I've been thinking about incorporating some of the Warhammer Fantasy gods as Imperial saints for my campaign. (I picked up the Warhamer Fantasy Tome of Salvation on sale at my local game store.) I've already introduced the cult of St Shallya, a radical sect that preaches the "questionable virtues" of mercy and compassion. I've got ideas around a cult Saint Morr, a patron of undertakers and soothsayers and the warrior cult of St. Myrmidia. Looking at cult of Ulrich, I can't help but see him as a Space Wolf...

Which leads me to wonder if it makes sense to have a Space Marine who somehow got himself declared an Imperial saint. What do folks think?

Which leads me to wonder if it makes sense to have a Space Marine who somehow got himself declared an Imperial saint. What do folks think?

A local saint wouldn't be a problem - hell, Ciaphas Cain is considered a saint by some Tallarns.

When it comes to wider recognition... good question. I don't think the Ecclesiarchy would like it, considering how independent space marines in general and Space Wolves in particular tend to be. They'd likely argue that as a Space Marine, Ulrich already was an "angel" of the Emperor, so sainthood would be redundant.

However, there certainly are quite a few planets venerating certain chapters in a saint-like way. The feral recruitment worlds of course, but doubtlessly, worlds saved by Marines won't remain untouched by that either.

LuciusT said:

I like this idea . Considering that the Ecclesiarchy has a habit of approving and incorporating local Saints to the greater Imperial pantheon, provided that they don´t deviate too far from established creed. The official recognition might take some time to get through the Ministrorum bureaucracy but that does not stop the Saint from being venerated locally ( planet, sub-sector or sector level ).

The primarchs are a good precedent. Not quite sure if the the Imperial Creed has officially granted them sainthood but they certainly are venerated by the general populace. Pilgrims visit the stasis tomb of Guilliman on Macgragge by the thousands.

So let us say that a Space Wolf suffered some tragedy ( company destroyed etc. ) and embarked on the path of a Lone Wolf ( lone warrior seeking to restore his honor ). He wanders through the stars stalking the enemies of the Emperor. He naturally meets many people during his wanderings and slowly a rumour starts to spread of a lonely defender of Humanity. The story starts to live a life of its own and the warriors fame grows. He finally meets a suitably heroic end on some primitive planet and the locals build a shrine to their saviour. The Cult of Ulric celebrates the memory of Saint Ulric during each Winter Solstice to this day .

Local Veneration = yes
Official Saint = No

1) I do not think that the Spacewolves would actually encourage something like this
2) I do not think that the Ecclesiarchy would encourge a Spacewolf Saint (for politcal reasons at last)
3) Without anyone encouraging it, I do not think this "faith" would go farther the a sw recruiting planet


I do not know of Saint Ulrich, but I am quiet sure that he can be depicted as a human. After all, he is a human saint in the original version, isn´t he?

Gregorius21778 said:

No, he's a god... specifically the god of war, winter and wolves.

LuciusT said:

Okay, now I get your "Space Wolf Link".

But anyway, "free yourself from it" . You could make him a saint of a norselike planet or something similiar to the Valahan (yes, I know, "wrong sector"). Resist the lure and pull of the marine fandom. "Be strong in your ignorance!"

I'm afraid I have to agree with Gregorius on this one. While I love the concept, and I can certainly see the same link you saw, I just don't see the SW's or the Ecclesiarchy being overly excited about the concept.

As Gregorius says, maybe a human from a Viking/Norse-type world. And maybe even one who did something awesome enough for the SW's that they are willing to revere him along with own great heroes ... maybe.

I agree with both points... the Space Wolfs would be, at best amused and maybe a little disgusted at the idea. Certainly they wouldn't consider Ulrich to be a saint. Likewise, I doubt the Ecclesiarchy would be thrilled at the idea of a giant, brawling, heretical abhuman being set up as an ideal to strive for. At the same time, I confess to being very enamored with the idea of venerating a Space Marine as a paragon. The Space Marines are, after all, part of the 40k mythology and I hate to ignore them entirely.

Maybe Ulrich isn't strictly a saint cult... perhaps something of a warrior-society, similar but different from the death-cults... a society that holds up "Saint" Ulrich as a paragon of warriors, an ideal for mere mortals to strive for but never truly achieve.

*sighingly writing LuciusT´s name into the book of the souls lost to the marine fandome*

Gregorius21778 said:

What can I say, I like Space Marines... preferably slow roasted, with rich red sauce and served with a nice fungus beer. (WAAAAGH!)

LuciusT said:

Psst...A minor theological point. The Emperor created the Primarchs. The Primarchs are His sons and carry His genetic template. The Astartes carry the Primarchs Geneseed. See where I am going with this?

Yes, The Ecclesiarchy has some problems with the Astartes regarging the status of the Emperor. But since every Astartes carries within himself a tiny portion of His divine legacy, the Ecclesiarchy can´t raise a fuss ( without eroding its own position ). This was pretty nicely explained in the old Index Astartes series. Thus the Ecclesiarchy and the Astartes obey a compromise where they leave each other alone. As a symbolic sign of peace and connection between the two, the Ecclesiarchy grants the Chaplains of the Astartes their Crozius Arcanums.

Aajav-Khan said:

Yes, also daemons are bad, orks are green, and tyranids are so named because they were first officially encountered on the planet Tryan (which they ate).

Aajav-Khan said:

And just how many average hivers do you think know this?

LuciusT said:

Actually, despite the fanboy-haters, the theologians, and the comedians, I kind of like this idea.

"No, seriously. Put the flamer down, Gregorius. I am NOT a heretic. I am not a HERETIC!"

The Hobo Hunter said:

The details? Very few... the broad idea? The overwhelming majority of them. The Primarchs (the loyal ones, at least) are generally considered to be the highest of Saints across the majority of the Imperium, on account of being the Emperor's sons, and the Astartes are the Emperor's Angels of Death...

The fact that a number of Chapters recruit from important Hive Worlds helps this perception; they have contact with the Marines for reasons other than battle, so the men and women of Necromunda are likely to know of the Imperial Fists who recruit from their world, for example.

*cough* emperor's sons are sensai as well though the Ecclarisy goes out of the way to kill them *cough*

Bring on the flamer gregarious at least if your'e an Illuminati

ThenDoctor said:

The sensai have been retconned out. The Primarchs are "re-branded" as the Emperor's "sons" since they were in part created from his genetics.

well i dont ban them, i like the concept i know they went out with the Star Child theory as well, but hey id at least like a good excuse for the Emperor to come back

I have this funny idea floating in my head: The old world is actually at the very center of the eye of terror. Impossible for any space ships to reach it cause of Morrslieb that maliciously destroys anything coming close to the old world planet. Here a battle takes place reflecting the rest of the universe. (As above is as below & as it is below so is it above) Only once did something land: Percieved by the planet as a twin tailed comet. Has no real bearing on my game; just for fun

Pallomides said:

welcome to the conspiracy theory of Warhammer Fantasy being a planet in 40k comprised of all the races, some believe its in warp storms, others believe its a planet monitored by the adeptus mechanicus waiting on the human faction to have the technological breakthrough that humanity once had to recover lost machines from the golden age

its been done sorry to rain on your parade

ThenDoctor said:

It's been done before because it is (or was, if you believe the GW retcon (though they say everything they've ever published is canon )) in the 40k galaxy behind warp storms. It was stated as such in "Slaves to Darkness" and "The Lost and the Damned". Hints of this are still in various current products, despite the GW "retcon", such as the appearance of Space Marines in Libra Chaotica, which was an art book set from the point of view of a person in the Warhammer setting.