6 minutes ago, LordBlades said:I agree. However, if x points is the number where a ship peaks, enough for it to reach optimal loadout and it still doesn't measure to x points of something else, then that is a design problem.
It's not necessarily a design problem. It could be a matter of a bad matchup.
10 minutes ago, heychadwick said:You know, even with a 2.0 you won't get the game back to how it was for the early waves. These other ships just have more options and dials that will never get the game back to how it was. You can't un-make the Skurrg. It will still have all those options that it does to the point that it will still make other ships not as powerful. The only thing you can do is price them so they are just too expensive to use.
... Why can't you unmake the Scurgg? I mean, not completely ... it would be silly to just ignore the model. But you can easily design better around the model. It's hard to overstate how easily.
For example, regarding your question about the Auzituck: What if the ship always took damage cards face up? That's a reason that maybe you might forgo the 180-degree arc, right? (Also, this ignores that a redesigned Auzituck doesn't even have to have a 180-degree arc.)
Edited by Jeff WilderJust now, Jeff Wilder said:... Why can't you unmake the Scurgg? I mean, not completely ... it would be silly to just ignore the model. But you can easily design better around the model. It's hard to overstate how easily.
OK....they could utterly gut it and start again. If they wanted to really rip ships apart and remake them with utterly different than they are now options....they could. I just don't think they could make it similar to it is now and make a difference.
-make the dial worse
-remove some of its actions, like barrel roll
-remove upgrade options like all tbise bombs and the turret
7 minutes ago, heychadwick said:You know, even with a 2.0 you won't get the game back to how it was for the early waves. These other ships just have more options and dials that will never get the game back to how it was. You can't un-make the Skurrg. It will still have all those options that it does to the point that it will still make other ships not as powerful. The only thing you can do is price them so they are just too expensive to use.
They could go the route of the Jumpmaster and remove options. If they price it out of Play they kill the game. Who's going to buy ships they can't use let alone produce ships they can't sell.
You're right, even a 2.0 reboot won't bring back the early game. As players we have three choices. Deal with it, quit or b###h.
3 minutes ago, heychadwick said:OK....they could utterly gut it and start again. If they wanted to really rip ships apart and remake them with utterly different than they are now options....they could. I just don't think they could make it similar to it is now and make a difference.
Enh. Frankly, I have vastly more confidence in FFG being able to competently design a 2.0 than I do in their ability to comprehensively fix everything that's broken.
Designing a 2.0 means building a better foundation -- keywords, better math. Trying to fix what's already broken is a game of Whack-a-Mole.
2 hours ago, Jeff Wilder said:Enh. Frankly, I have vastly more confidence in FFG being able to competently design a 2.0 than I do in their ability to comprehensively fix everything that's broken.
Designing a 2.0 means building a better foundation -- keywords, better math. Trying to fix what's already broken is a game of Whack-a-Mole.
I could try and think, agree with you or not, but I’m guessing you’re not only correct, but the designers have no idea how to even begin. The last few “fixes” have been knee-jerk at best; seems they simply lower the cost a bit and throw on another ships unique ability and see if the pasta sticks to the wall or not....as long as they make money selling units, why bother thinking much at all?
2 hours ago, heychadwick said:OK....they could utterly gut it and start again. If they wanted to really rip ships apart and remake them with utterly different than they are now options....they could. I just don't think they could make it similar to it is now and make a difference.
-make the dial worse
-remove some of its actions, like barrel roll
-remove upgrade options like all tbise bombs and the turret
Cost....it could all be fixed by point cost. Jack the OPs up a bunch. Even the Ghost couldn’t be what it is if it were flown alone....TIE/LN swarm alone would block and eat it.
8 minutes ago, clanofwolves said:I could try and think, agree with you or not, but I’m guessing you’re not only correct, but the designers have no idea how to even begin...
...welp, can't say I didn't warn you
If....
1. You get no updated cards without buying new miniatures
2. You run amuck with a never ending series of releases, even if the releases delve into esoteric and fringe ships that aren't found anywhere but in some novel or video game that isn't even considered lore anymore
then...
Don't expect the game to be balanced much or even look like Star Wars much anymore after 5 years and on.
I love X-Wing for its core base rules, and ships from the movies. For casual games, its great. But the hide is taken out of the collectors who must have every release and serious gamers. I suppose why not? Those are the people who are going to buy things no matter what. I have no interest in becoming that kind of fan.
Said before but this game is not meant for anything but casual play. Good luck if you like tournaments, because you're going to keep spending a lot of money on the treadmill.
Yes, love it @FTS Gecko !
first off the designers need to determine what they want the game to be; what is it at it’s core? They simply add new design space ideas with little to no thought about what the game is, and how the new space effects the game as it stands pre-Wave whatever is reactionary and not design at all. Without a plan, a strategy, a goal, how the **** can you design a integral new component?!? As a designer, I’m baffled at their interviews when I listen to them. It’s maddening!
So that’s step one.
....should I go on?
Edited by clanofwolves3 hours ago, ficklegreendice said:Similarly, you can also design mechanics for iconic ships without being lazy as **** (even ffg proved this by first designing turrets and then mobile arcs)
Just because you got a better idea later doesn't mean the first idea was just because you were lazy.
3 hours ago, LordBlades said:I agree. However, if x points is the number where a ship peaks, enough for it to reach optimal loadout and it still doesn't measure to x points of something else, then that is a design problem.
This ignores synergy. A + B + C = D for one ship, but for a different ship A + B + C = 1.5D thanks to the fact that those things work together better.
3 hours ago, heychadwick said:I mean, why go for a ship with normal firing arc when you can have a Wookie Gunboat that fires in 180 arc?
Well, because the Wookiee should have some disadvantages that counterbalance it's advantages.
People complain about the Lambda being a cow. If it zipped around like a TIE Fighter it would be broken.
It is only a Palp carrier?? Dang straight. . .and that's all it should be.
3 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:People complain about the Lambda being a cow. If it zipped around like a TIE Fighter it would be broken.
Yeah, she doesn’t need to have a TIE fighter dial, but she should have a dial equal to other factions large based ships....she got a bit ripped. And the Upsilon isn’t “better” enough to purchase one. This coming from a guy that loves Lambdas. ?
14 hours ago, Ccwebb said:X does not have 2 extra slots, it’s 1 and 1. A boosts with -1 red OR a barrel roll.
There are only 2 maybe 3 astromechs worthy of play. Every illicit is highly usable.
The talon roll is very nice addition, but one can argue the 1 hard turn is equal or better. (There is an ept for hard 1, not talon roll)
X wing is not an arc dodger with these new additions. Arc dodgers get to do barrels roll AND boost in the same round with some sort of token stack. It finally becomes a snub fighter, like it was supposed to be.
think you missed the new title dude
4 hours ago, clanofwolves said:Yes, love it @FTS Gecko !
first off the designers need to determine what they want the game to be; what is it at it’s core? They simply add new design space ideas with little to no thought about what the game is, and how the new space effects the game as it stands pre-Wave whatever is reactionary and not design at all. Without a plan, a strategy, a goal, how the **** can you design a integral new component?!? As a designer, I’m baffled at their interviews when I listen to them. It’s maddening!
So that’s step one.
....should I go on?
Doesn’t matter if you go on or not, you’ll just create the same thread 3-4 days from now, unless the reaper article drops. I’m sure you’ll have to complain about how that ship will “kill the lambda”.
11 hours ago, FlyingAnchors said:Doesn’t matter if you go on or not, you’ll just create the same thread 3-4 days from now, unless the reaper article drops. I’m sure you’ll have to complain about how that ship will “kill the lambda”.
Nothing shall kill the Lambda, she’s my girl, love ‘em wart (dial) and all. ?
Yeah, if the Reaper is another “fix” release it’ll be lauded as new hotness or attacked as a dud or not enough via post blather to be sure. But there’s always a bright side: if anything, FFG creates vibrant and active talking and debate points even when —especially when— they issue game additions that are slow-release “reactionary fixes” or “blind new design space” additions...there’s that positive spin.
But hey, a pint or two in, a couple of mates, and the agreed too exclusion of top ten ships in the current meta rankings makes everyone have a fun evening!
the lambda has (will have) the exact same issue as the U
the small base two crew equivalent is better due to an epic action, but the large base ship has systems
unlike the U, though, the lambda actually has good crew with which to use advanced sensors (fleet/hux).
they're nowhere near the same level as palpatine, of course, but they do exist
On 4/27/2018 at 8:02 PM, heychadwick said:You know, even with a 2.0 you won't get the game back to how it was for the early waves. These other ships just have more options and dials that will never get the game back to how it was. You can't un-make the Skurrg. It will still have all those options that it does to the point that it will still make other ships not as powerful. The only thing you can do is price them so they are just too expensive to use.
Exactly. The generic Scurrg has basically the same stats, and is available in the same numbers, as the Lambda shuttle. All, right, the latter has a few more slots, but they really aren't comparable.
22 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:This ignores synergy. A + B + C = D for one ship, but for a different ship A + B + C = 1.5D thanks to the fact that those things work together better.
Exactly. And also that the option of multiple stacked upgrades tend to matter more. Stealth Device is a so-so upgrade, but stealth device when you already had autothrusters and were already agility 3 to start with is the core of what made the TIE interceptor awesome before bombs & mines alive-alive-oh.
Most of the top-end ships tend to be the ones with huge upgrade bars. Which makes sense, I guess. A ship which is at or above tournament bleeding-edge with no upgrades of any kind (or just free auto-includes) would be obviously broken,and even cursory playtesting would ask "are we happy with this thing having 4 attack dice?" (or whatever). The problem children which slip through are the ones where multiple options stack.
On 4/27/2018 at 1:17 PM, Jeff Wilder said:Enh. Frankly, I have vastly more confidence in FFG being able to competently design a 2.0 than I do in their ability to comprehensively fix everything that's broken.
Designing a 2.0 means building a better foundation -- keywords, better math. Trying to fix what's already broken is a game of Whack-a-Mole.
I'm not saying that a 2.0 can't be done to make the game better and well balanced. What I'm saying is that even a 2.0 won't get X-wing back to how it was in Waves 1-4. That's where there wasn't a lot of re-positioning or turrets. If you picked a bad dial pick, you just don't get a shot. That sense of what ClanoWolves was talking about.
3 hours ago, heychadwick said:I'm not saying that a 2.0 can't be done to make the game better and well balanced. What I'm saying is that even a 2.0 won't get X-wing back to how it was in Waves 1-4. That's where there wasn't a lot of re-positioning or turrets. If you picked a bad dial pick, you just don't get a shot. That sense of what ClanoWolves was talking about.
All the way back? No, I agree.
But there are things that can be done to right the most serious imbalances. Just spit-balling, but you could alternate activations, for instance. You could use the old Battletech mechanic of the "torso twist." You could have both movement dials and action dials. You could rework turrets to always be more like mobile-arcs. And so on.
2.0, done well, could go a long way toward reclaiming X-Wing as a "maneuvers most important" game.
22 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:Exactly. The generic Scurrg has basically the same stats, and is available in the same numbers, as the Lambda shuttle. All, right, the latter has a few more slots, but they really aren't comparable.
I don't understand what the disconnect is, here.
In X-Wing 2.0, there is no reason that the Scurgg's current overabundance of upgrade slots, its dial, or even its stat-line would be the same, in a vacuum or compared to the Lambda.
There's virtually no reason to believe there will ever be an X-Wing 2.0.
46 minutes ago, SOTL said:There's virtually no reason to believe there will ever be an X-Wing 2.0.
I guess aside from the fact that every extremely popular miniatures game ever got a 2.0, you're right.
24 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:I guess aside from the fact that every extremely popular miniatures game ever got a 2.0, you're right.
And that virtually no 'living' FFG game ever has.
Edited by SOTL1 hour ago, SOTL said:There's virtually no reason to believe there will ever be an X-Wing 2.0.
x-wing is the 2nd star wars space battles miniature game in the last decade. there will be a third.
when that happens and who holds the license is anyones guess, but this game wont last forever. i agree its unlikely that FFG will release new cards and rules for our existing collections, but whether official or unoficial there will be an x-wing 2.0 eventually
43 minutes ago, SOTL said:And that virtually no 'living' FFG game ever has.
Game of Thrones, would be shocked if Call of Cthulu isn't 2nd edition at some point, Descent which not technically classified as a 'living' game shares many of the same features in terms of product structure and releases. Not to mention they're on 4th edition of Twilight Imperium...
I can get and somewhat agree with the idea that we're not going to get a 2nd ed right now (though I think a 1.1 or 1.5 is more likely even if a long shot). But the idea that, short of them losing the license, there will definitely never ever be a 2nd ed just seem ludicrous