11 hours ago, Seabook said:

Yep, T-65 and Kihraxz are different ships, from different factions, they will never fly the same or to be balanced.

That's a bug though, not a feature.

The very essence of a point system is that, at least in theory, x points of something should be roughly as good as x points of something else.

14 hours ago, Vontoothskie said:

yeah we now have an arc dodging x-wing we did not need.

I do not like upgrade spam, so the idea that many x-wings will now have 6 upgrades is annoying.

and it really leaves the khiraxz, E-wing, etc out in the cold by becoming better at their roles while costing less.

Actually, Khiraxz versus X-wing is a pretty interesting fight.

The Renegade Refit gives the Rebels something they've never had before - a heavy swarm ship. Heavy Swarms are always something that's been nosing around the outside of the game - those who play them tend to like them to the point of meme-level pavlovian obsession*.

A Heavy swarmer is a ship which has a points cost of 20 or less - letting you field 5 - and a 3 dice primary or non-discarding secondary weapon attack. Essentially, it's a force of generics with sufficient weight of metal to actually take on the big ships and aces and give them a run for their money (indeed, the fear of the heavy swarm existing back in wave 1 is the reason the Rookie Pilot was originally 21 points not 20).

The T-65 X-wing is the newest and I think probably the best Heavy Swarmer but it has its limitations, and most of the others can give it a fair run for its money. Compare and contrast it to the other options:

• Rookie Pilot - Renegade Refit, Flight Assist Astromech, Integrated Astromech, Servomotor S-Foils
  • Primary weapon attack - means there's a detectable increase in firepower at range 1 and drop at range 3
  • Has multiple end-around movement options with a Speed 4 Koiogran and Speed 3 Talon Rolls
  • 3 Hull, 2 Shield Tokens and Integrated Astromech gives it an effective '6 hit points'
  • Agility 2- enough to reduce incoming damage but rarely enough to dodge a shot entirely.
  • Has Barrel Roll as an action. Gains a free boost or barrel roll action if it doesn't have a shot after manoeuvring.
  • Can Boost instead of barrel roll, but at a cost of firepower
  • Pretty god-awful green dial unless closing the S-foils, and not great even then, but does have the speed 1 straight that few heavy swarmers have. Combined with Barrel Roll that makes it good at a cautious 'slow roll' in to the target.

Versus the competition

• Zealous Recruit - No Upgrades
  • Yeah, this one's pretty guff. The Protectorate Starfighter's PS1 version doesn't exactly shine.
  • It's the only heavy swarmer which gets no upgrades at all. And as you might imagine, it sucks as a result
  • PS1 is in theory nice because you know you'll always be able to block - which is a good response to auzitucks, crackswarms, gunboats, etc. In a heavy swarm-off, though, it means the X-wings shoot first, five times . That's probably going to be one, maybe even two kills before you shoot in a bad head-on pass.
  • Agility 3 is nice, but 2 less hit points means in a close-range brawl with lots of unmodified shots and defences, it's going to come off worst.
  • Also has a primary weapon.
  • Has both boost and barrel roll but lacks the action economy to use them effectively because you give up your focus token to do so.
  • Its base dial is in theory better (particularly speed 2 turns being green), but aside from the speed 1 turn and speed 5 straight it doesn't really have any moves the X-wing doesn't and it gives up speed 1 straights and banks, so it all works out in the wash.
  • Green turns are nice on an ace with Push The Limit but non-elite generics shouldn't have stress tokens that often so it becomes less of an advantage.
• Cartel Marauder - Vaksai, XX-23 S-Thread Tracers, Contraband Cybernetics or Black Market Slicer Tools, Guidance Chips, Munitions Failsafe
  • Look! I have even more upgrade cards on each of my five ships than you do!
  • This is a pretty decent match for the X-wing. The pre-Vaksai Cartel Marauder was a pretty close match for an unequipped X-wing (i.e. they both sucked) but at 20 points, the Vaksai goes a different route to the Renegade X-wing; whilst the X-wing adds durability and the ability to reposition, the Vaksai adds massive action efficiency; it can't turn around as fast, but it's pretty easy for the bulk of your squad to have target lock and/or focus every turn, making it much shootier than the X-wing.
  • PS2 is identical to the Rookie Pilot.
  • Agility 2 is identical to the rookie pilot. It's a fraction more fragile with 4 hull and 1 shield token giving it 5 hit points instead of 6
  • Also has a primary weapon. However, the ability for the first ship attacking each turn to fire a thread tracer instead, combined with guidance chips (and failsafe if you somehow miss) lets you parley a focus on one ship into a target lock on everyone. Four target lock/focused attacks are brutal, especially since you can fire the thread tracer with the ship with a range 3 shot (no range bonus from range 3!) and let the ships in range 1 focus/reroll 4-dice primaries.
  • It is the only heavy swarmer with no repositioning action. As noted above in the Zealous Recruit, you have to be sparing with boosting or barrel rolling a swarmer because a bad position with a focus token is often at least as good as a good spot without one, but the inability to barrel roll does make the Khiraxz the worst blocker of the heavy swarmers. Which is admittedly a relative term, and not the most critical ability because blocking isn't as game-winning as it was (Except against Auzitucks. Because [ censored ] reinforce tokens in the [ censored ])
  • Its dial is about equivalent. Swapping a speed 3 turn for a speed 1 turn is nice in a knife fight. It lacks speed 1 straights, but still has speed 1 banks, so it's not like its minimum speed is insane, and it has multiple turn-about moves. Admittedly they're both Koiogran turns, but the speed 5 Koiogran is nice because it's very good at clearing other ships after a close-range pass.
• Cartel Spacer - "Heavy Scyk", Mangler Cannon
  • Boom. Headshot...
  • This is...not a ship I'd take a heavy swarm by itself. But it complements the Cartel Marauder so well (same PS and practically identical dial), that scum (up until the Partisans come out) Scum probably have the best heavy swarm - mix Scyks and Khiraxz to taste, with the former in the back rank and the latter in the front. It's a great support ship for its cost provided the enemy is primarily shooting at someone else, but it doesn't fold if asked to do some work on its own.
  • PS2 is identical to the Rookie Pilot - and, more importantly, the Cartel Marauder
  • Agility 3 with 3 hull and 1 shield token. Like the Zealous Recruit, it's detectably more fragile, especially at close range. Unlike the Zealous Recruit, this doesn't really matter because it's not supposed to be at close range; pegging mangler shots at people from range 3, it gets 4 green dice against primary weapons, making it one of the hardest heavy swarmers to hit.
  • The Mangler Cannon. The best gun money can buy**. But it's actually not all that devastating at range 1 - getting 3 dice to the 4 dice of most other heavy swarmers. By comparison, 3 dice with no range bonus and a 'free critical' at range 3 is lethal - you suffer no problems with opponents getting better defences at range 3 (okay, autothrusters, fair enough) and it's a lot easier to concentrate all 5 arcs of fire on the same target and a lot harder to dodge your arcs when your opponent is mid range 3 and the outer edge of your arc of fire is a couple of range bands away. Agility 0 big ships hate these things.
  • Has barrel roll - meaning if it does end up close it can play blocker for the Khiraxz.
  • Everything said about the Khiraxz' dial applies here - including the multiple koiogran turns. Interestingly, this and the khiraxz are the only ships to have neither a speed 1 straight nor a speed 5 straight.
  • It's also surprisingly good value. Along with the TIE Striker, it's able to make a heavy swarm straight out of the plastic, with all three cards listed above being in the M-3A Scyk expansion pack.
• Scarif Defender - Adaptive Ailerons, Lightweight Frame
  • And today, I'm going thiiiiis way!
  • My personal favourite ship in the game. It's a joy to fly and actually very effective en masse. Much like the flight assist X-wing, it's not only got repositioning but repositioning which doesn't cost you your action to use, which is a critical difference on a low PS generic.
  • PS3 is the best of any heavy swarmer. It does actually matter in 'normal' games here and there - being just good enough that Predator only rerolls 1 die instead of 2, getting simultaneous PS with elite Wookies, and getting the PS drop on Nu Squadron gunboats. In a heavy swarm fight, it does unto the Rookies what the Rookies do unto their PS1 rivals - namely blow one ship to bits fairly reliably before they get to shoot.
  • Agility 2 with Lightweight Frame and 4 hull - within range 2, it's functionally identical to the Zealous Recruit or Heavy Scyk - which means, detectably more fragile than the X-wing. You will need to outfly them at medium range to win.
  • Primary weapons, again. Combined with the way Lightweight Frame works, you really don't want to be at range 3 in a striker - your opponent does get their range defence bonus and you don't .
  • Barrel Roll and Adaptive Ailerons. Neither Adaptive Ailerons nor Flight Assist Astromech are strictly speaking 'better', but Flight Assist is better for either strategic movement (moving around when no shots are being exchanged) or fleeing from combat - the one thing it doesn't make the X-wing into is an 'arc dodger' because once both sides have shots it gives a satisfied beep, shuts down and goes back to playing minecraft on the back seat. By comparison, stringing together banks, segnors loops and koiogran turns in close quarters is the TIE striker's party piece, and is very good for parking it in a spot where its opponent doesn't have a shot back.
  • Its dial is very good at turning at medium-high speeds. It suffers from the highest minimum speed of any small ship in the game (effective speed 3 if not stressed!) and its dial collapses something rotten if it becomes stressed, but as long as you fly nailed to the white bits, it can dance as well as any 35+ point silencer or interceptor ace.
  • As with the Scyk, everything you need for a ship is right there in one box.
  • The wings move! It looks awesome!
• Alpha Squadron Pilot - Autothrusters
  • Meep! Meep!
  • The first heavy swarmer ever. And the most fragile, by some margin. I think this one would really struggle against the new X-wing.
  • PS1 makes it a good blocker, but as noted blocking isn't the be all and end all. PS against most opponents isn't too big a deal, because it's normally just "less than you" whatever "you" happens to be, but versus a heavy swarm of X-wings, it's going to be bloody.
  • Agility 3 with Autothrusters but only 3 hit points. It's surprising how hard these things can be to hit, but one someone connects they'll go pop like academy pilots half their price. 4 green dice, a focus token and autothrusters is as close to bloody untouchable as anything you can field 5 of has a right to expect, though - it's just that at range 2 (or, god forbid, 1) you're essentially held together by balsa wood, twine and the will of the force. They do have one advantage in that autothrusters do trigger against turrets as well - it only has to trigger once to make them as tough as a heavy scyk or striker, and primary weapon turrets will have a hard time hitting them out of arc, even at range 2.
  • The problem with being untouchable at range 3 is that so is the enemy. 5 primary weapons will waste a fair amount of damage on bonus dice.
  • Ps1 with both boost and barrel roll does make it a good blocker, I guess.
  • The dial is okay. The lack of speed 1 banks and straights hurt, but it's got all three speed options for turns.
• Scimitar Squadron Pilot - Unguided Rockets, Lightweight Frame
  • For the love of god, die already!
  • The slowest, fattest, tankiest heavy swarmer. The X-wing technically matches its damage capacity, but not its effective agility. However, it does lose a lot of its lustre if forced to pull hard manoeuvres (i.e. any ) and it really doesn't like critical damage or stress. From a certain point of view, at range 2, it has the effective stats of a TIE Defender or TIE Silencer, but turning up in packs of 5. That point of view does require you to squint a lot, though....
  • PS2 matches the Rookie
  • Agility 2 with lightweight frame and 6 hull makes it the only ship arguably tougher than the Rookie Pilot - at medium range, anyway.
  • The TIE Bomber has an irritatingly specific ideal engagement range - at range 3 lightweight frame gives you no benefit, whilst at range 1 unguided rockets give you no benefit over primary weapons. The rockets do at least ignore range combat bonus, so better to be too far away than too close.
  • It has barrel roll, like the S-foils open X-wing, and can tolerate getting kicked quite a bit so is not a bad choice for a blocker. In theory, because unguided rockets are attack [focus], using your action to barrel roll should cripple your attack (focused 3-dice attack to unfocused 2-dice attack). In practice, you're normally barrel rolling because you expect to be at range 1, so it's not bad as you get 3 dice anyway. However, like the scyk, you have a detectable lack of punch up close.
  • It has the single worst dial of any heavy swarmer. Only 1 koiogran turn (admittedly the nice fast speed 5 one), and only one practical turn at speed 3 to boot. To add insult to injury, whilst it has speed 1 banks, its green banks are at speed 2, and if stressed you desperately need to clear off that stress.

* @FTS Gecko - go, on, we all know the words: FIVE....CARTEL....

** Provided said money caps out at 20 points per ship and doesn't want one-shot crud, anyway.

10 hours ago, ficklegreendice said:

Actually, khirax similarity with Xwing is completely engineered by fluff and not at all reflected in game. The khirax dial has more in common with a TIE than an X (no 1 foward, but has 1 turns and two k-turns)

Also, the vaksai has

1.) More modifcations (better access to EU + thrusters because they don't cost 6 points,can take pulsed Rey while the X can't)

****, the x is only ever using servos + integrated 10 times out of 10, unless the unspoiled thruster in Saw's is ridiculous

2.) Illicit upgrade, which is still very strong (stims)

3.) Missiles, especially Poons, while the fixed X has zero ordnance at all

Sure you could keep drawing non-existent parralels, but they're not even remotely similar ships anymore. Never were really, other than they both were never used upon release. One also isn't confirmed "better" than the other because Poons are actually THAT good

And really, if the saw's is the expac that signals power creep and removal of player agency, I have no idea where you were looking before the jm5k or nym got nerfed

Seriously, this is perhaps the single worst expac to hold up as power creep and the removal of player skill when it's bringing moderately powered arc-locked ships to the game. It's literally the exact opposite of those complaints

always with the strawman bs. jeez.

no one said it was the worst. I said it contributed problems and was a missed opportunity.

also ive played 5 khiraxz as my primary list for 2+ years, and i played them because i liked x-wings before that but could fit 5 in a list. the literal information written on the cards is virtually the same, with some slight flavor differences, up until guns for hire rewired things. same actions. same stats. similar dial. **** the preview even billed the khiraxz as the scum X-wing ffs. anyway ussually when ficklegreendice comes in and says weird stuff in a thread is when i leave it, so im out

15 hours ago, Vontoothskie said:

so in Warhammer do characters weilding warhammers get massive bonuses to the point of being OP? there is no logic there

i agree the X-wing needed a buff, but i do not think it need to switch roles in game from jouster to arc dodger.

and as for 2 squads of 100 points being fairly equal... that is literally the stated purpose of squad points in the game. i do agree that it will never be exact, but the goal is to get it as close as is practical to achieve.

i brought up the khiraxz because it is supposed to mirror the X-wing within the design space... its supposed to fill the same role. this makes comparing them easy and makes power creep obvious in ways that other more eclectic ships cant really be compared.

3/2/3/2 and 3/2/4/1 are virtually the same, with the shield being slightly more valuable.

action bars were the same, now the X has 2 extra actions.

X pilots have higher ps for the points

Astromech is more valuable than illicit. X wins again

regen potential with 2 shields and astro is good

new talon roll is HUGELY in favor of the X-wing

and pilots now cost less for x-wings vs khiraxz of equivalent P.S.

the x can equip 2 mods while the Krx can equip 3, titles are pretty equivalent value in price reduction though the x-wing gets better options to spend that on.

so im seeing 1 thing in favor of khiraxz(missile is better than torpedo currently) while theres half a dozen significant ways X-wings are better than khiraxz. and the 2 are meant to be equal. kinda lame

X does not have 2 extra slots, it’s 1 and 1. A boosts with -1 red OR a barrel roll.

There are only 2 maybe 3 astromechs worthy of play. Every illicit is highly usable.

The talon roll is very nice addition, but one can argue the 1 hard turn is equal or better. (There is an ept for hard 1, not talon roll)

X wing is not an arc dodger with these new additions. Arc dodgers get to do barrels roll AND boost in the same round with some sort of token stack. It finally becomes a snub fighter, like it was supposed to be.

4 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Actually, Khiraxz versus X-wing is a pretty interesting fight.

The Renegade Refit gives the Rebels something they've never had before - a heavy swarm ship. Heavy Swarms are always something that's been nosing around the outside of the game - those who play them tend to like them to the point of meme-level pavlovian obsession*.

A Heavy swarmer is a ship which has a points cost of 20 or less - letting you field 5 - and a 3 dice primary or non-discarding secondary weapon attack. Essentially, it's a force of generics with sufficient weight of metal to actually take on the big ships and aces and give them a run for their money (indeed, the fear of the heavy swarm existing back in wave 1 is the reason the Rookie Pilot was originally 21 points not 20).

The T-65 X-wing is the newest and I think probably the best Heavy Swarmer but it has its limitations, and most of the others can give it a fair run for its money. Compare and contrast it to the other options:

• Rookie Pilot - Renegade Refit, Flight Assist Astromech, Integrated Astromech, Servomotor S-Foils
  • Primary weapon attack - means there's a detectable increase in firepower at range 1 and drop at range 3
  • Has multiple end-around movement options with a Speed 4 Koiogran and Speed 3 Talon Rolls
  • 3 Hull, 2 Shield Tokens and Integrated Astromech gives it an effective '6 hit points'
  • Agility 2- enough to reduce incoming damage but rarely enough to dodge a shot entirely.
  • Has Barrel Roll as an action. Gains a free boost or barrel roll action if it doesn't have a shot after manoeuvring.
  • Can Boost instead of barrel roll, but at a cost of firepower
  • Pretty god-awful green dial unless closing the S-foils, and not great even then, but does have the speed 1 straight that few heavy swarmers have. Combined with Barrel Roll that makes it good at a cautious 'slow roll' in to the target.

Versus the competition

• Zealous Recruit - No Upgrades
  • Yeah, this one's pretty guff. The Protectorate Starfighter's PS1 version doesn't exactly shine.
  • It's the only heavy swarmer which gets no upgrades at all. And as you might imagine, it sucks as a result
  • PS1 is in theory nice because you know you'll always be able to block - which is a good response to auzitucks, crackswarms, gunboats, etc. In a heavy swarm-off, though, it means the X-wings shoot first, five times . That's probably going to be one, maybe even two kills before you shoot in a bad head-on pass.
  • Agility 3 is nice, but 2 less hit points means in a close-range brawl with lots of unmodified shots and defences, it's going to come off worst.
  • Also has a primary weapon.
  • Has both boost and barrel roll but lacks the action economy to use them effectively because you give up your focus token to do so.
  • Its base dial is in theory better (particularly speed 2 turns being green), but aside from the speed 1 turn and speed 5 straight it doesn't really have any moves the X-wing doesn't and it gives up speed 1 straights and banks, so it all works out in the wash.
  • Green turns are nice on an ace with Push The Limit but non-elite generics shouldn't have stress tokens that often so it becomes less of an advantage.
• Cartel Marauder - Vaksai, XX-23 S-Thread Tracers, Contraband Cybernetics or Black Market Slicer Tools, Guidance Chips, Munitions Failsafe
  • Look! I have even more upgrade cards on each of my five ships than you do!
  • This is a pretty decent match for the X-wing. The pre-Vaksai Cartel Marauder was a pretty close match for an unequipped X-wing (i.e. they both sucked) but at 20 points, the Vaksai goes a different route to the Renegade X-wing; whilst the X-wing adds durability and the ability to reposition, the Vaksai adds massive action efficiency; it can't turn around as fast, but it's pretty easy for the bulk of your squad to have target lock and/or focus every turn, making it much shootier than the X-wing.
  • PS2 is identical to the Rookie Pilot.
  • Agility 2 is identical to the rookie pilot. It's a fraction more fragile with 4 hull and 1 shield token giving it 5 hit points instead of 6
  • Also has a primary weapon. However, the ability for the first ship attacking each turn to fire a thread tracer instead, combined with guidance chips (and failsafe if you somehow miss) lets you parley a focus on one ship into a target lock on everyone. Four target lock/focused attacks are brutal, especially since you can fire the thread tracer with the ship with a range 3 shot (no range bonus from range 3!) and let the ships in range 1 focus/reroll 4-dice primaries.
  • It is the only heavy swarmer with no repositioning action. As noted above in the Zealous Recruit, you have to be sparing with boosting or barrel rolling a swarmer because a bad position with a focus token is often at least as good as a good spot without one, but the inability to barrel roll does make the Khiraxz the worst blocker of the heavy swarmers. Which is admittedly a relative term, and not the most critical ability because blocking isn't as game-winning as it was (Except against Auzitucks. Because [ censored ] reinforce tokens in the [ censored ])
  • Its dial is about equivalent. Swapping a speed 3 turn for a speed 1 turn is nice in a knife fight. It lacks speed 1 straights, but still has speed 1 banks, so it's not like its minimum speed is insane, and it has multiple turn-about moves. Admittedly they're both Koiogran turns, but the speed 5 Koiogran is nice because it's very good at clearing other ships after a close-range pass.
• Cartel Spacer - "Heavy Scyk", Mangler Cannon
  • Boom. Headshot...
  • This is...not a ship I'd take a heavy swarm by itself. But it complements the Cartel Marauder so well (same PS and practically identical dial), that scum (up until the Partisans come out) Scum probably have the best heavy swarm - mix Scyks and Khiraxz to taste, with the former in the back rank and the latter in the front. It's a great support ship for its cost provided the enemy is primarily shooting at someone else, but it doesn't fold if asked to do some work on its own.
  • PS2 is identical to the Rookie Pilot - and, more importantly, the Cartel Marauder
  • Agility 3 with 3 hull and 1 shield token. Like the Zealous Recruit, it's detectably more fragile, especially at close range. Unlike the Zealous Recruit, this doesn't really matter because it's not supposed to be at close range; pegging mangler shots at people from range 3, it gets 4 green dice against primary weapons, making it one of the hardest heavy swarmers to hit.
  • The Mangler Cannon. The best gun money can buy**. But it's actually not all that devastating at range 1 - getting 3 dice to the 4 dice of most other heavy swarmers. By comparison, 3 dice with no range bonus and a 'free critical' at range 3 is lethal - you suffer no problems with opponents getting better defences at range 3 (okay, autothrusters, fair enough) and it's a lot easier to concentrate all 5 arcs of fire on the same target and a lot harder to dodge your arcs when your opponent is mid range 3 and the outer edge of your arc of fire is a couple of range bands away. Agility 0 big ships hate these things.
  • Has barrel roll - meaning if it does end up close it can play blocker for the Khiraxz.
  • Everything said about the Khiraxz' dial applies here - including the multiple koiogran turns. Interestingly, this and the khiraxz are the only ships to have neither a speed 1 straight nor a speed 5 straight.
  • It's also surprisingly good value. Along with the TIE Striker, it's able to make a heavy swarm straight out of the plastic, with all three cards listed above being in the M-3A Scyk expansion pack.
• Scarif Defender - Adaptive Ailerons, Lightweight Frame
  • And today, I'm going thiiiiis way!
  • My personal favourite ship in the game. It's a joy to fly and actually very effective en masse. Much like the flight assist X-wing, it's not only got repositioning but repositioning which doesn't cost you your action to use, which is a critical difference on a low PS generic.
  • PS3 is the best of any heavy swarmer. It does actually matter in 'normal' games here and there - being just good enough that Predator only rerolls 1 die instead of 2, getting simultaneous PS with elite Wookies, and getting the PS drop on Nu Squadron gunboats. In a heavy swarm fight, it does unto the Rookies what the Rookies do unto their PS1 rivals - namely blow one ship to bits fairly reliably before they get to shoot.
  • Agility 2 with Lightweight Frame and 4 hull - within range 2, it's functionally identical to the Zealous Recruit or Heavy Scyk - which means, detectably more fragile than the X-wing. You will need to outfly them at medium range to win.
  • Primary weapons, again. Combined with the way Lightweight Frame works, you really don't want to be at range 3 in a striker - your opponent does get their range defence bonus and you don't .
  • Barrel Roll and Adaptive Ailerons. Neither Adaptive Ailerons nor Flight Assist Astromech are strictly speaking 'better', but Flight Assist is better for either strategic movement (moving around when no shots are being exchanged) or fleeing from combat - the one thing it doesn't make the X-wing into is an 'arc dodger' because once both sides have shots it gives a satisfied beep, shuts down and goes back to playing minecraft on the back seat. By comparison, stringing together banks, segnors loops and koiogran turns in close quarters is the TIE striker's party piece, and is very good for parking it in a spot where its opponent doesn't have a shot back.
  • Its dial is very good at turning at medium-high speeds. It suffers from the highest minimum speed of any small ship in the game (effective speed 3 if not stressed!) and its dial collapses something rotten if it becomes stressed, but as long as you fly nailed to the white bits, it can dance as well as any 35+ point silencer or interceptor ace.
  • As with the Scyk, everything you need for a ship is right there in one box.
  • The wings move! It looks awesome!
• Alpha Squadron Pilot - Autothrusters
  • Meep! Meep!
  • The first heavy swarmer ever. And the most fragile, by some margin. I think this one would really struggle against the new X-wing.
  • PS1 makes it a good blocker, but as noted blocking isn't the be all and end all. PS against most opponents isn't too big a deal, because it's normally just "less than you" whatever "you" happens to be, but versus a heavy swarm of X-wings, it's going to be bloody.
  • Agility 3 with Autothrusters but only 3 hit points. It's surprising how hard these things can be to hit, but one someone connects they'll go pop like academy pilots half their price. 4 green dice, a focus token and autothrusters is as close to bloody untouchable as anything you can field 5 of has a right to expect, though - it's just that at range 2 (or, god forbid, 1) you're essentially held together by balsa wood, twine and the will of the force. They do have one advantage in that autothrusters do trigger against turrets as well - it only has to trigger once to make them as tough as a heavy scyk or striker, and primary weapon turrets will have a hard time hitting them out of arc, even at range 2.
  • The problem with being untouchable at range 3 is that so is the enemy. 5 primary weapons will waste a fair amount of damage on bonus dice.
  • Ps1 with both boost and barrel roll does make it a good blocker, I guess.
  • The dial is okay. The lack of speed 1 banks and straights hurt, but it's got all three speed options for turns.
• Scimitar Squadron Pilot - Unguided Rockets, Lightweight Frame
  • For the love of god, die already!
  • The slowest, fattest, tankiest heavy swarmer. The X-wing technically matches its damage capacity, but not its effective agility. However, it does lose a lot of its lustre if forced to pull hard manoeuvres (i.e. any ) and it really doesn't like critical damage or stress. From a certain point of view, at range 2, it has the effective stats of a TIE Defender or TIE Silencer, but turning up in packs of 5. That point of view does require you to squint a lot, though....
  • PS2 matches the Rookie
  • Agility 2 with lightweight frame and 6 hull makes it the only ship arguably tougher than the Rookie Pilot - at medium range, anyway.
  • The TIE Bomber has an irritatingly specific ideal engagement range - at range 3 lightweight frame gives you no benefit, whilst at range 1 unguided rockets give you no benefit over primary weapons. The rockets do at least ignore range combat bonus, so better to be too far away than too close.
  • It has barrel roll, like the S-foils open X-wing, and can tolerate getting kicked quite a bit so is not a bad choice for a blocker. In theory, because unguided rockets are attack [focus], using your action to barrel roll should cripple your attack (focused 3-dice attack to unfocused 2-dice attack). In practice, you're normally barrel rolling because you expect to be at range 1, so it's not bad as you get 3 dice anyway. However, like the scyk, you have a detectable lack of punch up close.
  • It has the single worst dial of any heavy swarmer. Only 1 koiogran turn (admittedly the nice fast speed 5 one), and only one practical turn at speed 3 to boot. To add insult to injury, whilst it has speed 1 banks, its green banks are at speed 2, and if stressed you desperately need to clear off that stress.

* @FTS Gecko - go, on, we all know the words: FIVE....CARTEL....

** Provided said money caps out at 20 points per ship and doesn't want one-shot crud, anyway.

Wow!

....just had to give you mad props @Magnus Grendel , you are very much a lover of this game as many of us are; but this speaks volumes to your care, regardless of our own opinions of your conclusions. You sir (and a few others on this forum who are very invested and intelligent/sharp) should be tapped by FFG to assist in their game design to be sure.

Thanks again.... you put a smile on my face.

23 hours ago, clanofwolves said:

I'm looking at my X-Wings becoming cheaper and so much better at repositioning, which, on the surface, is emotionally great!

But after I have enjoyed an original (pre-Wave IV style game), I came to understand that I really don't want better repositioning T-65s. I won, but in a real way, lost flying them. I want better T-65s that are T-65 with all their original designs powers and limitations in tact. Like free Proton Torpedo Title ? Are the designers reacting to imbalance by simply throwing all ships the same game abilities? If so, doesn't this make the abilities of original ships that relied on being super agile/fragile repositioning receive a game-play indirect nerf?

Is the game loosing its unique parts, its unique factions?

Did the game's core uniqueness start to slipping with the design decision to make turrets the best game component?

Now fixes are simply washing away the under the turret abilities?

I fear the designers are destroying the games core more and more with each design "fix" release.

It felt good, but now it feels bad...sad panda.

........now where's my tea?

How can you say the designers are destroying the game when, you have more tournaments, tournaments hitting record numbers in participants and the sales grow higher with every new wave they release?

How can you justify the affirmation "designers are destroying the games core", when the game core is to became popular and sell as much as possible?

7 hours ago, LordBlades said:

That's a bug though, not a feature.

The very essence of a point system is that, at least in theory, x points of something should be roughly as good as x points of something else.

you have to read a bit more deeply into that, though

100 points of naked cartel marauders will never stack up to five rookies. 100 points of 3 blacksun aces with poons and something else, however...

disregarding this be like trying to take 2 naked yt-1300s and expecting to beat jousters, every ship has point range at which they are most effective and the Vaksai is no longer the most effective when run essentially without upgrades

15 hours ago, Vontoothskie said:

the Xwing and khiraxz had nearly identical dials, stats, actions and pricing.

Ummm.....the 1 hard turn on the Kihraxz is highly underrated.

Also, the Illicit slot makes them pretty different to me.

This game has designers?

5 minutes ago, Velvetelvis said:

This game has designers?

No. It had designers who laid the foundation. Now it has developers who keep adding more stuff to the framework so the whole thing is starting to lean awkwardly.

32 minutes ago, Arschbombe said:

No. It had designers who laid the foundation. Now it has developers who keep adding more stuff to the framework so the whole thing is starting to lean awkwardly.

Elegant and simple statement, well thought and penned; sadly quite true I'll wager.

1 hour ago, Velvetelvis said:

This game has designers?

56 minutes ago, Arschbombe said:

No. It had designers who laid the foundation. Now it has developers who keep adding more stuff to the framework so the whole thing is starting to lean awkwardly.

23 minutes ago, clanofwolves said:

Elegant and simple statement, well thought and penned; sadly quite true I'll wager.

The industry recognizes a distinction between "Designer" and "Developer", as they have different functions and require different skillsets.

An equally important role is that of "Technical Balance", which requires a significantly different skillset than either designer or developer. Unfortunately the industry and FFG in particular does not recognize this difference and it shows.

15 hours ago, clanofwolves said:

Disagree to your wisdom for point one sir, but your closing statement is spot on. Turrets really made this mess, that caused the need for all this.

And you would be wrong!

Before we get into a shoe pounding*, name calling diatribe we need to settle on definitions of Unique and Competitive . Without that baseline any discussion is worthless.

As for turrets, if they didn't exist there would be no Y-Wings, 1300s, 2400s, Scurrgs, Jumpmasters, k-Wings, Tie Aggressors or Lancers to name a few. Would the game be better? I don't know but the meta would be different. There would be no need for a Han Solo, Chewie, Rey or Lando. Disney and LucasFilm wouldn't buy into that.

@heychadwick was spot on with his observations. Consider this: the devs trying to keep new ships unique and interesting introduced new maneuvers and game mechanics. Each wave altered the original game. Sometimes a little, sometimes a lot but the changes were there. Hence my comment that making ships unique and competitive is very difficult to do. They could have omitted pilot abilities but then Fel would be a PS7 with Veteran Instints, Wedge would be just another PS9 X-wing pilot. Any point in naming them then? Fel would just be an Imperial Ace.

How long do you think the game would have lasted if it didn't progress too far after the initial core set? Would we still be playing it? Probably not. Accretion or power creep or any other name you want to use is a fact of long lived games. It can also be the harbinger of their demise. With a few exceptions I think the devs are doing a pretty good job of keeping it manageable.

In closing consider that whatever metric, algorithm or rule of thumb the developers used to base the original core set on was skewed. As more waves were released that disparity became more and more pronounced. Which brings us to the errata, clarifications and fixes we have now.

* see Nikita Khrushchev at the U.N. mid 60s for the Younglings.

2 minutes ago, Stoneface said:

And you would be wrong!

Before we get into a shoe pounding*, name calling diatribe we need to settle on definitions of Unique and Competitive . Without that baseline any discussion is worthless.

As for turrets, if they didn't exist there would be no Y-Wings, 1300s, 2400s, Scurrgs, Jumpmasters, k-Wings, Tie Aggressors or Lancers to name a few. Would the game be better? I don't know but the meta would be different. There would be no need for a Han Solo, Chewie, Rey or Lando. Disney and LucasFilm wouldn't buy into that.

@heychadwick was spot on with his observations. Consider this: the devs trying to keep new ships unique and interesting introduced new maneuvers and game mechanics. Each wave altered the original game. Sometimes a little, sometimes a lot but the changes were there. Hence my comment that making ships unique and competitive is very difficult to do. They could have omitted pilot abilities but then Fel would be a PS7 with Veteran Instints, Wedge would be just another PS9 X-wing pilot. Any point in naming them then? Fel would just be an Imperial Ace.

How long do you think the game would have lasted if it didn't progress too far after the initial core set? Would we still be playing it? Probably not. Accretion or power creep or any other name you want to use is a fact of long lived games. It can also be the harbinger of their demise. With a few exceptions I think the devs are doing a pretty good job of keeping it manageable.

In closing consider that whatever metric, algorithm or rule of thumb the developers used to base the original core set on was skewed. As more waves were released that disparity became more and more pronounced. Which brings us to the errata, clarifications and fixes we have now.

* see Nikita Khrushchev at the U.N. mid 60s for the Younglings.

... And I just learned a new word today: diatribe. Thank you!

1 hour ago, Arschbombe said:

No. It had designers who laid the foundation. Now it has developers who keep adding more stuff to the framework so the whole thing is starting to lean awkwardly.

Unfortunately the foundation may not have been too secure.

15 hours ago, clanofwolves said:

I just loved the diversity of the factions in the early waves, that's all. @heychadwick is probably correct, that ship has sailed long ago.

...

Again, @heychadwick is the sage of the forums. Keep it up sir, you are needed in order to keep the game's "old-timers" on the level...thanks, I guess, haha.

Once they started making ships like the K-wing, Skurrg, Ghost, and Wookies, how can they go back to the game play we knew? The power creep is real. Every ship you see these days either has high repositioning, a way to shoot out if main arc, or both. The old way to play where arcs mattered is gone. I hate to say it, but it's the power curve. Personally, I love the old ships and fly them a lot in casual games.

As for "sage", thanks for the compliments. Work blocks this place, so I am not on often.

1 minute ago, dotswarlock said:

... And I just learned a new word today: diatribe. Thank you!

Those "Word a Day" calendars are great!

11 minutes ago, Stoneface said:

How long do you think the game would have lasted if it didn't progress too far after the initial core set?

I will counter with the opinion that the Devs didn't have to make the ships as unique as they did. If you have 2 ships with the same dial on different factions it would probably be fine. Or on same faction, but really different points and options.

I feel in their bid to make them all unique they ended up with ships that had everything on it for a good price. That or ships that didn't have enough and never get used.

You can make things unique without power creep (see ARCs and SF, which are creep only if you think the spray was well made to begin with). Strikers are a good example

Similarly, you can also design mechanics for iconic ships without being lazy as **** (even ffg proved this by first designing turrets and then mobile arcs)

These different facets of quality are not mutually exclusive. FFG's xwing staff just isn't the...most consistent at the whole game design thing

2 minutes ago, heychadwick said:

I will counter with the opinion that the Devs didn't have to make the ships as unique as they did. If you have 2 ships with the same dial on different factions it would probably be fine. Or on same faction, but really different points and options.

I feel in their bid to make them all unique they ended up with ships that had everything on it for a good price. That or ships that didn't have enough and never get used.

I agree. The question that needs a hard answer is "How much is too much or too little?" I think a lot of these questions were answered by gut feelings or the S.W.A.G. principle. Once a bad answer (decision) out there anything that com's after it is affected by it. Until it's restarted or clarified.

3 hours ago, ficklegreendice said:

you have to read a bit more deeply into that, though

100 points of naked cartel marauders will never stack up to five rookies. 100 points of 3 blacksun aces with poons and something else, however...

disregarding this be like trying to take 2 naked yt-1300s and expecting to beat jousters, every ship has point range at which they are most effective and the Vaksai is no longer the most effective when run essentially without upgrades

I agree. However, if x points is the number where a ship peaks, enough for it to reach optimal loadout and it still doesn't measure to x points of something else, then that is a design problem.

9 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

You can make things unique without power creep (see ARCs and SF, which are creep only if you think the spray was well made to begin with)

Similarly, you can also design mechanics for iconic ships without being lazy as **** (even ffg proved this by first designing turrets and then mobile arcs)

These different facets of quality are not mutually exclusive. FFG's xwing staff just isn't the...most consistent at the whole game design thing

My problem with the mobile arc is that it's on a ship that also has forward facing guns. I would like to have seen some play testing done on a ship without that gun pack. I don't know how effective it would be.

I didn't say anything about being mutually exclusive only that it was difficult. The design staff hasn't had a consistent make-up since inception.

2 minutes ago, Stoneface said:

I agree. The question that needs a hard answer is "How much is too much or too little?" I think a lot of these questions were answered by gut feelings or the S.W.A.G. principle. Once a bad answer (decision) out there anything that com's after it is affected by it. Until it's restarted or clarified.

You know, even with a 2.0 you won't get the game back to how it was for the early waves. These other ships just have more options and dials that will never get the game back to how it was. You can't un-make the Skurrg. It will still have all those options that it does to the point that it will still make other ships not as powerful. The only thing you can do is price them so they are just too expensive to use.

I mean, why go for a ship with normal firing arc when you can have a Wookie Gunboat that fires in 180 arc?

34 minutes ago, Stoneface said:

Unfortunately the foundation may not have been too secure.

It wasn't. (And that's not a condemnation. Jay Little and FFG did not expect X-Wing to be a juggernaut.) But the failure to acknowledge that, and either correct it or be very cautious when building on it, has been problematic.