yeah we now have an arc dodging x-wing we did not need.

I do not like upgrade spam, so the idea that many x-wings will now have 6 upgrades is annoying.

and it really leaves the khiraxz, E-wing, etc out in the cold by becoming better at their roles while costing less.

for example a 20 point ps1 khiraxz cant talon roll, barrel roll, or boost, while a 19 point ps2 x-wing can, and they have nearly identical stats and dials. also the x-wing can equip IA for a free health and astromech slot is only second to E.P. in value.

also the E-wing is an x-wing with a better action bar and dial, but now the x-wing has br and boost and talon roll, so whats the E-wing gonna get for those extra 11 points?

its just absurd that 5 x-wings vs 5 khiraxz would be so stupidly off balance when theyre supposed to play the same role

6 minutes ago, Vontoothskie said:

for example a 20 point ps1 khiraxz cant talon roll, barrel roll, or boost, while a 19 point ps2 x-wing can, and they have nearly identical stats and dials. also the x-wing can equip IA for a free health and astromech slot is only second to E.P. in value.

also the E-wing is an x-wing with a better action bar and dial, but now the x-wing has br and boost and talon roll, so whats the E-wing gonna get for those extra 11 points?

Can your X-wing shoot a Harpoon missile though? The Kihraxz never lost the only role it really had (missile carrier).

Same for the E-wing. Was there anything but Corran good?

Eh...still seeing people exaggerating "arcdodging xwing"

It isn't an advanced sensor silencer, folks. It isn't even a striker. It has sharp limits and nothing out of the ordinary apart from FAA, which isn't unique to it

Also, the khirax comparison is a bit off as I've mentioned before

The vaksai fix SCALES with upgrades, becoming more valuable the more stuff you have. Refit REMOVES an upgrade slot for a flat discount and only shaves off an extra point for epts

So you get two vastly different ships. The x is a manueverable, rock solid jouster while the vaksai is a customization monster (or, more practically, a poon boat)

They're not supposed to be the same thing

Upgrade card bloat is a perfectly valid complaint, though

I agree with Fickle.

The Xwing is not an arc dodger, but his chances of getting a shot now is much more viable. Consider it more of an offensive reposition.

The Khiraxz has a lot of things it can do with point reductions on upgrades and different types of upgrades. They aren't the same ship as as Xwing, so stop comparing them as if they are.

What the designers did was bring back X-wings in a way that they are relevant to the game that bears their name.

Yes, card bloat and power creep is real.

I would not qualify the X-Wing as an arc dodger by any means, but I would not class it as a pure jouster either. The Kimogila is a jouster: long range target lock, focus and a bullseye arc to make a straightforward joust a bad idea for the opponent (on top of a PS3). 4 Kimogilas (long range scanners) and Sunny, now that is a solid joust that will annihilate most non-splash damage type of jousts.

No... I see the X-Wing as something that has a lot more potential in terms of flanking than it used to. With flight assist astromech and those upgrades, you can have a ship that can go 4 straight, boost and barrel roll without even gaining a stress. Meanwhile it is sitting at a comfortable 3 hull, 2 shields and an integrated astromech. There's a lot to do with those basic components in terms of initial positionning.

1 hour ago, Giledhil said:

That's assuming Zealot is 19. My bet is on 20pts.

That is Zealot costing 20 (-2). They don't have EPT xD

great, now I started thinking about other ways the Vaksai is different than the X

for example, there's the "let's kill the VCX through Fenn" module which is just Fearlessness, g-chips (free munitions failsafe, because why not), stims, and cluster missiles for a potential 8 damage per vaksai --> 27 points a pop (black sun aces)

granted it's jank, but dear lord it's hilarious (and x-wings aint got nothing on it!)

1 hour ago, Punning Pundit said:

The X-Wing locks its S-foils in attack formation and you're _complaining_?!

The X-Wing now gets 2 mods and a droid slot. Show me another ships that does that.

The X-Wing can _eject the droid_ for a bit of extra survivability. That's fluffy AF. How is this something we're complaining about?!

Idk... ppl that plays other factions are jealous, maybe

34 minutes ago, Vontoothskie said:

yeah we now have an arc dodging x-wing we did not need.

I do not like upgrade spam, so the idea that many x-wings will now have 6 upgrades is annoying.

and it really leaves the khiraxz, E-wing, etc out in the cold by becoming better at their roles while costing less.

for example a 20 point ps1 khiraxz cant talon roll, barrel roll, or boost, while a 19 point ps2 x-wing can, and they have nearly identical stats and dials. also the x-wing can equip IA for a free health and astromech slot is only second to E.P. in value.

also the E-wing is an x-wing with a better action bar and dial, but now the x-wing has br and boost and talon roll, so whats the E-wing gonna get for those extra 11 points?

its just absurd that 5 x-wings vs 5 khiraxz would be so stupidly off balance when theyre supposed to play the same role

What is the name of the game again? Kihraxz Miniatures? Or do you by all means, says that Kihraxz must be superior than X-Wings? I am wondering where is the stupidly off balance here. Still need to see someone flying with 5 Kihraxz too to prove your argument. A squadron of 100 points is NEVER balanced against another 100 points squadron, the same is comparing different ship, with the same cost, but with comepletely different pilot, PS, skills and upgrades equiped or not.

I would have liked if they did something triggered by the wing Filip insread. Perhaps somthing like when flipping open do a Free blue ace boost. Disable weapons to close or something. Something that gives a tactical option, somthing that the opponent needs to take into account.

3 hours ago, clanofwolves said:

Is the game loosing its unique parts, its unique factions?

Did the game's core uniqueness start to slipping with the design decision to make turrets the best game component?

Now fixes are simply washing away the under the turret abilities?

I fear the designers are destroying the games core more and more with each design "fix" release.

...all I know is Tarn Mison is 2 points less than before...look out for me now!

1 hour ago, heychadwick said:

I would argue that most people who don't understand his post haven't been playing the game since waves 1-4. There was a time when repositioning (beyond a Tie Fighter Barrel Roll) was rare. If you guessed wrong when picking the dial, you just didn't get a shot that round. Understanding where your opponent was going to go was more important because you couldn't just "fix it" after the fact.

I'm afraid that game is gone. That ship has sailed. The genie is out of the bottle and there is no going back....unless you play with just a few friends and limit your list building. Repositioning and turrets are here and not going anywhere. Oh, not just turrets, but improved firing arcs like the Gunship.

As I saw it, the game NEVER really existed, at least at a competitive level. Players certainly experienced it early on as they learned the Core set, but it doesn't last very long before players learn to stop flying by each other with K-turns and at that point the purity of arcs turns into a raw DPS race. It's just a far too simple game to support any variety of ships and to no small degree, the current need to throw titles with special abilities on every ship at launch is a reflection of how little design space was built into the core card layout. The game's variables are just too simple to keep "pure" ship design from turning into efficiency math.

2 hours ago, ficklegreendice said:

actually, the fact that the old models can't open-close their s-foils has been a longstanding fundamental problem that greatly tarnishes their representation in game

plz fix, FFG

1 hour ago, Seabook said:

What is the name of the game again? Kihraxz Miniatures? Or do you by all means, says that Kihraxz must be superior than X-Wings? I am wondering where is the stupidly off balance here. Still need to see someone flying with 5 Kihraxz too to prove your argument. A squadron of 100 points is NEVER balanced against another 100 points squadron, the same is comparing different ship, with the same cost, but with comepletely different pilot, PS, skills and upgrades equiped or not.

so in Warhammer do characters weilding warhammers get massive bonuses to the point of being OP? there is no logic there

i agree the X-wing needed a buff, but i do not think it need to switch roles in game from jouster to arc dodger.

and as for 2 squads of 100 points being fairly equal... that is literally the stated purpose of squad points in the game. i do agree that it will never be exact, but the goal is to get it as close as is practical to achieve.

i brought up the khiraxz because it is supposed to mirror the X-wing within the design space... its supposed to fill the same role. this makes comparing them easy and makes power creep obvious in ways that other more eclectic ships cant really be compared.

3/2/3/2 and 3/2/4/1 are virtually the same, with the shield being slightly more valuable.

action bars were the same, now the X has 2 extra actions.

X pilots have higher ps for the points

Astromech is more valuable than illicit. X wins again

regen potential with 2 shields and astro is good

new talon roll is HUGELY in favor of the X-wing

and pilots now cost less for x-wings vs khiraxz of equivalent P.S.

the x can equip 2 mods while the Krx can equip 3, titles are pretty equivalent value in price reduction though the x-wing gets better options to spend that on.

so im seeing 1 thing in favor of khiraxz(missile is better than torpedo currently) while theres half a dozen significant ways X-wings are better than khiraxz. and the 2 are meant to be equal. kinda lame

7 minutes ago, Vontoothskie said:

so in Warhammer do characters weilding warhammers get massive bonuses to the point of being OP? there is no logic there

i agree the X-wing needed a buff, but i do not think it need to switch roles in game from jouster to arc dodger.

and as for 2 squads of 100 points being fairly equal... that is literally the stated purpose of squad points in the game. i do agree that it will never be exact, but the goal is to get it as close as is practical to achieve.

i brought up the khiraxz because it is supposed to mirror the X-wing within the design space... its supposed to fill the same role. this makes comparing them easy and makes power creep obvious in ways that other more eclectic ships cant really be compared.

3/2/3/2 and 3/2/4/1 are virtually the same, with the shield being slightly more valuable.

action bars were the same, now the X has 2 extra actions.

X pilots have higher ps for the points

Astromech is more valuable than illicit. X wins again

regen potential with 2 shields and astro is good

new talon roll is HUGELY in favor of the X-wing

and pilots now cost less for x-wings vs khiraxz of equivalent P.S.

the x can equip 2 mods while the Krx can equip 3, titles are pretty equivalent value in price reduction though the x-wing gets better options to spend that on.

so im seeing 1 thing in favor of khiraxz(missile is better than torpedo currently) while theres half a dozen significant ways X-wings are better than khiraxz. and the 2 are meant to be equal. kinda lame

Yep, T-65 and Kihraxz are different ships, from different factions, they will never fly the same or to be balanced. When they released Guns for Hire, did someone made any scandal that the game is dying or the devs are getting crazy? Nope, but probably someone said some ships need fixes as well so they can be used again. They did a nice work imo for T-65, hope to see the same for other ships. Got nothing to complain here. You shouldn't compare T-65 with a Kihraxz also.

51 minutes ago, Vontoothskie said:

so in Warhammer do characters weilding warhammers get massive bonuses to the point of being OP? there is no logic there

No, but Spacemarines are always viable, and basically are guaranteed to have fresh codices all the time. Not something many of the lesser factions can boast with.

36 minutes ago, Seabook said:

Yep, T-65 and Kihraxz are different ships, from different factions, they will never fly the same or to be balanced. When they released Guns for Hire, did someone made any scandal that the game is dying or the devs are getting crazy? Nope, but probably someone said some ships need fixes as well so they can be used again. They did a nice work imo for T-65, hope to see the same for other ships. Got nothing to complain here. You shouldn't compare T-65 with a Kihraxz also.

Full disclosure, I probably did.

But it was Scum stuff, so they had it coming.

28 minutes ago, Commander Kaine said:

Full disclosure, I probably did.

But it was Scum stuff, so they had it coming.

Yeah, probably someone did, but it is ok, it happens. Next fix or nerf, we will have more xD

4 hours ago, Seabook said:

Yep, T-65 and Kihraxz are different ships, from different factions, they will never fly the same or to be balanced. When they released Guns for Hire, did someone made any scandal that the game is dying or the devs are getting crazy? Nope, but probably someone said some ships need fixes as well so they can be used again. They did a nice work imo for T-65, hope to see the same for other ships. Got nothing to complain here. You shouldn't compare T-65 with a Kihraxz also.

wow, youre strawmanning me pretty hard there. i didnt say this ruined the game, i said it created more problems by elevating the base mobility of a jouster in a way that makes other ships worse.

by youre logic I could argue that the tie FO and Tie Fighter should both cost 12 points because squad points shouldnt reflect value and "theyre different ships". lol

the Xwing and khiraxz had nearly identical dials, stats, actions and pricing. now the X-wing is better in every single category and costs less points to boot. thats generally referred to as powercreep, and at least to me it signals that the developers intend to encourage upgrade spam and deck building while removing player agency and importance of choice in the game. pretty lame as far as im concerned. this was one of the last opportunities to rebalance things without furthering powercreep, and the devs blew it

might be the end of my x-wing carreer, but ill wait to see how busted the rest of this wave is

Actually, khirax similarity with Xwing is completely engineered by fluff and not at all reflected in game. The khirax dial has more in common with a TIE than an X (no 1 foward, but has 1 turns and two k-turns)

Also, the vaksai has

1.) More modifcations (better access to EU + thrusters because they don't cost 6 points,can take pulsed Rey while the X can't)

****, the x is only ever using servos + integrated 10 times out of 10, unless the unspoiled thruster in Saw's is ridiculous

2.) Illicit upgrade, which is still very strong (stims)

3.) Missiles, especially Poons, while the fixed X has zero ordnance at all

Sure you could keep drawing non-existent parralels, but they're not even remotely similar ships anymore. Never were really, other than they both were never used upon release. One also isn't confirmed "better" than the other because Poons are actually THAT good

And really, if the saw's is the expac that signals power creep and removal of player agency, I have no idea where you were looking before the jm5k or nym got nerfed

Seriously, this is perhaps the single worst expac to hold up as power creep and the removal of player skill when it's bringing moderately powered arc-locked ships to the game. It's literally the exact opposite of those complaints

10 hours ago, ficklegreendice said:

actually, the fact that the old models can't open-close their s-foils has been a longstanding fundamental problem that greatly tarnishes their representation in game

plz fix, FFG

Blue Squadron expac.

Rebel paint job, Merrick and the gang, plus moving s-foils.

10 hours ago, FTS Gecko said:

@clanofwolves, I'm getting dangerously close to responding to your posts with Gene Wilder memes.

It's not enough that FFG are going back to fix underperforming wave one ships? They need to fix them in a way that's personally acceptable to individual forum users as well? That way lies madness, my friend.

I'm fine with Gene Wilder memes actually. I guess I was pondering in a non-forum way, perhaps too poetic in tone. I don't want any ships or fixes to bend towards individuals, that needs to be clear; I just loved the diversity of the factions in the early waves, that's all. @heychadwick is probably correct, that ship has sailed long ago.

10 hours ago, Jehan Menasis said:

Well, as matter of fact, imperials play nowadays almost like rebels, without regen.

Aside from the occasional Striker filler, or Omega Troller, I no longer see anything under 5 hull flown. Maybe the sporadic Inquisitor (which is essentially an imperial A-wing, and only because it has 3 attack dice)... And some snowflake builds here and there.

All I see are Decimators, TIE /SFs, Defenders, and some lonely Vaders... And the few remaining Lambdas will disappear as soon as the Reaper arrives.

This.

The uniqueness and power of the Empire is gone. Am I glad my beloved T-65s are really manuverable, cheaper and tanky? Yes. But they missed the mark as they didn't think about the whole package...they probably never do. The developers have, bit by bit, washed the child like heart and clear diversity out of the game.

9 hours ago, Stoneface said:

...It's extremely difficult to make ships unique and equality competitive.

As for the TLT. It's not the problem. If it were you'd still see Y-Wing with TLT x 4 everywhere. It's a problem on two builds. Miranda and the Ghost/Phantom. Miranda could be handled by making her regen require primary weapon only.

Disagree to your wisdom for point one sir, but your closing statement is spot on. Turrets really made this mess, that caused the need for all this.

8 hours ago, heychadwick said:

I would argue that most people who don't understand his post haven't been playing the game since waves 1-4. There was a time when repositioning (beyond a Tie Fighter Barrel Roll) was rare. If you guessed wrong when picking the dial, you just didn't get a shot that round. Understanding where your opponent was going to go was more important because you couldn't just "fix it" after the fact.

I'm afraid that game is gone. That ship has sailed. The genie is out of the bottle and there is no going back....unless you play with just a few friends and limit your list building. Repositioning and turrets are here and not going anywhere. Oh, not just turrets, but improved firing arcs like the Gunship.

Again, @heychadwick is the sage of the forums. Keep it up sir, you are needed in order to keep the game's "old-timers" on the level...thanks, I guess, haha.

2 hours ago, ficklegreendice said:

Actually, khirax similarity with Xwing is completely engineered by fluff and not at all reflected in game. The khirax dial has more in common with a TIE than an X (no 1 foward, but has 1 turns and two k-turns)

Also, the vaksai has

1.) More modifcations (better access to EU + thrusters because they don't cost 6 points,can take pulsed Rey while the X can't)

****, the x is only ever using servos + integrated 10 times out of 10, unless the unspoiled thruster in Saw's is ridiculous

2.) Illicit upgrade, which is still very strong (stims)

3.) Missiles, especially Poons, while the fixed X has zero ordnance at all

Sure you could keep drawing non-existent parralels, but they're not even remotely similar ships anymore. Never were really, other than they both were never used upon release. One also isn't confirmed "better" than the other because Poons are actually THAT good

And really, if the saw's is the expac that signals power creep and removal of player agency, I have no idea where you were looking before the jm5k or nym got nerfed

Seriously, this is perhaps the single worst expac to hold up as power creep and the removal of player skill when it's bringing moderately powered arc-locked ships to the game. It's literally the exact opposite of those complaints

I always saw the khiraxz as having an Inquisitor dial, but a little worse. As for the comparison to the X I have to mostly agree with you.

The X is "Hunter" sort of ship, it has enough repositioning on high PS ships to hold its own in a 1v1 without being obliterated, but not enough to do the classic soontir/Inquisitor arc dodging shenanigans. The regeneration is solid, but not Miranda or Poe solid due to the limitations of the chassis (no autothrusters/turret/ordnance) and it doesn't really want to take a missile to the face with only 2 shields and 2 focus modded agility. It can joust, be a filler or be an endgame ship, but isn't great at any of them.

the K fighter alternatively can fill a lot of roles, but this comes from listbuilding rather than flying and tactics. Fundamentally they are different ships that both act as sort of "jack of all trade" style fighters and as such some overlap is expected.

looking forward to the X fix and I've always loved myself some Khiraxz