Why is Ancient Sword requires Lightsaber skill instead of Melee?

Doesn't seem t o make any sense

The weapon's description should answer this, particularly the following sentence: "These weapons possessed strikingly shaped blades and a unique balance that made them difficult to master for those used to wielding more mundane weapons."

My understanding was that they were what ancient Jedi used before the lightsaber was invented; so I guess FFG just wanted to make it such that if a Jedi character got ahold of one, they'd be able to wield it as well as they could wield a lightsaber.

That's the game-level reason, anyway; awayputurwpn cover the IN-game reason.

Mechanics-wise, the Ancient Sword exists to provide those PCs that opted to start play with one of the Lightsaber Form specs and thus probably have ranks in the Lightsaber skill an option that allows them to use said skill and associated talents like Parry and (per a recent dev answer at least) Reflect without needing to have a full-blown lightsaber in hand. Yes, the training lightsaber is a thing, but some players and GMs don't care for the notion of a lightsaber that isn't an inherently dangerous weapon, so for those in that line of thinking, the ancient sword is an option.

It also allows PCs to use the Lightsaber skill and associated Lightsaber-based talents with a weapon that won't immediately garner a lot of unfriendly attention during the Rebellion Era in which the game line is predominantly set.

He is right it makes no sense. Description to try to make sense of it fails. "These weapons possessed strikingly shaped blades and a unique balance that made them difficult to master for those used to wielding more mundane weapons."

All the other skills are taken very broadly. Ranged Light, anything from knife fighting, shooting a bow or a blaster. Melee, anything from a knife, a pole arm, sword, and more exotic weapons.

Im thinking about giving it the same treatment as Ranged. Melee Light, Melee Heavy and also removing thrown weapons from Ranged Skills. This means, Lightsaber is replaced by Melee- Light, and Specialties with the skill Melee must choose which one they have,

Alternatively Im favoring just allowing Lightsaber to be expanded into Melee - Light only and make Melee Light & Heavy inclusive to the Melee Skill.

If you like that idea maybe you can help with the descriptions to cover all the bases.

Melee Light: include weapons wielded to best effect with one hand using quickness and precision and including throwing weapons.

Melee Heavy: include weapons wielded to best effect with two hands using powerful forceful movements and difficult to handle exotic weapons, heavy weapons are never throwing weapons.

So make a "really old sword" that uses Melee and call it done....

As @Vorzakk and @Donovan Morningfire said, the ancient sword uses the Lightsaber skill for attacks because it was the weapon used by the Jedi before the lightsaber was invented, and the techniques used wielding lightsabers were based off of the techniques originally used with this sword.

13 minutes ago, Buddha Fett said:

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In a setting where lightsabers are so iconic, why depreciate the Lightsaber skill? "The Force, "Jedi," and "lightsabers" are probably the first three things people think of when they think "Star Wars."

Both from the standpoint of pretty much all recent stories (and plenty in the past) and from the game itself, lightsabers are magic weapons. It makes plenty of sense for lightsabers to be in their own category.

32 minutes ago, Buddha Fett said:

Im thinking about giving it the same treatment as Ranged. Melee Light, Melee Heavy and also removing thrown weapons from Ranged Skills. This means, Lightsaber is replaced by Melee- Light, and Specialties with the skill Melee must choose which one they have,

...so what you're saying is, "A sword that uses the Lightsaber skill makes no sense. Therefore, there should be no Lightsaber skill."

Seems like you're complicating the OP issue, and that your thoughts deserve their own topic to discuss.

48 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

As @Vorzakk and @Donovan Morningfire said, the ancient sword uses the Lightsaber skill for attacks because it was the weapon used by the Jedi before the lightsaber was invented, and the techniques used wielding lightsabers were based off of the techniques originally used with this sword.

Yes and thats the way it is.. However an ancient sword or even lightsaber as it used in the movies handles the same as any sword.

An easy solution suggests to just allow your Jedi to use Lightsaber skill with and Sword, and explain it as force attunement with the weapon. But on the flip side the Melee sword wielder with Skill 5 has skill 0 with a Lightsaber and needs to develop it or be a complete novice all of a sudden.

Perhaps a ruling like Lightsaber skill can be used to wield sword like weapons and Melee users can use sword like Lightsabers at some kind of penalty. +1 Challenge die perhaps? That way they can hit themselves on a Despair!

I think that solves it actually.

7 minutes ago, Buddha Fett said:

Perhaps a ruling like Lightsaber skill can be used to wield sword like weapons and Melee users can use sword like Lightsabers at some kind of penalty. +1 Challenge die perhaps? That way they can hit themselves on a Despair!

I'd just increase the difficulty, like you originally posted; no need to upgrade it. That's a very simple rules tweak, and feels very much in line with the rules as-is.

Hitting yourself with a weapon is not something I look for in a fun ruleset. Unless it's like a cursed "sword of backbiting" or something

On the flip side, I could see Lightsabers just being used with a Light/Heavy Melee skill (depending on if they were wielded with two hands or one, "strong" vs "fast" or what have you). That would require some more extensive tweaking (e.g. what do you do with the various "Lightsaber Form" technique talents), but would allow for more of the antics we see in TCW and other sources of Jedi using non-Lightsaber melee weapons with considerable proficiency.

8 minutes ago, Buddha Fett said:

Yes and thats the way it is.. However an ancient sword or even lightsaber as it used in the movies handles the same as any sword.

An easy solution suggests to just allow your Jedi to use Lightsaber skill with and Sword, and explain it as force attunement with the weapon. But on the flip side the Melee sword wielder with Skill 5 has skill 0 with a Lightsaber and needs to develop it or be a complete novice all of a sudden.

Perhaps a ruling like Lightsaber skill can be used to wield sword like weapons and Melee users can use sword like Lightsabers at some kind of penalty. +1 Challenge die perhaps? That way they can hit themselves on a Despair!

I think that solves it actually.

The reason for the differences is a matter of how the weapons are balanced . A Lightsaber, in particular, has a very different balance than a normal sword, given that the blade has no weight . The same is likely true of the Ancient Sword, and Training Stick, (both of which specifically use Lightsaber combat techniques), even though they do have blades with weight. IF you notice, in the movies, lightsabers typically used Kenjutsu/Kendo, as the main basis for their techniques, rather than western European style fencing techniques. It's akin to the difference between wielding a European long sword and wielding a Katana . Swords that use Melee are the "long swords". Lightsabers, Ancient Swords, and Training Sticks are the Katanas.

19 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

The reason for the differences is a matter of how the weapons are balanced . A Lightsaber, in particular, has a very different balance than a normal sword, given that the blade has no weight . The same is likely true of the Ancient Sword, and Training Stick, (both of which specifically use Lightsaber combat techniques), even though they do have blades with weight. IF you notice, in the movies, lightsabers typically used Kenjutsu/Kendo, as the main basis for their techniques, rather than western European style fencing techniques. It's akin to the difference between wielding a European long sword and wielding a Katana . Swords that use Melee are the "long swords". Lightsabers, Ancient Swords, and Training Sticks are the Katanas.

I get that and have trained in both those sword arts. However the game uses these skills in broad strokes. Melee is very broad in terms of techniques that are even more varied then the differences between longsword and katana. Numerous skills do this. Melee skill represents an area of training with sometimes vastly different stances, positions and weapon technique. We can say the same for Lightsaber no problem, includes ancient swords, training sticks, various lightsabers.

The real crux is Melee sword wielders and classic lightsaber are not so different in the way the system is using these skills.

I do not buy wielding ancient swords would be so much different than Vibroblades in terms of balance and weight. Also ancient swords are heavier than Vibroblades, but perhaps not as light as a lightsaber. However I dont think Lighsabers arent without weight as they behave in the movies as if they were swords. So I think they are actually heavier than one might expect this is evidenced in the canon.

2 minutes ago, Buddha Fett said:

I get that and have trained in both those sword arts. However the game uses these skills in broad strokes. Melee is very broad in terms of techniques that are even more varied then the differences between longsword and katana. Numerous skills do this. Melee skill represents an area of training with sometimes vastly different stances, positions and weapon technique. We can say the same for Lightsaber no problem, includes ancient swords, training sticks, various lightsabers.

The real crux is Melee sword wielders and classic lightsaber are not so different in the way the system is using these skills.

I do not buy wielding ancient swords would be so much different than Vibroblades in terms of balance and weight. Also ancient swords are heavier than Vibroblades, but perhaps not as light as a lightsaber. However I dont think Lighsabers arent without weight as they behave in the movies as if they were swords. So I think they are actually heavier than one might expect this is evidenced in the canon.

Yes, they are different. That's the point. This is also why every iteration of the SW RPG , dating all the way back to the WEG D6 game had lightsabers use a separate skill from other melee weapons. The Ancient Sword and Training Stick, use the lightsaber skill because the former was specifically the precursor to lightsabers and the latter is specifically designed for use in lightsaber training . LIghtsabers and specifically related weapons are not "ordinary" melee weapons. They do require very specific skill sets not used with other melee weapons.

6 minutes ago, Buddha Fett said:

I get that and have trained in both those sword arts. However the game uses these skills in broad strokes.

It's likely worth mentioning that this game in particular paints broad strokes with many skills and it's an exercise in frustration to try to inject the crunch desired without changing the pacing and tone of the game. Surely we can all agree that firing a bow and throwing a grenade are quite different skills, yet they are both Ranged (Light) - just one example of many. Perhaps taking the skill analysis to this level of granularity is counterproductive?

1 hour ago, themensch said:

It's likely worth mentioning that this game in particular paints broad strokes with many skills and it's an exercise in frustration to try to inject the crunch desired without changing the pacing and tone of the game. Surely we can all agree that firing a bow and throwing a grenade are quite different skills, yet they are both Ranged (Light) - just one example of many. Perhaps taking the skill analysis to this level of granularity is counterproductive?

I agree, and I also feel that there should be no lightsaber skill. It's all just melee. If knives and spears, and giant mauls are all melee, so are lightsabers.

All of the arguments for a seperate skill usually boil down to "But mah litesaberes is teh specials!!" (purposeful snarkiness). Or "but that's the way they've always done it in the game".

3 hours ago, Ahrimon said:

I agree, and I also feel that there should be no lightsaber skill. It's all just melee. If knives and spears, and giant mauls are all melee, so are lightsabers.

Agreed. Melee counts for everything from knives to staves to whips, so it makes little sense to single out lightsabers.

What is different about a lightsaber is the crystal, the Force, and the connection the user can feel with the blade. This might set it apart, and IMHO that would have been reflected in mechanics that let the user utilize their FR rating somehow (eg: committing a FR die to Melee with a lightsaber adds a boost die, or grants an upgrade, or adds a quality...etc). That would keep the flavour without the artificial skill split.

19 minutes ago, whafrog said:

This might set it apart, and IMHO that would have been reflected in mechanics that let the user utilize their FR rating somehow (eg: committing a FR die to Melee with a lightsaber adds a boost die, or grants an upgrade, or adds a quality...etc). That would keep the flavour without the artificial skill split.

The lightsaber form "Technique" Force talents could still be this differentiation. Just use lightsabers with the Melee skill(s) and allow the Force users to sub in Willpower and the like for their characteristic.

There was some more information on Lighsaber combat in a Rebels episode that helped differentiate Lightsabers from regular melee weapons. Apparently the magnetic containment that creates the blade is actually attracted to other lightsaber blades and when they cross they "stick" a bit. Plus they are quite unbalanced with the entire weight of the weapon being in the handle. Having some training with medieval swords I can safely say those two qualities would definitely require some different training and techniques to use effectively. This doesn't make an argument as to why an Ancient Sword would use the Lightsaber Skill but it an argument for Melee and Lightsaber to be different skills. Regardless in the FFGSW system it's a different skill and the reason is to represent the weapon's special status in the lore of the Star Wars setting and is one of the tools to help balance glowstick users and muggles. As for the Ancient Sword it's essentially a tool to keep from forcing glowstick users from having to purchase melee skill and Lightsaber Skill just to be effective until they earn their saber and for muggles to not co-op a Jedi PC's iconic weapon.

The takeaway is that of all the versions of Star Wars RPGs this one has the best balance between Jedi and non-Jedi PCs, so unless you have a compelling reason to mess with that balance it's better to just accept that some things aren't going to make perfect sense and play the RAW as is.

Because FFG wanted a cheap weapon that wasn’t completely outlawed. If you don’t like the reason then remove it, your Lightsaber using characters will just need to be more careful.

Removing the Lightsaber skill is a bad idea, there are a lot of cheap talents that apply to Melee Weapons but not Lightsaber, a Marauder would become one of the best Lightsaber Damage dealers in the entire system.

It also allows a starting character not to sink points into melee as they can’t start with a lightsaber

15 hours ago, Ahrimon said:

I agree, and I also feel that there should be no lightsaber skill. It's all just melee. If knives and spears, and giant mauls are all melee, so are lightsabers.

All of the arguments for a seperate skill usually boil down to "But mah litesaberes is teh specials!!" (purposeful snarkiness). Or "but that's the way they've always done it in the game".

Hm, I disagree. A Lightsaber blade has no mass. A sword blade has plenty. Swinging one is different entirely from another, and while flying a swoop bike and piloting a sailboat both fall under Piloting (Planetary) I feel the risk of dismemberment is considerably less than the difference between a sword and a lightsaber, thus justifying a separate skill. However, you do you! It's a fair enough argument to put it under melee at your table if you wish.

1 hour ago, themensch said:

A Lightsaber blade has no mass.

You haven't watched Rebels then...

51 minutes ago, whafrog said:

You haven't watched Rebels then...

Every episode! Yet I am not remembering the detail to which you refer.

When Sabine is learning to use the dark saber, it's heavier than she expects. It has inertia beyond what the handle could provide. It's magnetically drawn to other blades, which is why they stick...if it had no mass they'd just pass through each other (never mind be an infinitely long ray).

Besides, pseudo-scientifically... ... it's not a "laser sword", that's just a colloquialism. It's a hot plasma contained in an electro-magnetic energy field, and plasma is just another state of matter...

That one episode casually answered a lot of questions...