran more than 2 flotillas so that change didn't bother me as for the tabling rule it may be too much but I like it. You can also look at it this way, your opponent probably isn't going to focus down your flotillas unless that is the only shot they have so generally you can now expect your flotillas to survive most games.

9 hours ago, PT106 said:

I think it's a good observation however I feel that tabling threat is now in a place where it was supposed to be as an additional check and balance on squad-heavy ship-light fleets.

I have to wonder if the remaining squads had a reasonable chance of killing Demo in retaliation to bring the game to double-tabling.

Sort of a good chance in this case because ciena and valen had taken out dash and tycho and the remaining squads were a couple of yt2400s some vcxs and shara. Demo had 2 front shiels 4 hull and all tokens still up. So not really likely that round but without the tabling rule could def have happened!

8 hours ago, ForceSensitive said:

Or:

Convoy Breaker (178/400)
=======================
Cymoon 1 Refit (112 + 66)
+ Admiral Screed (26)
+ Taskmaster Grint (5)
+ Veteran Gunners (5)
+ Intensify Firepower! (6)
+ Phylon Q7 Tractor Beams (6)
+ H9 Turbolasers (8)
+ Quad Turbolaser Cannons (10)

Every turn you should pop at least one if aimed right, or at least get ready to pop them next round. Side arc high possibility included if you get med range. And it's just a solid ship to have anyways. Q7 was for flavor and to get hopefully one more go if you miss. If you want to trade in

Intensify at start of turn - Flip dial - Concentrate fire - Grint up token

Attack five red -- con fire - Vet Gunners (y/n) - con fire token(y/n) - IF convert - Screed spend and convert - h9 convert - quad add an accuracy : two accuracy plus crit plus damage rolled on four leftover red with rerolls. Life is good with three guaranteed dice results.

Kills floaters real good. Make them not live no more. Make them cry. And still punch other ships straight in face. Hulk smash. Too bad there's no reason to build this anymore ... Pitch.

Wow! 178 spent on that same target which also has not any defense but its tokens. Do you know who is gonna be force choked?

I don't think it was ever a reason to build something like that. I pop flotillas with just 5 rerollable red dice. Of course I don't have room to much more but if I had, h9 seems more than enough. 6 red dice (with CF command) have almost 1 dmg average thanks to Vader (even easier with IF), get your accuracy and done.

19 hours ago, Ginkapo said:

Its sort of true.

Tabling is much simpler if taking wave 6 lists with kneejerk changes because of FAQ. The FAQ has resulted in a meta change of sizeable proportions and fleets need to be designed on this basis.

It takes a few games to get used to then its less extreme.

Reposting as sanity of response has gone over the heads of a few. No need to overreact.

15 hours ago, Coldhands said:

I think its not just my meta, but its like: bid crazy for p1, or bid almost zero. There is no middle ground like 7-10 point bids among the top players.

At the last tournament we were both at, I ran a 9 point bid and came second. I didn't really mind going first or second with my Raddus list as the objectives are all good for me.

The only reason that I would increase the bid is to get initiative from other Raddus players.

Mind you, I'm usually in the bottom half of the results and got a 10-1 first round by tabling and VIPing another Raddus list who foolishly took first against me, and it was an 8 man tournament, so I could be the definition of outlier.

I do usually run a small to medium bid, though.

Also, if people are looking for the developers explaining why they nerfed flotillas - didn’t FFG do an article on this already?

https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/news/2018/4/6/new-fleet-orders/

I love how heavy squadrons now carry a much greater risk of tabling. Opens up the design space for more options. I’m not sure the hard cap of 2 “floaters” (to quote OP, love it) was needed, but it does help MSU by being the only archetype now able to hit 6-7 activations.

Look forward to hearing about the variety at Worlds!

4 hours ago, Mundo said:

Also, if people are looking for the developers explaining why they nerfed flotillas - didn’t FFG do an article on this already?

https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/news/2018/4/6/new-fleet-orders/

I love how heavy squadrons now carry a much greater risk of tabling. Opens up the design space for more options. I’m not sure the hard cap of 2 “floaters” (to quote OP, love it) was needed, but it does help MSU by being the only archetype now able to hit 6-7 activations.

Look forward to hearing about the variety at Worlds!

Lol you reminded me when people said flotillas impact on activation was not intended and someone (was you, @Undeadguy?) pointed to the article of their release where it was say if we would use them as activation padding.

4 hours ago, Mundo said:

I love how heavy squadrons now carry a much greater risk of tabling. Opens up the design space for more options.

They’re only at higher risk if you take two flotillas AND max squadrons. Otherwise they’re right back to where they were from the pre-flotilla days. And come to think of it, my triple-Vic squadron ball from back then might not be a bad one to pull back out. . .

5 hours ago, ManInTheBox said:

At the last tournament we were both at, I ran a 9 point bid and came second. I didn't really mind going first or second with my Raddus list as the objectives are all good for me.

The only reason that I would increase the bid is to get initiative from other Raddus players.

Mind you, I'm usually in the bottom half of the results and got a 10-1 first round by tabling and VIPing another Raddus list who foolishly took first against me, and it was an 8 man tournament, so I could be the definition of outlier.

I do usually run a small to medium bid, though.

The winner had 26 point bid, you 9, me zero. I know what you mean. I think fishfarm started a trend to bid for p2 and like a year ago, 3 point ensured I can pass p1 to my opponent, now this is roughly 10-12 points sometimes.