When making a Ebb or Flow power check while making a skill check, does the character have to succeed with the skill check for the results of Ebb or Flow check to take effect?

Does the Force power say anything about "on a successful check"?

I'm pretty sure the answer is "no."

Combined Force power checks usually introduce a third resolution axis into the mix (Success/Failure, Advantage/Threat, Light/Dark). In that, even if you fail at whatever check you're attempting, you can still use the Force points generated to fuel some tangential effect. And seeing as how the Ebb & Flow effects are tangential to begin with, it doesn't really make much sense to require a successful check to use the Force points you generate.

35 minutes ago, awayputurwpn said:

Does the Force power say anything about "on a successful check"?

I'm pretty sure the answer is "no."

Combined Force power checks usually introduce a third resolution axis into the mix (Success/Failure, Advantage/Threat, Light/Dark). In that, even if you fail at whatever check you're attempting, you can still use the Force points generated to fuel some tangential effect. And seeing as how the Ebb & Flow effects are tangential to begin with, it doesn't really make much sense to require a successful check to use the Force points you generate.

Thanks. That's how I've been playing it. I was just rereading the combined force power check rules in the core book, and suddenly felt confused.

Ah yeah I see, the general rules state that, unless stated otherwise, combined Force power checks need both FPs and 1 uncancelled success to "succeed." But that's a contingency placed on check success , not on the activation of a Force power or the usage of Force Points.

IOW, the Success needs a FP in order to count, but the FPs don't necessarily need any Successes in order to be used.

53 minutes ago, awayputurwpn said:

Ah yeah I see, the general rules state that, unless stated otherwise, combined Force power checks need both FPs and 1 uncancelled success to "succeed." But that's a contingency placed on check success , not on the activation of a Force power or the usage of Force Points.

IOW, the Success needs a FP in order to count, but the FPs don't necessarily need any Successes in order to be used.

Yeah, that line in the general rules is for when you're trying to activate a specific effect.

Enhance would be a similar case where any Force points you generate from the power when using it in conjunction with a skill check are independent of whether the base roll succeeded or not; with Enhance and Ebb/Flow, it's entirely possibly that the user could turn a failed skill check into a success simply by converting their Force points into successes.

You understood my confusion exactly, @awayputurwpn .

"Unless specifically stated otherwise, the character must generate enough Force Points to activate the Force talent or Force power's basic power (or appropriate control upgrades) and must generate at least one uncanceled Success for the check to succeed (see page 31 for more information on passing or failing checks). This entire process counts as making a single check."

By calling the whole thing a "single check", and saying it did not succeed unless both the skill and force aspects succeeded, it looks a bit like a failure of either implied a failure of both. I failed to remember this, earlier, text:

"A Force power is always “successfully” activated, even if the check does not generate any Force points to spend on the power."

FYI, the Order 66 podcast said that Ebb/Flow works regardless of whether the skill check succeeds or not.

On 18/04/2018 at 7:19 PM, Donovan Morningfire said:

Yeah, that line in the general rules is for when you're trying to activate a specific effect.

Enhance would be a similar case where any Force points you generate from the power when using it in conjunction with a skill check are independent of whether the base roll succeeded or not; with Enhance and Ebb/Flow, it's entirely possibly that the user could turn a failed skill check into a success simply by converting their Force points into successes.

Except enhance has a line it's description that states that the calculation on success is done prior to the ability part of the checks success, the exact wording escapes me but it is quoted in either the power or in the description of the combined check. The question that was asked on the order66 podcast was either mine or also asked by myself, in other words, according to Sam Stewart it bucks the rules on how a combined check works as per the core rulebook, with no wording in the power or errata to back that up. RAW if the ability check fails, so does the force power, Sam's answer is the opposite of this, so I guess RAI and RAW are at odds with each other here, assuming Sam's answer is correct.

In fact I'm still waiting on the promised errata on the power because there is something that is very weird about how it works

Basic Ebb power w/o range upgrade RAW affects all targets at engaged range , which makes sense as the magnitude upgrades allow you to remove targets from the effect

The two control upgrades for Ebb that grant threat and failure correspondingly each specify that they affect engaged OPPONENTS. So for these RAW the magnitude upgrades are pointless.

Moving onto Flow, and it's corresponding control upgrades these work on yourself only

Magnitude allow you to remove targets (any) from the effect.

Now it gets weird , RAW the Range upgrade changes the am these effects to hit all characters at short range, so your Flow effects which previously affected only yourself , now affect everyone at short range, the Ebb control effects which previously affected only opponents at engaged range now affect everyone at short range, opponent or ally.

Of course this doesn't make sense, and was the subject of my question that Sam Stewart has answered as follows.

1/ Flow only works on yourself, so the range upgrade doesn't work on it (this needs to be made cleare so requires errata'd because nowhere does it say Range is Ebb only). This does make sense though as Flow would work consistently then.

2/ He said that range was originally worded this way and should be worded that it affects as all opponents at short range instead of all characters . He sounded confused as he mentions why would you use the power if it debuffed your allies at this point and promised an errata, to clear things up, the errata has come and gone with other things mentioned but not this. Magnitude makes it clear that you can remove people from the effect , why would you do this for just opponents.

So to compare the two versions

RAW we have the Basic power of Ebb hits everyone at engaged and when upgraded by range hits everyone at short range unless magnitude excepts them

The two control upgrades hit all opponents at engaged until upgraded by range then hits all characters at range, unless magnitude is used to except a target

The range upgrade also affects Flow as well, extending the ability to all targets in short range instead of just you.

Also according to the Core combined check rules, if the ability check fails, so does the force power.

Some of these options just don't ring true like range affecting Flow, and having the power affect opponents when not range upgraded but affect everyone when range upgraded.

Now onto Sam's version

Basic power works exactly the same until upgraded by range where it now only affects opponents

The two control upgrades only ever affect opponents.

The power activates even on a failed check

Now this doesn't ring true either as Magnitude now only has a use for the Basic power of Ebb as long as it isn't range upgraded, and is useless for both control upgrades range upgraded or not.

The errata we need for this to be true is that they need to explain range only works on Ebb, and only works on opponents and the power activates regardless of ability check success.

Now I actually believe there is a third option and that was Sam was unprepared for the question and my reasons behind it, as his answer doesn't take into account why magnitude is necessary (as his response seems to only have it necessary For the Basic power used at engaged range, which seems pointless as from a KISS point of view it would be simpler to remove magnitude and just have Ebb affect opponents)

For either option to be correct it would make better sense and also from a KISS point of view for Ebb AND it's control upgrades to affect either all opponents or all characters , range upgraded or not. For the magnitude upgrades to make sense then it requires that EBB hits opponents and allies equally, whether engaged or upgraded to short range.

Assuming that last one is correct then we still need an errata to explain that it works on a failed ability check, and that range only applies to ebb, and that either the range upgrade is all opponents and the Basic power is all opponents (rendering magnitude completely useless), or the control upgrades are all characters in engaged range (this last option actually fixes the power to work consistently with the least amount of changes, Ie changing the wording of the control upgrades from all opponents to all characters fixes the whole power, except the combined check rule)

So regardless of which way it is meant to work from the above it clearly needs errata'd because the power is not consistent in either RAW or the way Sam describes it.

IMO and the one that myself and my own GM agreed on , for what it's worth, is that until we see an errata, it follows the rules for combined checks in the core and that the the ebb control upgrades should read all characters instead of all opponents. This seems to be the most logical answer, but with so many wording mistakes and the possibility that it works contrary to combined check rules, who knows how it is supposed to work.

sorry for the verbose answer, it just annoyed me that Sam's answers caused me to have more questions that went unanswered because the questions could not be asked and the errata that was promised never came. The question has gone unanswered by support even though I've asked them about 7-10 times.

Ultimately RAW we have the Basic power of Ebb 's Basic power working one way(all characters), the control upgrades working another (all opponents) and Flow 's Basic power (only yourself), until range upgraded then they hit all characters

Sam has Ebb basic power (all characters), control upgrade (all opponents) Flow (yourself only) until you apply range upgrade then it's all opponents (changing how the Basic power works), Flow doesn't get range upgraded , and it doesn't follow the rules for combined checks

If you apply my logic I have it that the EBB powers across the board affect all characters in range, then it makes sense and Magnitude also makes sense, this still leaves the question about combined checks as mentioned earlier in the thread, Does the power fail on a failed ability check, as per the core rules?

On 4/23/2018 at 4:16 PM, syrath said:

In fact I'm still waiting on the promised errata on the power

You must be new here...

2 hours ago, Jonas Shaaf said:

You must be new here...

Not that new , my point was though that since that was mentioned in the o66 episode we have had an F&D errata and it included stuff from the same book but nothing on ebb/flow, which to me indicates RAW is correct (and to be honest this isn't going to be "probably" true either, since that means that the powers all target differently until range upgraded then they all work the same including Flow , it also fails when the ability check is nt a success, contrary to what Sam said on the episode, also means magnitude is useless on the Ebb control powers, until you range upgrade them, you can go round in circles with this because RAW, KISS it isnt)

Or perhaps they just couldn't work out an errata for such a complex issue in time for the F&D Errata release.

On 4/23/2018 at 5:16 PM, syrath said:

Now I actually believe there is a third option and that was Sam was unprepared for the question

I think this is clearly the case.

2 hours ago, TheSapient said:

I think this is clearly the case.

However the guys over at O66 state they give the questions days in advance

7 minutes ago, Random Bystander said:

However the guys over at O66 state they give the questions days in advance

I believe that is true. But people forget or get confused what they are told. Sam probably just misunderstood what his team told him. His answers simply didn't make sense.

4 hours ago, TheSapient said:

I believe that is true. But people forget or get confused what they are told. Sam probably just misunderstood what his team told him. His answers simply didn't make sense.

For what it's worth the answers about combined checks seemed to take into account the wording on the page and not the core rules on combined checks. I can however get behind this power working on a fail, what I cannot get my head round is where a power works different ways depending on how it is upgraded