12 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

You've totally missed my point. It's not about who is or isn't a trained pilot. It's about who in the universe has been portrayed as only being able to pilot Planetary or Space but not both. I'm also not talking about assuming someone cannot fly by omission, but someone that is directly said to be able to pilot one type but not the other, because that should be a clue as to whether there really needs to be a division in the skill.

And I have already pointed out several of them. None of the names individuals I mentioned has been shown to be capable of piloting both. Bail Organa is only shown piloting a speeder, not a starship. He has others do that for him.

Darth Maul and Darth Vader are both only listed as having Piloting (Space) , even though we see Mail driving a speeder bike and Anakin piloting a Pod Racer.

And, as mentioned above, Finn didn’t know how to pilot starships either until Rose taught him, yet he did know how to drive a speeder (as seen in one of the TFA deleted scenes). Therefore, he did have The Piloting (Planetary) skill but not the Piloting (Space) skill. Commander Sato only has Piloting (Space) , not Piloting (Planetary) , the same with Vizago, Hondo Ohnaka, and Ketsu Onyo.

I would say General Veers is probably another example of Planetary but not Space.

His emphasis is on walkers and ground assault (sure, he doesn’t sit at the controls himself, but if I were statting him, he’d probably have a few ranks. Guy wasn’t always a general after all)

I’d also hold up the Snowspeeder as an airspeeder that certainly requires a different skillset from a starfighter.

The Snowspeeder has, in pretty much every instance I’ve seen (Rogue Squadron, Battlefront, Shadows of the Empire, etc) been portrayed as incapable of certain maneuvers. Because it stays aloft through repulsorlift, it can’t fly upside down, pull a loop-the-loop, or do a barrel roll. It’s more like a high-altitude landspeeder than a traditional fighter or bomber craft.

1 hour ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Darth Maul and Darth Vader are both only listed as having Piloting (Space) , even though we see Mail driving a speeder bike and Anakin piloting a Pod Racer.

Tramp, we have never communicated well. No matter how much I try, you tend to respond to arguments that are not the ones I'm making. I'll try one more time:

Your example shows the FFG take on it, and I'm saying the FFG take is wrong. I am not arguing based on what skills FFG gave the canon characters (I really don't care about their interpretations). That is not my argument. Both of those characters obviously should have the ability to pilot all types of craft, and that is part of my argument for a combined Piloting skill.

Again: show me a character in the fiction that actively expresses an inability to pilot one type of craft while showing aptitude in the other type of craft. I'll concede that Finn might be one, but such characters are exceptionally rare. In most of SW, if you can pilot, you can pilot just about anything.

1 hour ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Bail Organa is only shown piloting a speeder, not a starship. He has others do that for him.

From the Star Wars wiki: "For a politician, Organa had unusual skills such as the ability to pilot a starship by himself." (from The Clone Wars: Wild Space novel).

5 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

Tramp, we have never communicated well. No matter how much I try, you tend to respond to arguments that are not the ones I'm making. I'll try one more time:

Your example shows the FFG take on it, and I'm saying the FFG take is wrong. I am not arguing based on what skills FFG gave the canon characters (I really don't care about their interpretations). That is not my argument. Both of those characters obviously should have the ability to pilot all types of craft, and that is part of my argument for a combined Piloting skill.

Again: show me a character in the fiction that actively expresses an inability to pilot one type of craft while showing aptitude in the other type of craft. I'll concede that Finn might be one, but such characters are exceptionally rare. In most of SW, if you can pilot, you can pilot just about anything.

That too has already been posted by myself and @crashnburninc . Finn did not know how to pilot a starship until Rose taught him in TLJ, yet he did know how to pilot a land speeder in one of the deleted scenes from TFA.

Just now, Tramp Graphics said:

That too has already been posted by myself and @crashnburninc . Finn did not know how to pilot a starship until Rose taught him in TLJ, yet he did know how to pilot a land speeder in one of the deleted scenes from TFA.

You're talking about the one character that I have said might be an exception. I don't really care about him though, because TFA and everything beyond it is outside of my SW.

Just now, HappyDaze said:

You're talking about the one character that I have said might be an exception. I don't really care about him though, because TFA and everything beyond it is outside of my SW.

He’s not an exception. I would also have to say that Owen Lars almost certainly could not pilot a starship but certainly knee how to drive a speeder. The same with the afore mentioned General Veers as @abookfulblockhead said. So, no, Finn is not an “exception”. It is quite normal for someone to only know one type of piloting skill and not the other. It all depends upon what their needs are. A moisture Farmer is not likey to know how to fly a starship, neither is a “ground pounder, Army officer. They are both likely to know how to drive land vehicles though.

7 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

A moisture Farmer is not likey to know how to fly a starship

You do realize that our poster child moisture farmer is also a starfighter jock, right?

Also, none of those characters you mention are considered "pilots"--my argument again, is that anyone considered skilled/talented at vehicle operations in SW is usually omni-capable with all forms of vehicles. A unified Piloting skill would cover this.

9 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

You do realize that our poster child moisture farmer is also a starfighter jock, right?

Also, none of those characters you mention are considered "pilots"--my argument again, is that anyone considered skilled/talented at vehicle operations in SW is usually omni-capable with all forms of vehicles. A unified Piloting skill would cover this.

They don’t need to be “pilots” just named characters , as you requested. Don’t go moving goal posts. And also as mentioned, General Veers is a skilled Walker operator, and almost certainly cannot pilot a starship, as it is not his field of expertise, nor a necessary skill for an Army soldier. As for Luke, he is not your “average” moisture farmer. He was a preternaturally gifted pilot with Force potential. Owen Lars was just a moisture farmer and was content to be so, and would have no need to know how to fly starships, and, given what we know of his upbringing, most certainly did not know how to pilota starship. However, he would need to know how to drive a landspeeder.

What about BB-8?

Clearly, the little guy knows how to operate an X-wing. However, when he operates the AT-ST aboard the supremacy, he clearly rolls a despair that rips the armor plating off the top. He gets the job done, but it's clunky and inelegant.

3 minutes ago, abookfulblockhead said:

What about BB-8?

Clearly, the little guy knows how to operate an X-wing. However, when he operates the AT-ST aboard the supremacy, he clearly rolls a despair that rips the armor plating off the top. He gets the job done, but it's clunky and inelegant.

If only we had stats for him. ?

You couple probably use a standard astromech from the books as a starting point (which notably, only has Piloting (Space) as a skill).

2 minutes ago, abookfulblockhead said:

You couple probably use a standard astromech from the books as a starting point (which notably, only has Piloting (Space) as a skill).

Maybe, but yeah, you don’t see many astromech droids capable of driving landspeeders, Chopper being a rare exception.

1 hour ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Maybe, but yeah, you don’t see many astromech droids capable of driving landspeeders, Chopper being a rare exception.

You also don't see many droids trying to drive a landspeeder. We have a very limited sample size for a lot of these arguments.

I rule it as type of vessel. Otherwise as soon as you hit atmosphere, you're suddenly rolling a different skill yet in the same ship. The T-16/T-65 is just narrative fluff.

As for who is capable, that's the beauty of the system. Literally anyone can attempt any check since there are no Characteristics at 0. No skill training required. It makes sense given how necessary vehicular travel is.

Dangerous to bring up a real world perspective, but most adults can drive a car and have a base Agility of 2, but only race car or stunt drivers buy lots of ranks in Piloting(Cars). Anyone with basic life experience could probably fly a most starships from point to point, but only those with training can pull fancy maneuvers.

10 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

They don’t need to be “pilots” just named characters , as you requested. Don’t go moving goal posts. And also as mentioned, General Veers is a skilled Walker operator, and almost certainly cannot pilot a starship, as it is not his field of expertise, nor a necessary skill for an Army soldier. As for Luke, he is not your “average” moisture farmer. He was a preternaturally gifted pilot with Force potential. Owen Lars was just a moisture farmer and was content to be so, and would have no need to know how to fly starships, and, given what we know of his upbringing, most certainly did not know how to pilota starship. However, he would need to know how to drive a landspeeder.

Since you like to use FFG's game mechanics, note that Veers would have been an Imperial Academy Cadet, which means he has automatic access to Piloting (Space) as a career skill but has to take a talent to get the same access to Piloting (Planetary).

On the other hand, would you argue that Solo has no ability in Piloting (Planetary)? We never see him pilot anything like that in the films, and it could be argued that a smuggler would have no need to do so...

9 hours ago, HappyDaze said:

Since you like to use FFG's game mechanics, note that Veers would have been an Imperial Academy Cadet, which means he has automatic access to Piloting (Space) as a career skill but has to take a talent to get the same access to Piloting (Planetary).

On the other hand, would you argue that Solo has no ability in Piloting (Planetary)? We never see him pilot anything like that in the films, and it could be argued that a smuggler would have no need to do so...

I would venture that Veers doesn't have Piloting (Space) or access to the training, because he was a member of the Imperial Army not the Navy. Soldiers don't receive training on driving a Naval Ship (unless it's their job), however it's pretty much mandatory to learn how to drive multiple wheeled vehicles. As far as Solo, doesn't he have a speeder racing background? That would give him the Pilot(Planetary) skill, or at least the experience.

On a different note, I think location would make a greater difference over vehicle type. There would be a huge difference in successfully completing a specific aerial maneuver, such a loop or barrel roll, in a planet's atmosphere vice in space. You're dealing with things like stronger gravity/wind sheer/air friction; all of which would change the way your ship handles when compared to the same attempt in open space where none of those would be a factor.

If you don't want a skill govern them all (because it becomes too easy to upgrade), then you have to split using something...

Atmospheric vs Space seems like a good one, although it kind of force space piloting players to learn both....because at some point, you'll want to land in a town and therefor enter the atmosphere...

but you can learn more of one and just a small amount in the other to be functional (more than 0)

If you go with vehicle type, then like someone pointed out, then an Airspeeder is pretty similar to a ship

So you may think to make a piloting skill for every vehicle type.... (or group) ...but you have about 10 vehicle types which cause too much diversity...

The other one would group Wheeled and Tracked Vehicles, Walkers and Landspeeders together (vehicle subject to the terrain) and then Airspeeders, Battleships, Capital Ships, Cruisers, Freighters and Transports, Gunships, Starfighters and Shuttles and Space Station together (flying vehicles)

Seems less trouble to choose Atmospheric.... but maybe it should have been 3 brackets..... ground vehicles which cover the first 3, then small ships and large ships....

or use 4.... Land vehicle (first 3) with Silhouette under X value, same with Silhouette higher than X value and same for flying vehicles

How often do you have to roll a Skill check to land at a spaceport, or take off for that matter? Odds are, the landing sequence is normally done on autopilot or at least something any decent pilot could do as a maneuver/incidental, vice an action. I would venture that most spacer pilots or smugglers don't even need PP skills (unless they are always the group driver), when most of what they are doing is covered by PS. It makes sense for "immersion" as well as a gaming mechanic.

Well, for instance, landing in the middle of the forest on a planet with bad weather....thunder etc....

Like Luke on Dagobah....lmao

On 2018-04-25 at 4:45 AM, HappyDaze said:

Since you like to use FFG's game mechanics, note that Veers would have been an Imperial Academy Cadet, which means he has automatic access to Piloting (Space) as a career skill but has to take a talent to get the same access to Piloting (Planetary).

On the other hand, would you argue that Solo has no ability in Piloting (Planetary)? We never see him pilot anything like that in the films, and it could be argued that a smuggler would have no need to do so...

I just assumed Veers is an NPC. Even so, there’s a difference between having a career skill and putting ranks in it. Just like how Smuggler doesn’t get piloting Planetary, but I suspect Han would have ranks (Pretty sure there’s a brief clip of him pulling some kind of crazy stunt in a landspeeder from one of the Solo previews).

in either case, I contend that were I to stat out General Veers (either as a PC or NPC) I would give him ranks in Piltoing (Planetary) but not Piloting (Space). And that seems to be the general consensus here.

On 4/25/2018 at 5:45 AM, HappyDaze said:

Since you like to use FFG's game mechanics, note that Veers would have been an Imperial Academy Cadet, which means he has automatic access to Piloting (Space) as a career skill but has to take a talent to get the same access to Piloting (Planetary).

On the other hand, would you argue that Solo has no ability in Piloting (Planetary)? We never see him pilot anything like that in the films, and it could be argued that a smuggler would have no need to do so...

On 4/25/2018 at 2:57 PM, crashnburninc said:

I would venture that Veers doesn't have Piloting (Space) or access to the training, because he was a member of the Imperial Army not the Navy. Soldiers don't receive training on driving a Naval Ship (unless it's their job), however it's pretty much mandatory to learn how to drive multiple wheeled vehicles. As far as Solo, doesn't he have a speeder racing background? That would give him the Pilot(Planetary) skill, or at least the experience.

On a different note, I think location would make a greater difference over vehicle type. There would be a huge difference in successfully completing a specific aerial maneuver, such a loop or barrel roll, in a planet's atmosphere vice in space. You're dealing with things like stronger gravity/wind sheer/air friction; all of which would change the way your ship handles when compared to the same attempt in open space where none of those would be a factor.

1 minute ago, abookfulblockhead said:

I just assumed Veers is an NPC. Even so, there’s a difference between having a career skill and putting ranks in it. Just like how Smuggler doesn’t get piloting Planetary, but I suspect Han would have ranks (Pretty sure there’s a brief clip of him pulling some kind of crazy stunt in a landspeeder from one of the Solo previews).

in either case, I contend that were I to stat out General Veers (either as a PC or NPC) I would give him ranks in Piltoing (Planetary) but not Piloting (Space). And that seems to be the general consensus here.

@crashnburninc and @abookfulblockhead nailed it. General Veers, is an Army officer, not a Naval officer. As such, he would not learn how to fly, given that it is not part of the Army's job. On top of that, he's an NPC , not a PC . As for Han Solo, We see him piloting speeders in the new movie, Solo: a Star Wars Story, so yes, he would have both Piloting skills.

3 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

On top of that, he's an NPC , not a PC .

In-universe, from the points of view of characters within the setting, it should make no difference. In truth, I strongly prefer games where it makes no real difference (like the WEG D6 SW).

11 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

In-universe, from the points of view of characters within the setting, it should make no difference. In truth, I strongly prefer games where it makes no real difference (like the WEG D6 SW).

I agree there, but that's neither here nor there. As for In Universe, as I and the afore mentioned others have said, General Veers training was Army training, not Naval training. As someone who served in the US Army, I can assureldy tell you that Army training is very different from Navy training, and even within the Army, not every soldier gets the same training. YEs, we all get the same basic training in boot camp, but after that, we each get trained in our respective Military Operational Specialities. This is also true in Star Wars. General Veers was trained in ground combat , He was an Army officer, primarily trained in armored warfare (walkers, tanks, etc.). As such, he would have had no need for training in piloting spacecraft, and would not be trained in such. And, while the Imperial Academy Cadet universal spec has Piloting (Space) as a career skill, that does not mean that every Imperial Academy graduate is skilled at piloting spacecraft. Just because a skill is in your list of career skills does not mean you actually have ranks in that skill. So, even though General Veers would be an Academy graduate, does not automatically mean he learned how to fly starships. And, given his chosen career path within the Imperial military, it is highly unlikely that he would have learned to fly starships.

14 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

In-universe, from the points of view of characters within the setting, it should make no difference. In truth, I strongly prefer games where it makes no real difference (like the WEG D6 SW).

I’m not sure what your point is here. I think it’s been laid clear that whether or not he’s a PC or NPC, he only has ranks in Piloting (Planetary).

You asked for a named character who appears to be proficient in operating one type of vehicle, but not the others. Most people seem to agree that Veers fits that bill, regardless of the particulars of his build. But even if Veers has the “Imperial Academy Cadet” tree, there’s nothing that obligates him to take piloting (space) ranks. I would guess that he focused instead on leadership and knowledge (warfare).

TBH, I don't recall ever seeing Veers personally piloting anything himself. He may not warrant having piloting at all.

I also thought that all imperial officers had a unified academy curriculum and only had a branch assignment after graduation.