It sort of seems like the generic missile carriers have all but vanished, aside from Harpoon-toting gunboats. Last time I saw a TIE Bomber, B-Wing, or Y-Wing that isn't carrying a turret? I can't even recall...

So, proposing an upgrade to add a newly-inserted game mechanic to some of these earlier releases:

The list of ships that can really make use of this is not super large, and I don't think this would be a broken capability with any of them. For example:

• Y-Wing. Putting this in one torp slot gives you unlimited torps in the second slot. Y-Wing feels like it could use a buff, and it has few enough greens (without an astromech) that using this upgrade will need to be planned for.
• B-Wing. Basically nobody uses them as ordnance carriers anymore, and even beyond that, it's fallen far behind top-tier in the meta and could use a buff.
• K-Wing. Blech, yes, it gets buffed. Endless second torpedo slot and missiles. OTOH...K-Wings without TLT?! Maybe worth it...
• Nym. Blech, yes, he can take it. Endless missiles. This is the only real problem case jumping out to me. Would it be that bad, though?
• TIE Bomber. Needs buff badly.
• TIE Punisher. Needs buff badly.
• Assault gunboat. Can technically take it, sure, but why? It already has the action, with no penalty for taking it.
• Firespray with Slave-1 title. Haven't seen this on top tables in a while, can use a buff. Only one missile slot benefits from it.
• Scurrg H-6. Hmmmm. It's not in a bad spot, as with Rebel Nym above, would it be too much for it?
• M-12 Kimmy Schmidt. Kind of a whiff of a design, it never did get popular/take off. Of course, it already has reload, so....? No help here.

Missing anyone? Thoughts?

good lord no!

6 minutes ago, xanderf said:

Would it be that bad, though?

Yes.

You can't use an Action: card if you're stressed anyway so the first phrase is redundant.

Also, mostly irrelevant. The trouble most of those ships already have is staying alive long enough to pay off their high point costs, not dealing damage, particularly.

This doesn't help with either.

As people have stated, reload isn't actually that big a deal. It's neag when it comes to shaving off points, but it's not the be all end all (see also: the Kim)

The reason the gunboat is so great is because it has a half decent dial (goddamn bombers), the incredibly useful SLAM (which can create distance super well, unlike barrel roll), and most importantly a t-70 (with integrated) durability at a scant fraction of the cost

7health, two agi and shields (again, goddamn bomber) is no joke at 22 a pop with poons

The real problems are as follows

Y: no ept, no scanners, no poons

B: stupid expensive epts on named pilots, no scanners, no poons

Bomber: **** dial, no shields

Punisher: poor dial, **** awful cost for its primary and dies like a bwing

Kwing: too expensive for arc only, Miranda is dumb enough as is

SCURGG: doesn't need reload, doesn't care. Can scanners/DEADEYE/poon just fine

Kim: just scanners, hold the everything else. Don't need em

1 minute ago, thespaceinvader said:

You can't use an Action: card if you're stressed anyway so the first phrase is redundant.

Chopper says what?

Anyway, mostly designing for future-proofing, here - don't want some future tech like Primed Thrusters providing ability to take actions while stress more globally that could be used here. Also the reason the card is an 'Action' instead of adding it to the bar directly - I didn't want the K-Wing to be able to Advanced SLAM into a reload (since it would have weaps disabled anyway).

Quote

Also, mostly irrelevant. The trouble most of those ships already have is staying alive long enough to pay off their high point costs, not dealing damage, particularly.

This doesn't help with either.

I'm not sure I'd describe Y-Wings, B-Wings, TIE Bombers, or TIE Punishers as particularly 'high cost' or with particularly serious durability problems. Getting off a second shot is usually all they really need to feel worth their points, which theoretically Extra Munitions would address, but it's too expensive.

I don't know about you, but I find it stupid easy to 1/2 round B's/Ys/punishers and even SCURRG with today's high damage output builds

And if those ships can't scan/DEADEYE, it's even easier to avoid low ps locks at range 3 and then ps kill them the next round, often at range 1. Given their low ps, crap dials, and the hyper manueverability of the competition, it really is that simple

And the punisher is SUPER HIGH COST. It's one point short a Bwing for -1 red die and +1 health. Considering the drop between 3 and 2 reds, That's utter crap and garbage.

yeah the problem keeping old ships down is that the new ships are stupidly underpriced in Squad Points.

when a ps 2 gunboat with cruise missiles cost the same as a ps1 rookie x-wing pilot with nothing, we have a problem.

y-wings could be great with a +1 hull errata for example, and epts for some better pilots. really an errata to raise the squad point values of the op garbage makes more sense, but ffg wont do it for some reason

Having tested Quinn Jast and Kimogilas, I agree with the posters above. Reload is not a solution. You get killed before you can shoot again, as reload (costing you a precious action)+weapon disabled takes too long. The gunbloat is saved by its slam, giving it a chance to run and to cover enough ground while reloading (in some builds even shooting while reloading). The others can't do that, so reload does not help.

16 minutes ago, Managarmr said:

Having tested Quinn Jast and Kimogilas, I agree with the posters above. Reload is not a solution. You get killed before you can shoot again, as reload (costing you a precious action)+weapon disabled takes too long. The gunbloat is saved by its slam, giving it a chance to run and to cover enough ground while reloading (in some builds even shooting while reloading). The others can't do that, so reload does not help.

I think you are reading more into this than I'm intending.

I'm not throwing this out there as a 'finished - now these ships are fixed!' sort of upgrade. Just as an improvement to them that wouldn't over-power any particular build. (And FWIW, I think any of the problematic interactions with 'poons will likely be lessened when FFG inevitably nerfs the 'poon).

Seriously, it's a 0-pt torpedo. It's taking up a slot that wasn't ever going to be anything but Extra Munitions anyway - if that.

"Better" doesn't have to mean "perfect" off a single card.

The secret sauce that Y-'s and B's need to be competitive is a torpedo that doesn't shed its target lock and they need to be able to equip LRS.

I want 4 Autoblaster 'Harpoon' Y-'s to be a thing!

Or a range 1-2 torpedo, which makes acquiring the lock and still getting the shot much easier, or an attack [focus] torpedo, which removes the need for LRS.

I don't mind under-used ships getting a boost, but I'd rather it be in different directions than 'lets give everyone reload and LRS' because you just turn the ships into knock-off gunboats.

Ideas I've seen:

• Reinforce (locked forwards only)
• The ability to salvo-launch multiple ordnance at once

My idea for a punisher fix/buff:

Title - 3 pts - Juggernaut

All torpedo, bomb and missile upgrade cards you equip cost 2 points less.

26 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Or a range 1-2 torpedo, which makes acquiring the lock and still getting the shot much easier, or an attack [focus] torpedo, which removes the need for LRS.

I don't mind under-used ships getting a boost, but I'd rather it be in different directions than 'lets give everyone reload and LRS' because you just turn the ships into knock-off gunboats.

Ideas I've seen:

• Reinforce (locked forwards only)
• The ability to salvo-launch multiple ordnance at once

One thought I've had was:

Saturation Tactics: when a friendly ship is attacking a target you have locked at the range of one of your equipped [missile or torp] secondary weapons from you, you may discard that weapon to add the following based on its price:

2 or less: 1 blank

3 or 4: 1 eye

5 or more: 1 hit.

Probably too wordy for an upgrade card though. I thought about it as a TIE Bomber title.

Basically what Saturation Salvo SHOULD have been. BUt obviously it should have cost more if it had been.

2 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

Probably too wordy for an upgrade card though.

Maybe make it 'with a squad point cost equal to or greater than the [torpedo] or [missile] weapon being used' and stick to adding hits - that way, you can add a hit to a thread tracer with an ion torpedo but not the other way around

32 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Maybe make it 'with a squad point cost equal to or greater than the [torpedo] or [missile] weapon being used' and stick to adding hits - that way, you can add a hit to a thread tracer with an ion torpedo but not the other way around

Yeah, that works. It's not as interesting as the original concept I don't think, and doesn't encourage bringing things like Scramblers that are otherwise pretty lame, but it would at least fit into the cards.

More actions to take on top of Target Lock and Focus etc. is absolutely not going to help.

They need actionless mods/TLs/extra dice and/or better defense (Punishers especially).

We're having an OT tournament today, and I was thinking of bringing TIE bombers

The combination of required TL and expenses made everything unattractive...until I remembered unguided rockets exist

Now we all know how good advanced optics are, so it'd be nice to get some sort of free focus on Ordnance carriers (esp with unguided, proton rockets, and DEADEYE)

Targeting Assist

modification

Before declaring the target of your attack, you may assign one focus token to this ship. If you do, you cannot perform an attack unless it is with a MISSILE or TORPEDO secondary weapon.

You can only equip this card if you have TORPEDO TORPEDO in your upgrade bar

1 hour ago, ficklegreendice said:

The combination of required TL and expenses made everything unattractive...until I remembered unguided rockets exist

Yeah, I was half thinking of 5x Scimitars with UR and LWF in the next VASSAL league round for LOLs. Rolling 3 evades (usually) on 6 hull for all 5 ships...ain't bad. Not really competitive, though, with only 3-dice attacks.

The OP proposal would let you take those 5x Scimitars with this mod for reloads, concussion missiles, and guidance chimps, for reasonably reliable 4-dice attacks. The cadence remains poor - you certainly shoot more often with unguided rockets, but...4 dice attack vs 3, and with better mods...

1 hour ago, Rossetti1828 said:

More actions to take on top of Target Lock and Focus etc. is absolutely not going to help.

They need actionless mods/TLs/extra dice and/or better defense (Punishers especially).

Probably. But how do you get around ships like Nym or Miranda, then, which are ostensibly missile/torpedo carriers but also already really good?

What about something like this, instead:

1 hour ago, xanderf said:

Yeah, I was half thinking of 5x Scimitars with UR and LWF in the next VASSAL league round for LOLs. Rolling 3 evades (usually) on 6 hull for all 5 ships...ain't bad. Not really competitive, though, with only 3-dice attacks.

They're actually surprisingly good. Been trying them recently and they're really good for their cost. Come up against anything throwing stress or focus-denial and you'll spit feathers, but they're so tough for a heavy swarmer it's untrue. A ship which can reliably tank 2 4-hit missiles and probably not die is very disconcerting to the two-ship-squad crowd when he has 4 mates pegging range 3 secondary weapons back at you.

As an added bonus, the last game I had with them was facing a Ghost with a Sensor Jammer and Fenn Rau with M9-G8. The fact that unguided rockets are immune to enemy dice modification only comes up rarely but can really mess with people who rely on those tricks.

1 hour ago, xanderf said:

Ordnance Storage makes more sense as an upgrade name.

Suggested reword:

ACTION: Perform a free reload action. You may then acquire a target lock.

You may not equip this upgrade if your action bar has the [Reload] action, or have any secondary weapons other than [torpedo] or [missile] upgrades equipped.

18 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

They're actually surprisingly good. Been trying them recently and they're really good for their cost. Come up against anything throwing stress or focus-denial and you'll spit feathers, but they're so tough for a heavy swarmer it's untrue. A ship which can reliably tank 2 4-hit missiles and probably not die is very disconcerting to the two-ship-squad crowd when he has 4 mates pegging range 3 secondary weapons back at you.

As an added bonus, the last game I had with them was facing a Ghost with a Sensor Jammer and Fenn Rau with M9-G8. The fact that unguided rockets are immune to enemy dice modification only comes up rarely but can really mess with people who rely on those tricks.

Ordnance Storage makes more sense as an upgrade name.

Suggested reword:

ACTION: Perform a free reload action. You may then acquire a target lock.

You may not equip this upgrade if your action bar has the [Reload] action, or have any secondary weapons other than [torpedo] or [missile] upgrades equipped.

bombs are not secondaries, and I do like the blocking bombs, so no secondary weapons or bomb upgrades, also the edge case of LB and back side of Arc-Caster could present issues

On 4/20/2018 at 6:13 PM, AngryAlbatross said:

The secret sauce that Y-'s and B's need to be competitive is a torpedo that doesn't shed its target lock and they need to be able to equip LRS.

I want 4 Autoblaster 'Harpoon' Y-'s to be a thing!

that sounds like the absolute trash build, almost designed to make your opponent not enjoy the game. alpha strikes are horrible as is, harpoons are broken, and the only the keeping autoblaster balanced is the drawbacks in spamming them. if ys can just nuke you from a distance then close and finsh you... doesnt sound fun

I certainly wouldn't mind a reload action in the form you've presented. Like others have said, it's not a magic fix all, but I think it would still be a nice addition.

I currently run Plasma Torps on my Y-wings when I fly them (I guess because I like losing) and whilst I would never get more than 2 torps off, sometimes I only get one off, and therefore the 2pts I spent on extra munitions was wasted. Although reload is sometimes frivolous, it'd be nice to have the option to choose whether I need that second torp on the fly, rather than spending 2pts and hoping that they last long enough for it to be used.

A new TL keeping torp would probably help these ships more than a reload, however I don't see any harm in it being a thing. It could even be a torp only reload if need be.

20 hours ago, Vontoothskie said:

that sounds like the absolute trash build, almost designed to make your opponent not enjoy the game. alpha strikes are horrible as is, harpoons are broken, and the only the keeping autoblaster balanced is the drawbacks in spamming them. if ys can just nuke you from a distance then close and finsh you... doesnt sound fun

You are correct that it would be difficult to beat, but any ace player could beat it with good flying. TLT Y's are much harder to beat with good flying.

On 4/20/2018 at 1:43 PM, thespaceinvader said:

You can't use an Action: card if you're stressed anyway so the first phrase is redundant.

Slave I with Contraband Cybernetics could.