This game has many issues. I'm not saying it's not fun, but it could be better. In this series of posts, I am going to talk about what I perceive to be problematic in the game. The reason for doing this, is to start a focused discussion on the design of certain elements, and brainstorm ways that could be implemented to make them more fun.

Now if you don't think this sounds good, please don't post in this thread. Also, I would like to keep this discussion fairly on topic and focused, so keep that in mind.

With that out of the way, let's talk about what I consider the biggest flaws of the game, chief among them are turrets, the first of these topics.

Turrets are just so **** efficient. But that is not the problem, really efficient ships can still be fun. Their problem is the removal of agency. Why do I say that?

Well, the game is(was) about positioning, and maneuvering, and trying to get ships in arc. Obviously, turrets are a way to work around this, and that is fine. Turrets exist in the star wars universe, and some ships really need them to work at all. What is not okay, is the removal of player input because of turrets. It's one thing to be able to fire outside your firing arc, and a completely other to be able to fire at anyone within range, with no regard to any of that player's choices made in the game. The ability to fire in a 360 arc should be limited. That way, the 360 still outperforms the arc-locked ships, but with added decision making in the process.

Think about this: You have an arc-dodger. That ship archetype is made to counter jousters. Now, does the arc-dodger ace automatically win all match ups against jousters, without any input from the player? No, that's called jousting, and arc-dodgers lose that fight big time. To actually win that match up, arc-dodgers need to invest actions and decision making to come out victorious. They have to dodge the arcs. Now this provides fun, because a: you can outthink your opponent, b, people sometimes screw up. So while arc dodgers have an inherent advantage against jousters, they have to actually do something for that advantage to manifest.

Now, let's apply the same logic to arc-dodgers and turrets, and we will soon see the issue. Turrets beat arc-dodgers, and there is no decision making to help with that. Most turrets don't care about arcs, and why would they? The only chance an arc-dodger has against a turret, is AT. Pretty much a mandatory upgrade, that in turn turns certain ships nigh unbeatable. The burden of winning that matchup is on the arc-dodger. They have to spend their points on an upgrade, to even be able to compete against their natural predators. And they still have to invest their arc-dodging during the round, spending actions, often stressing themselves, and losing modifications for their attacks.
Turrets just beat them, with no effort, and it is the arc-dodger that needs to send additional resources, both before and during game, while in the arc-dodger jouster matchup, it is the dominant side that has to invest for victory.

This is the problem with turrets. They are super reliable at no cost to the player during the game. They are the dominant side to any matchup, and their opponents have to build against them. Because of this, they restrict squadbuilding, and they remove an element of decision making from the game, lowering the skill floor, creating frustration among players.


So, how do we fix that? I have heard many suggestions, my favorite that I often made, was to make an Attack: target lock requirement for all primary and secondary turrets. It still allows a turret to win a confrontation with an Ace easily, but it requires some skill and investment of actions.

What other ideas do you have? What do you think about the issue?

yuc turrets

The mobile arc of the Lancer demonstrates how all turrets should have been implemented.

But, without a large change in how X-wing works, that isn't going to happen.

Jousters should be able to beat turrets, but some of the best jousters currently are, in fact, also turrets. I'd be quite happy for arc-dodgers to lose to turrets if turrets then lose to jousters. Take 3 ships, one of each, and your relative skill at matching up the right opponent ship then helps determine who wins.

So, certain ships need to be adjusted: large ship repositioning to stop RAC and others from dodging arcs too easily; Scurrg, K-wings, and VCX should either be weaker at jousting too or lose their turrets; and then try your target lock idea out.

There's a lot to fix: see Major Juggler's and CitrusCannon's attempts and help them out. It'll be far more use than anything in this thread!

Basically agree with everything

Turrets are a product of short sighted game design back when the devs made a small, casual game that would not last beyond the OT

Mobile arcs are what they should have been, and jousters should always beat them in a die-off

Retroactively mobile arcing them is impossible (missed a golden opportunity with heroes to MA the crusty falcon), but we can at least make them less efficient with a few simple measures

We can start by disallowing non-token modifiers when firing out of arc

Separate Turret Dice (yellow)? Or just out of arc dice.

Exchange one critical for one blank on one of the sides.

The answer is never more dice

Especially not given how consistent turret modifiers are

1 hour ago, Commander Kaine said:

"Well, the game is(was) about positioning, and maneuvering, and trying to get ships in arc. (...)"

...arc dodger with high PS dominated the meta and people complained about Sonthir fel, Whisper, Vader, Corran Horn. That's why turrets had to make an appearance and are the deterrent to High PS Arc Dodgers.

The game isn't well built. It's playable, it's fun but, by all means, it isn't a well balanced and well designed game.

Instead of complaining about, turrets, and OP this and OP that and the meta and the dice... what about just playing the game just like it is?! With the perks and flaw that it has. If you want to play for fun, just play for fun and don't play competitively.

There isn't a single miniature game or card game that is fun competitively. All have broken lists, broken combos, all of them have the super efficient lists and the over the top combo that the designer never thought about.

If you want to play competitively, use competitive lists. Take advantage of all the shenanigan the game system provides so you can win tournaments.

If it's fun and fairness you seek, just play with your friends, on the kitchen table, on a store games night with thematic missions and house rules, where you can ban turrets and play the game the way you want.

There are thousands os posts on every single forum about x-wing, with people wanting this or that to be fixed. In my opinion, the only thing that really has to be fixed, is the was people look at the game. Specially the ones who complain and go to every tournament at the local store.

3 minutes ago, pflrocha said:

...arc dodger with high PS dominated the meta and people complained about Sonthir fel, Whisper, Vader, Corran Horn. That's why turrets had to make an appearance and are the deterrent to High PS Arc Dodgers.

The game isn't well built. It's playable, it's fun but, by all means, it isn't a well balanced and well designed game.

Instead of complaining about, turrets, and OP this and OP that and the meta and the dice... what about just playing the game just like it is?! With the perks and flaw that it has. If you want to play for fun, just play for fun and don't play competitively.

There isn't a single miniature game or card game that is fun competitively. All have broken lists, broken combos, all of them have the super efficient lists and the over the top combo that the designer never thought about.

If you want to play competitively, use competitive lists. Take advantage of all the shenanigan the game system provides so you can win tournaments.

If it's fun and fairness you seek, just play with your friends, on the kitchen table, on a store games night with thematic missions and house rules, where you can ban turrets and play the game the way you want.

There are thousands os posts on every single forum about x-wing, with people wanting this or that to be fixed. In my opinion, the only thing that really has to be fixed, is the was people look at the game. Specially the ones who complain and go to every tournament at the local store.

Dude.... What should I write next time, so that people actually listen? I asked you nicely, that if you disagree, and you don't find this to be an issue, please don't post.
I had this talk many times. I'm not interested in doing it again. Not today.

So please, just leave.

you're missing the point. There is no possible fixes for the game. Only the ocasional patch provided by the ocasional FAQ.

FFG doesn't have a mathematical formula to calculate the accurate cost of the ships and upgrades, and the point cost of ships and upgrades is a core mechanic of the game.

Having said that, what in gods name do you want to be fixed that doesn't cause a disruption on the game?

It's a game of 100 points, where Lowhhrick costs 1 less point than Miranda... and you're looking for a fix on turrets.

Only get r1 bonus for in arc.

Done. That’s all imo that’s needed atm.

And for secondary weapons r3 should grant the extra evade die lol

Why would you post something so courageous and so true

21 minutes ago, pflrocha said:

you're missing the point. There is no possible fixes for the game. Only the ocasional patch provided by the ocasional FAQ.

FFG doesn't have a mathematical formula to calculate the accurate cost of the ships and upgrades, and the point cost of ships and upgrades is a core mechanic of the game.

Having said that, what in gods name do you want to be fixed that doesn't cause a disruption on the game?

It's a game of 100 points, where Lowhhrick costs 1 less point than Miranda... and you're looking for a fix on turrets.

It is also impossible (from empirical data) that we will ever reach world peace.

Doesn't mean we should stop trying.

The point is discussion, not fixing. I said so. You are clearly not interested in that, and I am not interested in what you have to say about the futility of this thread. So why are you here?

5 minutes ago, Commander Kaine said:

"(...) So why are you here?"

'Cause I can.

And that, is like the rules, you can't fix it.

1 minute ago, pflrocha said:

'Cause I can.

And that, is like the rules, you can't fix it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5ZtDoToAz8

I think the issue with turrets comes down to the amount of ships that use them effectively out of arc. While the Falcon dominated for a while, autothrusters helped bring arc dodgers back, but now there are too many (and it could be just the need to do something with TLT) I think ships should be rewarded by good flying, offensively, defensively or both.

My idea for possible fixes through an errata:

1. Shots taken out of arc cannot be modified by spending focus tokens (keeps target locks, pilot abilities and expertise) this will encourage more attention to keeping arcs

2. Ships with primary turrets do not add the range 1 bonus when attacking out of arc (it should be harder to shoot moving ships when they are close)

3. When defending, if you are out of the firing arc of the attacking ship, either roll 1 extra defense die, or change 1 focus to an evade (don't know if the first is too powerful for high agility arc dodgers with autothrusters)

4. TLT specifically, you cannot modify shots taken out of arc. (Miranda specifically, her ability only works while attacking a ship in arc)

5. Blaster turret, remove the spend focus requirement (I know it actually helps turrets, but if TLT can be brought down, it could see play)

Fixes through new cards:

Targeting Jammer. Modification. 1 point. When defending, if you are outside the attacker's firing arc, you may change 1 of the attackers hit result to a focus. You may equip another modification that costs 2 or less points.

Anticipation. Modification, 0 points. When defending, if you are outside the attacker's firing arc, roll 1 additional defense die. If the attacking ship is in your firing arc, you may change 1 focus to an evade.

Evasive maneuver. Modification. 0 points. Once per round, when an enemy ship declares you the target of an attack, if you are outside their firing arc, you may perform a free barrel roll or boost action.

Amazing. Everything you just said was wrong.

It's a lot easier to counter high ps aces than turrets

Bombs (ACTION ones detonate before they activate, rigged cargo also), auto damage in general, stress mechanics (esp stress snapshot) and blocking (esp with int agent)

Turrets don't care about any of these. They were have to approach you and are too chuncky care anyway

People who claim the game shouldn't be changed because "it can't be fixed" are imo not bothering to put in the minimum creative effort

The game can EASILY be improved by curtailing turret mechanics even a little bit more. The less dominat they are, the more manuevering (ie the dang gameplay) matters

4 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

(...)People who claim the game shouldn't be changed because "it can't be fixed" are imo not bothering to put in the minimum creative effort

I can't see a single point in having such creative effort.

Will the discussion on this topic change a single virgule in anything written on any upgrade, pilot card or game rule?... No!

The ones earning piles of money with the game don't make those creative efforts. If they did, the game would be quite different.

The only reason I see for topics like this one, is the typical "I can't win, the game is broken, the game needs a fix so I can win".

You should play with the rules the game have, not with the rules you want the game to have.

3 minutes ago, pflrocha said:

You should play with the rules the game have, not with the rules you want the game to have.

... Or play with the rules you want the game to have. They're better.

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/265439-alternative-play-format-objectives-for-x-wing/

4 minutes ago, pflrocha said:

The only reason I see for topics like this one, is the typical "I can't win, the game is broken, the game needs a fix so I can win".

Well, clearly you lack the capability of understanding the point, or even the motivation behind the post. Maybe you are out of your element?

8 minutes ago, pflrocha said:

I can't see a single point in having such creative effort.

Will the discussion on this topic change a single virgule in anything written on any upgrade, pilot card or game rule?... No!

The ones earning piles of money with the game don't make those creative efforts. If they did, the game would be quite different.

The only reason I see for topics like this one, is the typical "I can't win, the game is broken, the game needs a fix so I can win".

You should play with the rules the game have, not with the rules you want the game to have.

Problem here is things have changed

A lot

Across multiple ships

So raise a stink, because apparently it works

Sitting around with a thumb up your butt wondering why people seem to care, well that's a far more baffling use of your time imo

1 minute ago, player2072913 said:

... Or play with the rules you want the game to have. They're better.

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/265439-alternative-play-format-objectives-for-x-wing/

I agree. The Alternative play format with objectives is great. It's well built, play tested and fun but, unfortunately, those aren't the rules used in competitive play.

As I said before, you can play the game the way you want at the kitchen table or at the game nights at the local store but, if you want to play competitively, you have to play with the rules that are dealt.

This topics about fixes are nothing but intellectual masturbation, without any practical result coming out of it.

1 hour ago, pflrocha said:

...arc dodger with high PS dominated the meta and people complained about Sonthir fel, Whisper, Vader, Corran Horn. That's why turrets had to make an appearance and are the deterrent to High PS Arc Dodgers.

The game isn't well built. It's playable, it's fun but, by all means, it isn't a well balanced and well designed game.

Instead of complaining about, turrets, and OP this and OP that and the meta and the dice... what about just playing the game just like it is?! With the perks and flaw that it has. If you want to play for fun, just play for fun and don't play competitively.

There isn't a single miniature game or card game that is fun competitively. All have broken lists, broken combos, all of them have the super efficient lists and the over the top combo that the designer never thought about.

If you want to play competitively, use competitive lists. Take advantage of all the shenanigan the game system provides so you can win tournaments.

If it's fun and fairness you seek, just play with your friends, on the kitchen table, on a store games night with thematic missions and house rules, where you can ban turrets and play the game the way you want.

There are thousands os posts on every single forum about x-wing, with people wanting this or that to be fixed. In my opinion, the only thing that really has to be fixed, is the was people look at the game. Specially the ones who complain and go to every tournament at the local store.

i would take it one step further... tournaments make games toxic.

players shouldnt have ranks, trophies, etc because those things exist outside the game, and if you are emphasizing the importance of those things, winning over fun and enjoyment, youre emphasizing toxicity.

this is super evident in games like league of legends or MTG which have both casual and competetive scenes. the casual modes are fun, people compliment opponents on good plays, befriend others, etc. meanwhile the competitive modes have people getting aggressive and ****. ive seen multiple "dont **** my rank" comments in league, which is utter garbage. its a game

2 minutes ago, pflrocha said:

This topics about fixes are nothing but intellectual masturbation, without any practical result coming out of it.

Personally, I'd consider the alternate formats a practical result of talking about fixes, but eh.

1 hour ago, pflrocha said:

...arc dodger with high PS dominated the meta and people complained about Sonthir fel, Whisper, Vader, Corran Horn. That's why turrets had to make an appearance and are the deterrent to High PS Arc Dodgers.

The game isn't well built. It's playable, it's fun but, by all means, it isn't a well balanced and well designed game.

Instead of complaining about, turrets, and OP this and OP that and the meta and the dice... what about just playing the game just like it is?! With the perks and flaw that it has. If you want to play for fun, just play for fun and don't play competitively.

There isn't a single miniature game or card game that is fun competitively. All have broken lists, broken combos, all of them have the super efficient lists and the over the top combo that the designer never thought about.

If you want to play competitively, use competitive lists. Take advantage of all the shenanigan the game system provides so you can win tournaments.

If it's fun and fairness you seek, just play with your friends, on the kitchen table, on a store games night with thematic missions and house rules, where you can ban turrets and play the game the way you want.

There are thousands os posts on every single forum about x-wing, with people wanting this or that to be fixed. In my opinion, the only thing that really has to be fixed, is the was people look at the game. Specially the ones who complain and go to every tournament at the local store.

you have a really poor attitude about people disagreeing with you. obviously everyone on here plays the game. some of them have differing ideas on how that game experience should be. theorycrafting certainly isnt hurting anyone., and FFG has listened in the past, so there is some reasonable purpose to this conversation, even if it only helps the community create x-wing 2.0

40 minutes ago, pflrocha said:

This topics about fixes are nothing but intellectual masturbation

What's wrong with masturbation?