25 minutes ago, whafrog said:

When Sabine is learning to use the dark saber, it's heavier than she expects. It has inertia beyond what the handle could provide. It's magnetically drawn to other blades, which is why they stick...if it had no mass they'd just pass through each other (never mind be an infinitely long ray).

Besides, pseudo-scientifically... ... it's not a "laser sword", that's just a colloquialism. It's a hot plasma contained in an electro-magnetic energy field, and plasma is just another state of matter...

That one episode casually answered a lot of questions...

Sure sure, I knew about all that. So I'll redact my "no mass" statement. I suppose there could be a way to cram enough plasma into the stream to create equivalent mass. Sure, why not. Scientists in our galaxy have created negative mass, so why not.

However, I think the magnetic containment field is what keeps the blades from being unable to pass through each other, I don't think that's mass. But who knows!

The containment field itself probably has mass, because electrons have mass. But I'm wary of the IRL rabbit hole, so I'll just stick with the fact that they certainly act like it has mass, and a few comments from the media seem to support this.

42 minutes ago, whafrog said:

The containment field itself probably has mass, because electrons have mass. But I'm wary of the IRL rabbit hole, so I'll just stick with the fact that they certainly act like it has mass, and a few comments from the media seem to support this.

Sure, sure, negligible mass though. At least in our galaxy. Probably much less than the equivalent volume in steel. But yea, that's our galaxy.

It should also be noted that the people who came up with the explanations for lightsabers were obviously not scientists. The whole "Plasma" explanation was the most science-y sounding thing they could come up with but IRL if it was plasma it would be essentially useless, it would put off too much heat and if it struck someone they would literally explode. Since it's fantasy anyway I'd go with that it's not plasma but actually some kind of molecular disassembling beam that "cuts" by causing molecules to break their bonds without releasing a lot of energy. It wouldn't work at the atomic or sub-atomic level because that would release too much energy but something that just makes molecules not stick to each other. I admit I'm not a physicist and neither were the guys that came up with the plasma explanation buto I think my idea explains what we see in the films and such better than a heat based plasma weapon. /scientifically ignorant opinion

I disagree with you there @FuriousGreg. The blade of a lightsaber could easily be plasma, and most assuredly would be. A lightsaber blade works exactly like a plasma arc. That is exactly what a lightsaber blade is described as too. It arcs back upon itself circumventially from a positive o charged continuous energy lense to a negatively charged flux appature. Plasma arcs from a positive pole to a negative pole just like a lightsaber blade.

7 hours ago, themensch said:

Hm, I disagree. A Lightsaber blade has no mass. A sword blade has plenty. Swinging one is different entirely from another, and while flying a swoop bike and piloting a sailboat both fall under Piloting (Planetary) I feel the risk of dismemberment is considerably less than the difference between a sword and a lightsaber, thus justifying a separate skill. However, you do you! It's a fair enough argument to put it under melee at your table if you wish.

I won't get into the mass or no mass debate. I always described them as having a gyroscopic effect from the handle which is why it takes effort to swing around. Regardless, it behaves like a melee weapon. If Knives, spears, mauls, fencing swords and Giant clubs are melee I really don't see a reason to have the lightsaber be a separate skill outside of the desire for it to be special or that's they way it's always been.

It's the same logic as throwing knives, pistols, and bow's being the same skill. They're grouped by what they are, not how to use them.

double post...

2 minutes ago, Ahrimon said:

I won't get into the mass or no mass debate. I always described them as having a gyroscopic effect from the handle which is why it takes effort to swing around. Regardless, it behaves like a melee weapon. If Knives, spears, mauls, fencing swords and Giant clubs are melee I really don't see a reason to have the lightsaber be a separate skill outside of the desire for it to be special or that's they way it's always been.

It's the same logic as throwing knives, pistols, and bow's being the same skill. They're grouped by what they are, not how to use them.

Canonically, Lightsabers have also been explicitly stated to be dangerous to wield by the “uninitiated”; much more so than any standard melee weapon. And as such requires very specific training. Having training in melee weapons may make learning to use a lightsaber easier, but it is not a replacement for proper lightsaber training.

2 minutes ago, Ahrimon said:

I won't get into the mass or no mass debate. I always described them as having a gyroscopic effect from the handle which is why it takes effort to swing around. Regardless, it behaves like a melee weapon. If Knives, spears, mauls, fencing swords and Giant clubs are melee I really don't see a reason to have the lightsaber be a separate skill outside of the desire for it to be special or that's they way it's always been.

It's the same logic as throwing knives, pistols, and bow's being the same skill. They're grouped by what they are, not how to use them.

Your argument has merit, and to that end it makes me wonder if the artificial delineation imposed wasn't more a thematic necessity. To be honest, I could hurt myself pretty badly with a sword just like I could a lightsaber. I can certainly envision a giant wookiee marauder picking up a lightsaber for the first time and wielding it with great success despite never having even seen said weapon before. However, I could also see a skilled lightsaber duelist being able to soundly defeat said marauder without using the Force, too.

4 minutes ago, themensch said:

Your argument has merit, and to that end it makes me wonder if the artificial delineation imposed wasn't more a thematic necessity. To be honest, I could hurt myself pretty badly with a sword just like I could a lightsaber. I can certainly envision a giant wookiee marauder picking up a lightsaber for the first time and wielding it with great success despite never having even seen said weapon before. However, I could also see a skilled lightsaber duelist being able to soundly defeat said marauder without using the Force, too.

If you ever have a few spare hours, or really like Liam Neisen, you should watch Rob Roy. In the movie the claymore wielding Scotsmen are easily defeated by a skilled rapier wielder. The speed and precision of the weapon was too much for them. I won't spoil the ending, but it's only through the usual bad guy hubris that the good guy wins.

2 minutes ago, Ahrimon said:

If you ever have a few spare hours, or really like Liam Neisen, you should watch Rob Roy. In the movie the claymore wielding Scotsmen are easily defeated by a skilled rapier wielder. The speed and precision of the weapon was too much for them. I won't spoil the ending, but it's only through the usual bad guy hubris that the good guy wins.

I might have seen that - I've always been a fan of finesse with swords over brute strength. I think the first Highlander movie speaks to that too. I would imagine there's no lack of that now that I think on the subject... but those are all still swords.

1 hour ago, Tramp Graphics said:

I disagree with you there @FuriousGreg. The blade of a lightsaber could easily be plasma, and most assuredly would be. A lightsaber blade works exactly like a plasma arc. That is exactly what a lightsaber blade is described as too. It arcs back upon itself circumventially from a positive o charged continuous energy lense to a negatively charged flux appature. Plasma arcs from a positive pole to a negative pole just like a lightsaber blade.

I wasn't arguing that they aren't described as plasma but that it wouldn't match what we see in the films. It's all made up anyway but keep in mind that a lot of the explanations for all sorts of things were made up after the fact by scientifically ignorant fans and then incorporated into cannon not because they were the best explanations but because that's what was already there. Another example would be the canals on Mars. In the late 19th century everyone thought there were Martian made canals across the surface of Mars but it turn out to be an error in translation. Problem was it had already entered the public imagination and for decades it sparked novels and theories and all sorts of nonsense. Repeating cannon isn't a counter argument so save your finger tips

Also I found this which I liked a lot:

Yes, but it wasn’t the fans who came up with how lightsabers work. It was the people at Lucasfilm and their associated writers for the various source materials produced over the decades.

2 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Canonically, Lightsabers have also been explicitly stated to be dangerous to wield by the “uninitiated”; much more so than any standard melee weapon. And as such requires very specific training.

That's old C-canon, unless I'm very much mistaken.

1 hour ago, awayputurwpn said:

That's old C-canon, unless I'm very much mistaken.

If I remember correctly, it’s also mentioned in Rebels in that episode with Kanan training Sabine; not in those exact words, but the same lesson. The weightless blade, gyroscopic effects and such all combine to make a very dangerous weapon for the untrained.

The ultimate reason why there's a separate skill for lightsabers in this game is that they are by far one of the most potent close-combat weapons in the game, due in large part to having Breach 1 as a default option, meaning even a "glancing hit" (1 or 2 successes) is going to inflict a substantial amount of damage, even in the hands of a PC that's lacking any talents or abilities to enhance their lightsaber usage and only has a single rank of Lightsaber and a Brawn of 2.

This is in stark contrast to melee weapons such as the vibrosword and vibroax, both of which either need a lot of successes or an additional investment in XP and/or credits to be able to reliably compete with ranged weapons, especially those in the Ranged (Heavy) category, which also have the benefit of range. Melee-based weapons need specs like Marauder and Commando to really be viable in terms of competing with ranged weapons, while the lightsaber category of weapons doesn't have to fret that much thanks again to the Breach 1 quality, so that even a bog-standard unmodded basic lightsaber is still going to inflict significant damage to an opponent in the hands of barely-trained users.

There's also the historical precedent within Star Wars RPGs dating back to WEG's d6 system that using a lightsaber required it's own specialized skill, with WotC carrying on that tradition by having a Weapon Group (Lightsabers) proficiency/feat in all three of their d20-based RPGs, and a great many SWRPG fan hacks doing the same, simply based upon various notions backed by psuedo-science of the author's choice that wielding a lightsaber is different from wielding more traditional melee weapons.

Granted, arguing for "realism" in a setting that pretty explicitly flaunts the laws of physics as we understand them at the drop of a hat is itself rather foolish.

On 4/27/2018 at 11:28 AM, whafrog said:

The containment field itself probably has mass, because electrons have mass. But I'm wary of the IRL rabbit hole, so I'll just stick with the fact that they certainly act like it has mass, and a few comments from the media seem to support this.

I agree and im of the opinion that since the hilt is surprisingly heavy for a sword wielder that when ignited actually weighs more than when unignited. Explains in the movies why they are wielded more like swords instead of being weightless laser rapiers.

I'd agree that logically, it makes no sense for the alchemical blade to use lightsaber skill vs using melee. If melee covers axes, hammers, daggers/knives, longswords, katanas, spears and other forms of melee weapons then its simply illogical.

All of those basic weapons have very different handling and are used with different techniques. Of course, logically, you would break things down to nearly individual skills with all these different weapons, and the game would be a mess in exchange for some "realism" that doesn't really fit with this particular game. Letting someone use the sith blade with melee is probably fine and not really game breaking, they just made the decision to lump it with Lightsabers because it made for some mechanical balance sense rather than realistic logic.

As for Lightsabers needing their own skill, sure, that is actually logical. Its less about weight however, long swords and katanas only weigh a few pounds are depending how they are weighted are extremely versatile and lively. Also consider the first statement I made. That range of weapons included in the Melee skill have wildly different weights. A 8ft polearm with a wooden shaft and blade on the end weighs a good bit more than a 3-4ft sword or a dagger. If you can learn to wield all those disparate weapons equally well, there is no reason you can't learn to use a lightsaber based on its weight alone.

The real reason lightsabers would require special training is because of all the things you can and can't do with a lightsaber. You are far more likely to injure or kill yourself with a lightsaber than a regular sword. You can grab a sharp metal blade with your bare hands if you do it correctly and not cut yourself (although in reality you wear hand protection in sword fighting since thats one of the most commonly and easily injured parts of your body next to maybe the head). There are many techniques with real swords that involve grabbing the blade (the so-called murder stroke and various half-swording techniques). Some blades are blunt one one side which can enable pushing on the back of the blade when cutting. You can't do any of that with a light saber (unless you had cortosis gloves maybe). This means standard training won't apply much.

A lightsaber can cut through most normal weapons and armor. Moves that would let you trip or bind an opponent with a normal sword or polearm instead are more likely to sever their limbs. You need to account for this behavior and learn to take advantage of it as well as avoid taking off your own limbs or losing your balance and creating an opening for other opponents.

The reason for separating out Lightsabers from Melee weapons that makes the most sense to me has nothing to do with physics or weapon design, but is more likely the extreme rarity of the weapon & thus a rarity in fighting with it. While any Han can turn one on and cut open a dead Tauntaun, actually fighting someone with it would take years of study and training to be any good. The same could be said for your average sword/club/spear/axe/etc.; and while some of that training may carry over, you definitely wouldn't be as effective with a lightsaber.

It should also be noted (and confirmed be the devs) That Ancient Swords can be used with the Reflect talent, just like lightsabers because Ancient Swords are classified as “lightsaber weapons”.

Perhaps Lightsabers are "laser" swords after all...

"Lightsaber" Molecule

"The strongest stars have hearts of khyber."