On page 79 of Terrinoth, the Drain upgrade while active causes enemies within short range to suffer 2 strain.

Minions and Rivals do not suffer strain. So would this then cause all minions and rivals to suffer 2 wounds? If this is the case, for minion groups, would this apply to the top of the group's wound threshold or to each minion's individual wound threshold? The way it is written, it says "enemies," so it leads me to believe that could be to each individual minion.

If this is the case, then Drain with a Duration upgrade or two would be devastating to minion groups!

From a player perspective, I hope this is true! From a GM perspective, that means I would have to pay extra close attention to how many minions I throw at them because they have suddenly become a little mushier, especially if this is paired with Unleash.

Minions and rivals do not have a strain threshold, and thus any strain they suffer is transferred to their wounds.

As for how many minions take the hit, each minion group counts as one target, so the entire minion group suffers 2 wounds (bypassing soak since it's not strain damage ).

29 minutes ago, Archangel3000 said:

Minions and Rivals do not suffer strain.

More precisely:

Minions and rivals do not have a strain threshold . Minions cannot voluntarily suffer strain to take an extra maneuver , activate abilities , etc. Rivals can voluntarily suffer strain for those purposes. Both can suffer involuntary strain. Regardless of the source, any strain taken by minions or rivals is applied to their wound threshold.

But, yes, they can suffer strain. Minions and rivals suffer strain as wounds.

@CMink That's what I meant but it didn't come out that way. I do thank you for clarifying that!

On 4/23/2018 at 1:29 PM, c__beck said:

As for how many minions take the hit, each minion group counts as one target, so the entire minion group suffers 2 wounds (bypassing soak since it's not strain damage ).

@c__beck I've been thinking more about what you said and I want to respectfully push back. Because the RAW says "enemies" and not "targets" it leads me to view a minion group as individual enemies for the purpose of this Ability Upgrade. Also, and more specifically, this Upgrade is an Area Affect. It targets all enemies in short range. Narratively speaking, if this is an area affect, then anyone walking into it suffers. Just because I am a minion and I team up with 3 other buddies to attack this hero doesn't mean that one of us suffers and the others don't. To further illustrate, I want to put into a narrative.

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A group of four thugs (minion group), at the behest of their leader (rival), band together to attack this fool of an old man who thinks he can walk their street and not pay their "protection" fee like everyone else. They surround the mage threatening him and demand their fee or else. The old man laughs at their brazen foolishness and warns them to stand aside as not all elderly men with canes are in need of protection. The leader becomes enraged at the pride and arrogance of this walking bag of bones and tells his boys to teach him a lesson. The old man slams the end of his staff into the ground and a painful waive of exhaustion flows through the gang (triggering his Heroic Ability with Drain). The leader curses as he realizes this old man is some form of wizard and runs at him with his club hoping to dispatch him quickly before he has a chance to weave more of his magics on them. Swinging his club, the old man side steps the attack and again the leader curses as he realizes he's left himself open.

The four thugs on the other hand feel like the wind has been taken out of them and just to move is painful. But, upon seeing their leader in a vulnerable position, they rush their enemy and hope to overpower him with sheer numbers. It seems that despite their labored moving, their numbers have added a bit of luck to their attack and they manage to connect their strikes with the old man. While numbers are on their side, this crippled looking man seems to shrug off their attack and hits back with his own punch.

The old man knows how weak these minions are and knows that if he can take out their leader, they will most likely scatter. And so, pressing his advantage on the leader's missed attack, he summons the forces of the Verto Magica and sends a ball of pure energy into the back of his rival. The ball catches him square in his back with such force that it sends him flying across the street and into the stall of a street vendor.

As the old man summons his powers and is forming his ball of death, another wave of painful exhaustion sweeps over the thugs and this time causes two of them to clutch their stomachs and the other two to clutch their heads as the pain is almost too much for them to bare. As their leader becomes a human missile and smashes the stall, the lowly thugs decide that the better part of valor is live to fight another and so scatter hoping to put as much distance between this sorcerer and them as they can.

Now, that was narratively done with Drain affecting each minion individually because it is an area affect. Here's how it would look if it just targeted the group.

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...The leader curses as he realizes this old man is some form of wizard and runs at him with his club hoping to dispatch him quickly before he has a chance to weave more of his magics. Swinging his club, the old man side steps the attack and again the leader curses as he realizes he's left himself open.

One of the thugs grabs his side as if in pain and his buddies stare at him as if he's loosing it. But upon seeing their leader in a vulnerable position, they rush their enemy and hope to overpower him with sheer numbers. Despite one of their members painfully laboring to keep up, their numbers compensate for his lack of strength and they manage to connect their strikes with the old man. While numbers are on their side, this crippled looking man some how seems to shrug off their attack and hits back with his own punch.

Even though the old man is surrounded by multiple opponents, he decides to continue pressing his advantage on the leader's missed attack. Summoning the forces of the Verto Magica, he sends a ball of pure energy into the back of his rival. The ball catches him square in his back with such force that it sends him flying across the street and into the stall of a street vendor.

As the old man summons his powers and is forming his ball of death, another wave of painful exhaustion sweeps over the thugs. Their buddy, who had been clutching his side, cries out in pain and looks as if he is about to double over. As their leader becomes a human missile and smashes the stall, the thugs act quickly and press their attack before this sorcerer can cause any more trouble for them...

This second example is if Drain targets just the group and thereby only ends up affecting one minion at a time.

It doesn't make sense, narratively, to me that an area affect like Drain would only affect the group as one unit and thereby only causing strain to one thug and not the others who are standing right next to him. What if there are two rivals and a minion group? Would it only affect the two rivals and hurt one minion while his buddies next to him remain unphased? I get what you're saying about it hitting the group as a whole but, for me, it doesn't seem to fit the flavor of what it is descriptively accomplishing.

Those are just my thoughts and I, by no means, pretend to be an expert on the rules. So I welcome any push back/feedback anyone would like to offer.

@Archangel3000 might be worth asking FFG what the intent is.

The book doesn't have a technical differentiation between "enemies" and "targets", and uses both interchangeably for the same thing. Targets is a bit more common, if the ability can target allies or enemies, but enemies, adversaries, NPCs, and targets have all been used in the past.

It’s the Grenade issue all over again.

If you treat Minions as individuals and then apply the damage to each target, then add up that amount, then remove the number of minions from that group that are equal to...

I’m bored already and I’m typing the thing.

KISS theory please! It makes for better story telling.

5 hours ago, GM Hooly said:

It’s the Grenade issue all over again.

If you treat Minions as individuals and then apply the damage to each target, then add up that amount, then remove the number of minions from that group that are equal to...

I’m bored already and I’m typing the thing.

KISS theory please! It makes for better story telling.

Bingo! The rule of cool wins. "But that's OP!" Minions are there to be cannon fodder for the heroes. If you want to make it tough, turn them into rivals.

I would also treat each minion as being affected, not each minion group. Otherwise, in your example, the damage dealt would be different whether it was 1 rival + 1 4-minion group, or 1 rival + 2 2-minion groups, or 1 rival + 4 1-minion groups. Which makes no sense.

I emailed FFG and received a response from Tim Huckelbery:

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The effect is applied to each character, so each one suffers the strain. Then you tally it up and apply it to the entire minion group.

So, if you have a minion group of 4 with 4 wounds each for a total of 16 wounds, the minion group as a whole suffers 8 strain (wounds) (2 for each minion). Add the 8 wounds to the group's 16 wound threshold and you just killed off 2 minions.

And I did clarify that with Tim too.

On 4/23/2018 at 1:50 PM, CMink said:

More precisely:

Minions and rivals do not have a strain threshold . Minions cannot voluntarily suffer strain to take an extra maneuver , activate abilities , etc. Rivals can voluntarily suffer strain for those purposes. Both can suffer involuntary strain. Regardless of the source, any strain taken by minions or rivals is applied to their wound threshold.

But, yes, they can suffer strain. Minions and rivals suffer strain as wounds.

Ok, I want to be sure I understand, given a Minion Group and Rival with Parry:

A) A Minion Group wouldn’t be able to have Parry (or any other Talent, etc.) where it’s “Spend X strain to do Y”

B) A Rival with Parry ( or any other Talent, etc.) where it’s “Spend X strain to do Y” can Spend X Strain, but it comes off wounds instead.

Am i understanding correctly?

1 hour ago, TCArknight said:

Ok, I want to be sure I understand, given a Minion Group and Rival with Parry:

A) A Minion Group wouldn’t be able to have Parry (or any other Talent, etc.) where it’s “Spend X strain to do Y”

B) A Rival with Parry ( or any other Talent, etc.) where it’s “Spend X strain to do Y” can Spend X Strain, but it comes off wounds instead.

Am i understanding correctly?

Yes.